Shribe

iTrader: (1)

1989 IROC, few weeks ago had an episode where turned key and nothing, turned it a few more times and it started. Now turn the key and fuel pump goes but go to start and not even a click. I checked the archives and checked battery (12.54 or so) and ground and even shook the car and pounded on the starter. Still won't start. Is it the starter? How can I know for sure? I don't want to replace it and still be stuck! What other things should I check?
Thanks
Shribe

Danno

Do you have a pellet in the key indicating you have the VATS system. If so, check the "security" light and see if it stays on. It should come on for 2 seconds then go out once it recognizes the correct PASS key code. VATS will disable the starter relay and cause the fuel injectors not to pulse. Usually it's the contacts in the ign cylinder. If the light goes out normal troubleshooting can be used. The starter enable relay is behind the driver side kick panel.

87PontiacBeast

i have the same problem.. my post is called " need help electronic problem" there might be something in there to help you.. if u find out what it is let me know... my car still wont start.

Trickster

f your key has the pellet in it and your security light stays on when the key is turned, you have a problem with VATS. Here is a simple test to try. Using a multimeter set to OHM's, measure the resistance value of the pellet in the key and write it down. Next, disconnect the two wire harness coming from the steering column. The two wires will be either white with an orange wrap or yellow with a black wrap. the two wires on the connector they connect to will be purple/yellow and black/white. Put the key in the ignition lock cylinder and leave in the "OFF" position. Now measure the resistance value in the key using the wire from the steering column. If the value is different, you either have a broken wire in the steering column or bad contacts on the key or lock cylinder. If the value is the same, your problem is elsewhere.

Shribe

iTrader: (1)

got advice from mechanic today and said to check for power at starter with test light, had power and since nothing happened that should mean the starter is bad, dropped $60 on a new one and put it in and guess what, nothing!!!!!!!!!!!

what else could it be!?!?!?!?!!?

Danno

You probably checked for power at the WRONG place. The battery cable has power all the time, the solenoid sends the 12 volts to turn the starter. The solenoid turn on voltage is at the heavy strap that goes into the starter. As Trickster said you need to do some troubleshooting unless you want to spend money with the shotgun approach.

Shribe

iTrader: (1)

When I checked for power it was at the big terminal on the starter with me underneath with the light and my wife turning the key. When she would turn the key to start the light would come on and go off when she released it. The vats doesn't seem to fit because the pump goes when the key is turned. How could power get to starter if there was a problem ahead of it such as iginition switch. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Trickster

Schribe,

The fuel pump will come on and prime regardless of the condition of the VATS system. The VATS system only disables the starter enable relay which sends power to the starter from the ignition switch if the right resistance code is seen by the computer. The VATS also disables the fuel injectors until the right resistance code is seen. Does the security light come on and stay on when you turn the key. If the VATS system is good, it will come on for two seconds when the key is turned and then go off. You could also check to make sure the gear shifter is fully in the park position when you turn the key.

Shribe

iTrader: (1)

Checked VATS and security light, everything checked out. What about the starter enable relay? What does it look like and how would I check it? I feel like I am running out options. I also tried making sure the car was in park and trying to start in neutral and wiggling the shifter. If I ever get it started again, will shimming be necessary for sure on the starter or do you start it and see what happens?

Trickster

Hello Shribe,
I just went back and looked at the original post and re-read it. It seems everyone who has read it (myself included), had VATS on the brain. Since you say that the VATS light comes on and goes out as advertised, we will rule that out. You have power to the starter from the battery cable. Check all your connections at the starter solenoid for corrosion and make sure they're tight. It sounds like you have a bad starter solenoid. To answer your question about the starter enable relay, it is located under the left kick panel below the hood release cable. It has four wires going into it, dark green one goes to Park/Neutral switch, Light green one goes to pin "A3" of the VATS control module, both yellow wires join in a splice and go to the ignition switch mounted on the steering column under the dash. Disconnect the starter enable relay and check for voltage at both yellow wires when you turn the key to run. If no voltage, check wires for condition and check red wire at ignition switch for voltage. Will be hot constantly, if no voltage there replace fusible links at starter solenoid. If you have voltage on the yellow wires to the starter enable relay, replace it. Again, sorry about the confusion.

Shribe

iTrader: (1)

I just tried new starter enable realy after checking yellow wires for power. Still, won't start! The starter solenoid, is that the on top of the actual starter motor? That came with the new starter if that is it. Where is the red wire at ignition switch and how do I get to it? Where are the fusible links at the starter solenoid? I am to the the end of my experience so any ideas will need to be spelled out in detail. Again, any ideas welcome!
Shribe

Trickster

Yes, the solenoid is on top of the starter. The igniton switch is mounted on the side of the steering column under the dash. The fusible links are the small wires with the big terminal lugs that go on the big post on the solenoid along with the positive cable from the battery. The purple wire or small wire with the small terminal lug goes on the small post marked 'S" on the solenoid. That wire goes to the park neutral switch on the shifter if you have an automatic, the clutch switch if you have a manual. I will try to send you a schematic shortly.

Shribe

iTrader: (1)

just went back and cleaned terminals to make sure they were good and hooked them back up, and decided to check voltage at starter with key turned, not just with test light. I don't know if I tested it wrong before but there is power there all the time, even when the key is out. Should there always be power to the solenoid on the starter? Secondly the red wire at the ignition switch, where is it? I know where the ignition switch is but where do i find red wire to test.

Trickster

This schematic should help with that. The red wire comes off pin "A4" at the firewall connector on the drivers side and has a second wire spliced into it. One goes to pin "C1"(B3) of the igniton switch and the other one goes to pin "C2" (B2)of the ignition switch. The yellow wire which goes to the starter enable wire comes of pin "C2" (S) of the ignition switch. The letters in parenthesis are the markings on the switch. Hope this helps some.

Trickster

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Trickster

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Trickster

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84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Do you have tilt steering by any chance.I know it sounds wierd,but try tilting the wheel to a different spot to see if that helps.I had a simular problem with my camaro on & off for months.Couldnt figure ot out.Till the PAWL it the tilt mechanism broke.

Shribe

iTrader: (1)

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!
Thanks for the diagrams and help Trickster. I checked the park indicator wires today and found out that it was disconnected. While I was screwing around with the BOSE crap the large interface pushed on the park harness. It must have been loose for a while because it happened once before and then was fine. That is why I thought it was starter finally going. I got a new starter (first time install) and starter enable relay (security relay is what dealership calls it) out of it, but it was still cheaper than a tow and I won't worry about starter anymore. Also did a tune up with plugs, wire, and cap, coolant bypass, and 180 degree thermostat ($5 on clearance at SLP). Car runs perfect now!
Thanks again!
Shribe:hail:

Trickster

Glad they helped out Shribe, I apologize for not sending them to you sooner. Had several things on my mind at the time and it took me a couple of days for what you were saying in your post to finally register. Glad to hear you're finally up and running again without any large repair bill .

black90rs

Yeah this post is old but i got a question as my car is doing the same thing... Will the digrams still work for a 91 camaro?

firebirdjosh

iTrader: (1)

Should have tried the good ole screwdriver across the terminals of the starter method. Never fails to tell you if its dead or not.

Trickster

The principle is the same, However I do have the same information for a 92 that I can post for you.

black90rs

hey trickster that would be great if you could...

black90rs

Actually i just need to know if the colors are the same.. my 91 s a v6 and i dont want to jump the wrong color wires and screw something up.. cause my starter relay seems to be yellow,cream,brown and green..

rol1

Trickster, would you post the diagram for the 92 Firebird, please?

This is what I'm trying to get going.

I have the v6 too.