I got a 95 3.4 A4 parts car for our 85 2.8 A4 project.

Obviously the 3.4 is going in!!

Gotta check the rear ratio, might use that and change to gen4 wheels. Gen4 rear is still drums, would get LS1 discs later. I can do that, right?

What rear is in the gen4 and is it stronger than the 85?

Seats are trashed in the gen4, so I can't use them. The 85s are good anyway.

What else in in this car I can use???

Plans are for a daily driver when my boy turns 16, will autocross and drag race for fun.

And if you need anything, the 95 got a tree in the passenger door HARD but the rest of the car is still pretty OK, so let me know what you need.

Will trade parts for 5-sp swap parts or front fenders and nose for the 85.

thanks!
kevin

 

Sounds like you did your research, and listed everything swapable.

If you are just doing the block "steath" swap, their are some upper engine parts I wouldn't mind having that are 3.4l specific.

PM me if you are willing to sell them.

I know the whole rear axle can be swapped, but is wider, then your tires will stick out, or have to use 4thgen rims, and adapters on front.

 

Thanks for the speedy response!

I know about the rear end width issue. If it's a good ratio, I guess it'll be worth the expense. Especially if it's a stronger rear and if the gen4 drums are better than gen3 for now. Do you know?

As for the "Stealth" engine swap, all I know about this is from Karl's article. I want the best performance for a reasonable amount of effort . Stealth or show doesn't really matter. What should I use to get that result? Anything that's left over, you got dibs.

thanks!
kevin

 

The 4th gen axle is stronger only because of the axleshafts. Your '85 has 26 spline axleshafts, all 90-up 3rd gen's got 28 spline axleshafts. 89 was the changeover year; most '89's have 26 spline, a few have 28 spline. All post-84 gears are 7.5" ring gears, 82-84 were 7.625" (a bit larger), but they're basically the same strength, and share the same bolt pattern.

The driveshaft should be interchangeable; but, you wouldn't gain anything from it, except maybe as a spare?

I think past that, nothing else major is reuseable. A few people on the "body & interior" forum have swapped in the 4th gen dashboard, dashpanel, and console, but man, that looks like one hell of a headache.

 

Thanks, Tom!

What's a 9-bolt rear? Is that a v8-only thing? And wasn't there a Dana 44 in some Camaros?

No emissions in FL, BTW. I'll still use a cat but would like to reduce other plumbing mess if possible. Tho this car isn't too bad. Ditching the air injection on my Mercury made it SO much nicer to change sparkplugs, or do just about anything.....

cya
kevin

 

does it have pwr windows and locks? i need the switch brezels for both driver and passanger door panels

 

There wasn't any dana rear in 3rd or 4th gen f-bodies; maybe 1st or 2nd gens? Not sure about those.

A 9 bolt rear is a borg-warner rear; it's stronger, but it's very - no, extremely limited in the availability of rear gear ratios. It only came on some v8's. It's stronger then our 10 bolt, but since there's so few gears available (and most are geared high, like 2.77 and 3.08), it's usually not a rear axle that people want.

If you're worried about the strength, keep in mind our exact same axles were placed behind the v8's. There were no strength changes between the axles of I4, V6, and V8 Firebird/Camaros... the only strength changes were the ones I listed above, and they went by "year", and not "engine size".

As far as changing over to discs; did you want to bolt the discs to the drum axle? The drum axle has a different flange on the axle tubes. It's a rectangular shape, the disc axle has a square flange. It's been said that the rectangular flange could be cut down and redrilled into the pattern for rear discs. Also, on rear disc axles, the axleshaft hubs are a bit wider (extend out more widely after the lug nuts end). The discs won't fit over the drum axleshafts. Guys have had to get the axleshaft hubs turned down at machine shops to get the disc to fit over them. (This was usually done when they found the stronger 28 spline axleshafts off a rear drum car, and wanted to install the shafts on their disc brake axle.) One innovative guy put the car in the air on 4 jackstands, started the engine, and put the car in drive... he then ground off the necessary amount of metal from the axleshaft hubs using an angle grinder, as the car turned the hubs. Sounds a bit risky; don't know how fast those axleshafts were spinning!

(laughs) Then again, I'm not sure about the axle housing's construction of a 4th gen. They might use the same flanges on the tubes for disc and drum... and the axleshafts might have the same hub diameter; not sure. I do know (as we all do) that the whole rear will bolt under, not sure about how the housings differ (besides in overall length of the tubes).

There was some kind of extensive message early this year on the transmission & drivetrain forum about the 9bolt rears. I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

Thanks Tom!

I just figure that someday I'll be spending $$ rebuilding the rear, and putting in a posi, and upgrading brakes, and so on, and I just want to start with the best foundation. Not actually worried about breaking a rear.... Sounds like a 9-bolt isn't for me!

Now when I get a T-5 in there, sounds like I may have some worrying to do about the trans! I wonder if the V6 bellhousing can be redrilled to take a V8 trans, and if any other issues will result.

cya
kevin

PS-- 89cmro, I'm pretty sure absolutely nothing on (or near!) the passenger door is useable, but I'll look at both and let you know. Thanks!

 

Different input shaft on the V8 t5 vs the V6... not sure about length, but finding a 26 spine 9 5/8"s clutch can't be easy... Ours are 14 spline, or maybe it was the other way around... I DO know we don't use the 10.5" clutch that the V8's use!

 

The swap that karl speaks of is the "stealth" swap. If your car is already mpfi which an 85 should be, you wont gain much buy the hords of wiring to convert it to sfi. I took my truck from TBI to SFI and was worth it. Mpfi to SFI is not really worth it. I also wanted to ditch a distrib, and get a cool looking intake. Its 85% show truck.

I forgot about the driveshaft, unless its aluminum, or lighter, its 50/50.

But if you do the "stealth" swap, I will be willing to take some of them upper/front engine parts off your hands.

 

Thanks Dale! I'm definitely going stealth; don't want to reengineer the car. Plug'n'play is for me! Drop me a note with your needs.

Thanks for the trans tech, Doward! I guess I'll wake that dog when I come to it. Or something.

kevin

 

Here's that in-depth message about the BW 9-bolt rear I was talking about: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=158612

And as for making your 10-bolt stronger, check out this awesome article by Dan Burk (ws6transam on thirdgen.org): http://www.ws6transam.org/10bolt.html

 

Give a shout if I can assist better when ya get going.
Ya need keep the OLD 700R4 tranny, as that later model one is all computer controlled (& way stronger yep, but computer controlled).
Ya can beef up the current tranny.
My 700R4 tranny is & it works wonderful!

When ya remove the engine, disconnect the wiring harness, don't cut it.
Save it as a one piece removal item for selling.
The new style CC fits perfect on the older 1985 exhaust (atleast it did on mine!)
See if ya can modify the newer exhaust system to your 1985 chassis.
The newer 3.4 "Y" pipe fits after modification.
Just make the new 3.4 "Y" pipe match the bends on the older 1985 style "Y" pipe & also swap in the "I" pipe from the later model ride, too.
It's larger.
1985 "I" pipe is 2 1/4"
Great score.
Definetly insert the 4th gen console.
It's a simple remove & swap in item!

Tranny swap is a major project for those with lots of proper knowledge & shop tools & a lift.
Upgrade the current 700R4 & be done with it!
IF ya gonna play with axle, upgrade the current housing as it fits & it's not to expensive.
BE AWARE a great rear axle can cost close to over $1,000!
Certainly worth it, but at what cost in comparison to other car projects?
My current axle with no work whatever is doing fine.
NO I am not doing neutral drops at 4,000RPMS every second to test current rear alxe duribility!

5 words or less, this current old 1985 chassis with 130,000 miles on it, handles the 3.4 upgrade just perfectly! I am now at stage of rebuilding front end steering linkage, just did shocks/struts & a recent replace old front brake hoses-still need do the new rear brake hose swap & rebleed system.
Enjoy your fun project!

 

Thanks Karl, for your response and your great writeup!

I'm not new to modifying cars, just new to 3rd gens and V6-60s. I've had gen1 and gen2 400 Firebirds and gen2 TransAms, among many other money pits. The trans swap will be no big deal.

I might just sell the gen4 rear and keep what I have, since the ratios are likely to be the same. If the young'un wants 17" wheels he can get a job and pay for them himself. (another 6 months til he's old enough to work) I'll just put new tires on the 15" Z-28 wheels.

The 3.4 has 156k miles, so we'll rebuild it.

OK, off to work!

thanks!
kevin

 

I had a 1968 Firebird 400/TH400 back in the early 80's Drag raced it in Van Nuys often.
Never lost a race!
I know what ya mean about those rides, as I still have my 67 RS/SS 4-Speed Camaro Convert & 68 Camaro Secretary Special (6 cyl/Auto/PS/Radio/Console).
Good luck finding a rebuild kit for the 3.4 mill.
AS AN FYI, ya can have a NEW 3.4 for $1800 from dealer.
PERHAPS ya can sell so much off this late model ride as to just buy a new 3.4 & install that.
I haven't seen any/nor prices for rebuilding kits for the 3.4 yet.
Top end of the 3.4 is just a head job, easy simple.
3.4 heads are unique, too.
The bottom end & the larger pistons & etc, are all unique.
We had one guy that did do the tranny swap (auto to manual).
He works at a dealership & had access to those secrets & parts tools.
He planned for 6 months, then jumped in & did it in several days.
I saw the finished swap & man, did it look correct!
Operated properly, too!
Any tips, give a shout, glad to offer what I can, yet, ya know each mill swap, is a custom job.

Do you own the GM Performance Parts book yet?
GREAT $6.95 investment for the GM pics & the GM knowledge.
Very valuable resource for many questions.
I'm not suggesting ya buy the rebuild parts from GM, as those prices are $$$$$$, but the knowledge from the 60* V-6 picture captions is very invaluable.
Have fun planning!
Yes, the end result does look like what ya started with (an 85 2.8).
Kinda boring, but mash ya foot into the pedal & it's worth it!

 

I have old editions of the GM performance parts book and the Chevy Power book from when I was a Chevy parts guy. I'll be getting the newest ones soon.

This car is a learning project for my stepson, so he's got an opportunity to learn how to rebuild an engine. I'm afraid I don't have time to get him involved in my own projects very often, as they usually have to be done in two _days_ whereas we have two _years_ to do the Camaro.

Besides, I didn't pay much more for the whole 95 than I would for a reman crank kit for the 2.8....

And if the 3.4 holds up like a 5.0 Ford does, all it'll need is rings, bearings, oil pump, timing set and a valvejob. Engines don't wear out like they used to....

cya
kevin

 

Just re-reading that message; mixed up my info. That first line SHOULD say:

Also, on rear DRUM axles, the axleshaft hubs are a bit wider. The ROTORS won't fit over the drum axleshaft hubs.

Sorry 'bout that.

Edit again: My 2.8 has over 250,000 miles on it; hasn't been rebuilt yet, so I think you'd be good with the 3.4.

 

That's ok, I figured that's what you meant....



BTW, my friend tried to turn down the axle flanges on his Mustang with a flat file while running the engine to turn the axles.... That file was never the same. And it was MY file!

kevin

edit: can't type! And also BTW, I know of an 86 2.8 5-sp parts car locally, I'm just wearing the guy down on his price a bit. Unfortunately the 5-sp swap and the Z-28-clone GFX are about the only good parts on the car. Oh, and a gage cluster w/tach. That'll be next after I clear the 95 out of the garage.....

 

From the brief reading of your replies, you got this idea nailed shut & solid as a rock.
Great ideas & great scrounging & parts hunting.
The V-6 tach & gauge is specific, so definetly grab that V-6 set up.
You know lots of people with all the good stuff.
Who gave ya the back door key to Smokey's Best Damn Garage!

 

Tom--

I guess this is where I got the idea there were Dana44s in 3rd gens. From the 9-bolt post you linked:


Glad I didn't completely imagine it!



kevin

 

I wish I had the space to do all this car playing. grrr

BTW, Indy, I sent you some emails last night. Did you get them?? Let me know if you didn't.

 

Dale--

Got 'em! Great pic! Will let you know what I've got.

Space? What's that? Yeah, I've got a 2-car garage and a 4-car driveway. And the neighbors aren't complaining about the Camaro in the back yard. But it's pretty crowded here! Especially since my kitchen cabinets are presently residing in the garage too! I hope to have the kitchen back together this weekend....

cya!
kevin

 

I hope to have
Floor ceramic tile installed
shower tiled
Bathroom tiled,
Kitchen counter top tiled,
hardwood oak floor refinished
Trim bottom of several doors
3 french doors installed
4 ceiling fans installed
multiple wall switches replaced
toilet & sink installed
pedistal sink installed
garbage disposal reinstalled
clean house trim
plant flowers
fix damaged walls due to installing 3 french doors
finish painting (inside & out)
Approval of Los Angeles Building & Safety on construction & plumbing work
within 3 weeks so I can relist house for sale & retire again!
Until I get another house to do same thing to.
PS I'm on the downhill of this house project, now!
Kitchen installed!
Two day job!
Engine swapping about 1 month (NOT JUST WEEKENDS!) of "solid" work & customizing for personalization of workmanship.

Did this 4th gen come with power seat?
That swaps, also!

 

LOL! Tell ya what, you do my house and I'll do your cars! I can do the motor and 5-sp in 2 weekends, tops, with a factory appearance. I've been working on the kitchen for 6 weeks, part time!!

My wife is _not_ happy!

kevin

 

I'm actually considering buying a $100 car just to drive around while I weld that rear quarter panel onto my car. https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=108890 I just need to see how much it'll be to add to my insurance. That way I can leave the car in the garage and still be able to get parts, get food, and most importantly, go to work!

 

I can do the motor and 5-sp in 2 weekends, tops, with a factory appearance. I've been working on the kitchen for 6 weeks, part time!!

Both accomplishments, when done are very impressive.

Eating out lately?? Ha Ha!

 

What air intake are you using, Karl? I assumed it was adapted from the 3.4 but I see it goes to the wrong side....

Can/Should I use the 3.4 air intake? I've heard the 2.8 is really restrictive. True?

See pics of my parts car here: http://public.fotki.com/vfr700f2

My kitchen is there too!

I'll get pics of the 85 up asap.


Dale, I've got your plastic doohickey. Not sure which way I wanna go on the coil module. Let's talk.

cya
kevin

 

My induction system (air/fuel) is all 1985 issued.
I engineered my 3.4 swap plans so to pass the smog test with ease.
I come up to the second CA smog test on the Firebird very very soon!
I find the 2.8/3.1 induction system to be the least of the aggrivation of the swap.
IT'S THE DAMN ORIGINAL ISSUED 1985 EXHAUST "Y" PIPE THAT SUCKS UP A BIG HIGH REV-ABILITY!

Retain the 3.4 issued "Y" pipe in your swap.
It's the bend to the 3rd gen CC location that is the part that needs modification on the 3.4 "Y" pipe
My 3.4 "Y" pipe I got (with my second 1995 3.4 mill) looks brand new at only 50K miles.
That 3.4 "Y" pipe goes on the Firebird I hope soon!

No you cannot mix & match the 3.4 & the 2.8 air/fuel induction System.
You insert the 3.4 INJECTORS INTO the 2.8 fuel rail then just reassemble the 2.8 induction system onto the 3.4 engine.
YES you use the 2.8 bottom intake as the 3.4 bottom intake does NOT match UP to the 3.4 upper intake.
This swap requires you to decide from the beginning if it's to be easy or a very custom engine swap.
I chose the very easy engine swap receipe & no regrets at all.
Everything fit & everything works & Firebird is reliable enough for the car to be trusted with Wife & 2 year old Son.
PLUS the working AC KICKS ICE COLD!

 

I'm not reading ANY of the previous. Here's what will swap.


Complete interior including dash. To use the heater/AC vents you'll need to put the 4th gen heater box in the 3rd gen while you have the engine out for the swap. THe door panels will also fit. The middle console will fit. The rear end, and rear sway bar (kinda unsure on the sway bar) will fit. So will the rear shocks and springs (betcha they're a lil stiffer...). Complete drivetrain of course. You can even keep the SFI if you want to do some wiring.

About the rear: It will fit, but it'll be around 1' wider on each side. You can actually convert IT to LT1 disk for ~$400. Don't go with LS1 discs. If you hang around with the big boys enough, you'll understand why even LS1 guys are converting to LT1 disc rears.

That's pretty much it. Oh yah, also, if you feel like doin a lil bit of fab, you can even fit the interior panels into the 3rd.

 

Thanks 350, for the brake tech and shocks/springs. Good stuff!

If you'd read any posts above you could have saved typing the rest, as you'd know most of the interior is demolished and I'm not out for the bling anyway.

later
kevin

 

Oh, Karl, I meant the air filter ducting. I understand about the rest of the intake/injection. I haven't looked under the hood of the 85 in a long time, but I don't recall the filter box and air intake looking like the pic you posted above.

kevin

 

THAT"S MY HOKEY AIR INLET SET UP I COBBLED TOGETHER FROM STUFF IN MY GARAGE & SWAP MEETS!
I change that back to stock for passing smog!
PS IT DOES HELP ESPECIALLY AT THOSE HIGH SPED PASSES ON FREE (over 75 MPH).
My stock set up on now & I can feel air flow inlet restriction.
No big deal at all I just await til I pass smog to go back to more air into engine flow.

 

DAMN!!! That car got waxed good, geesh.

I sent you a pm Indy.

 

I have a v-6 t-5 and bellhousing that i would trade for you v-8 one if it in decent condition the v-6 was rebuilt 50,000 miles ago and has mostly highway miles on it.

 

85sc-- thanks, but I don't have any V8 stuff.

kevin

 

Indy no prob up in the post it sounded like you had a v-8 t5 and wanted to mount it to the v6 thanks for the reply.