r90camarors

Timeslips:

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Which ones were with the open element? I see no filter, then your ram air with no filters and then with them. Am I missing something?

r90camarors

A little inconclusive, but I think it probably shows that the ram air is really not worth it.

Though here is the break down:

First run (ram air w/ filters): engine temp 220 or so. Weather was obviously warmest of the three runs. Best trap speed

Second run (ram air/ no filter): engine temp 240 or so. Experianced a lot of noticable knock/timing retards. Horrible run, obviously need a fan switch.....

Run three (pure tbi! no aircleaner): engine temp 190 or so. Coolest weather of the night. Best ET

Unfortuantly, I was only able to get those three runs in. I was planning on running an open element with filter, but ran out of time- but past experiance had shown about a tenth and mph loss with paper aircleaner. K&N should yeild about the same if not better results in comparison to no aircleaner.

Anyways, I may be able to make it out again next tuesday with fan switch rigged up and get more consistency.

Not bad times considering my peg leg rear, stock stall and tranny, and stock engine and exhaust manifolds.

r90camarors

No. I just didn't have time, but no aircleaner at all is pretty comparable.

Also to note, I have a cowl hood. I'm not sure how much this effected results, but I doubt it is major. I am thinking sealing the cowl to the air cleaner will yield the best results in conjunction with a K&N extreme as you guys have stated before.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Well I am glad you posted this. You can pretty much assume your "no air filter" run will be on par with an open element because of its nature to draw in warm air. This just goes to show that even though TPI CAI with custom ducting is nice and all, but for $20 and 3 minutes you can have the same performance results with an open element.

ponykiller1992

iTrader: (1)

You really cant judge that fom his times, seeing how the temps were so far off from each run. I would have to see it with all runs being at 190 to believe it. YOu guys know these cars suck when hot.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

allthough I agree that you are wasting your time with anything but an open element, those test results are far scientific. The temp is one HUGe variable.

I cant believe you actually raced it at 240 degrees, if my engine creeps above 220 i freak out much less race!

You would have to have a pretty brutal ram air setup to do any good over the open element. I.E. the L69 aircleaner is not ram air and nor does it flow worth a damn.

Im talking something from ramairbox.com with straight shot ducting, at that point you are going to have to analyze the cost effectiveness and practicality of the situation, like, do you want to do without your high beams in a camaro? or do something silly in a firebird?

for that price youd be better off getting an aftermarket ram air or cowl induction hood, youd drop substantial weight off the front end and get the air you are dead set on having not to mention make the car look cooler

r90camarors

Good points pablo, but you have to remember I have a 383 and t-56 going in, and this lo3 is going to become a boat ancore! I'll run it one more time with the lo3, but with the 160* stat and a fan switch rigged up next week. I'll probably give Byron a try as well as opposed to 66. 3 runs runs for $36 is NOT cost efficient!

After I get more consistent engine temps, my guess is that the et's will be pretty close, but maybe gain a mph or so with the ram air. We'll have to see though

Grumpy

Unless you compensate for the Wide Open throttle Air Fuel Ratio, your results might be misleading.

Not to mention there are elements of design related to Ram Air. To label your results as applicable to *Ram Airs*, is also kind of misleading.

r90camarors

Just out of curiousity, why? Honestly, I'd venture as far as saying that the ram air setup on my car is more of a ram air setup then say, a '96+ ss camaro. Reason being that my ram air starts straight at the z-28 grill up through the ram air ducts and on back, taking a straight shot of forced air, where as the curvature of a ram air ss hood would lead me to believe that much of the air actually flows over the scoop, not to mention the baffles in the air cleaner itself. True, my setup is by no means perfect, and may not flow as well (thus the reason for testing) , but in theory it works. If labeling my results as ram air are misleading, then we need to get rid of the "ram air for tbi camaros" tech article on this page, as that is essentially what I have.

You are right about not being able to compensate for the WOT as I'm guessing the extra air possibly lead to a lean condition causing the knock problems that occurred on the second run (no air cleaners in the tpi housing).

I have installed the 160* stat, as well as wiring in the fan switch. So hopefully that makes for more consistent runs. As long as the weather is good, I may try to make it out to 66 again tuesday, but around 4:00 this time.

r90camarors

Well, now that I have this car running nice and cool, she is running lean and missing all over the place from 3,500rpm and up. Oh well, I guess I'll retard the timing a little. Anyways, here are two pics of the ram air ducts, since everybody seems to like to call it CAI.........

r90camarors

from the top

ponykiller1992

iTrader: (1)

What did you use to seal up them openings? I got 3" flex duct.

FWIW, I gained about .2-.3 switching to my CAI from my open element.

r90camarors

Not quite sure what you mean. I used clear rtv on the ducts themselves to seal off the small openings where air could slip through. The tpi air cleaner sits atop of what you see in the pictures.


I found my old hypercrap chip in hopes for a little more fuel at WOT. It helped a little, but it still knocks pretty hard in second past 4,300rpm.

The good news is that the engine is staying nice and cool now. My guess is that my ets will be pretty close, but my traps will be up 2-3mph with the ram air. We'll see though

ponykiller1992

iTrader: (1)

I mean, the holes from behind the fog light holes, to the TPI snorkal. did you use some kind of fabbed box to do it?

r90camarors

yeah, i have the ebay ones. I think i got them for around $30 or so. But they are pretty poor quality, but I guess they do the job. If you have the tools. It would be easy enough to fab your own.
You should beable to see mine in the pics, but I can brighten the pics up.

The person to really check out on the ram air design is swerve-driver. He made a beautiful system, especially the ram air boxes he fabbed up.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

An open element sticking through the hood, boxed to a cowl, etc would have worked well.

I don't really think a ram air test on a 16 second car is gonna tell anyone much.


Before i ripped my car apart, I had the k&n in the fender. MAT temps were avg 220f.

I moved it to under the cowl. Now this I assumed would have caused a negative effect, because true the top of the K&N would suck cold air from the cowl, but the bottom would suck it off the headers.

MAT's dropped to 170f. Moved it back and forth and got the same results each time.

When I get this thing back together, i'm gonna put a box around it so it ONLY sucks air in from the cowl.

-- Joe

r90camarors

well then you are wasting your breath because most of the people on this board are running 15s....... Also, my IAT readings are on average 40 degrees cooler with the ram air hooked up as opposed to running the open element with cowl ducts open..... Obviously a sealed cowl would bring in much cooler air, but if you are going to go simply by incoming air temps, then the ram air or sealed cowl is going to be the coolest, and of course placing a K&N near a header is gonna bring in warmer air

My tests are not to see what brings in the coolest air. They are to see if the ram air can out perform an open element down the quarter with cold air and velocity/cfm considered.

I am going back to Rt66 tuesday and will have more times but on more consistent engine temps. Then, if the ram air proves effective, then I'll try the test again after I get my 383 in. Hope 12s on street tires are good enough for ya to tell

ponykiller1992

iTrader: (1)

On my CAI setup, I actually lost time by using no filter at all.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

On the TBI board? Yeah, mostly 15s i'd think.

I'm not going just on MAT temps, although that has a lot to do with it. How "straight" your ram-air ducting is plays a big role. Factory ram air cars have ram air hoods, for a reason. Running a bunch of 90d bends down to the bottom doesn't make much sense.

I can't remember the formula posted once that was considered correct, but I think it was a few cfm or something loss per 90d bend.

Your 383 gonna be TBI?


-- Joe

r90camarors

It does if it out performs an open element, which is what I am trying to test. The only true ram air in my opinion is a scoop. Factory ram air on the newer ls1s have baffles which disrupts the ram air effect as well.
As long as the weather holds out, we will know tomorrow what the results are.

I am keeping tbi for the 383. I had it in my last 383 until it blew. Origional times were weak at 13.4 @ 106mph, but after swapping to an rpm airgap and a better tuned chip, I am sure it was a 12 sec car somewhere in the 115mph range. It was strong enough to shatter my clutch on the first attempt at the strip after the mods. Then after a spec stage 3 clutch, my tranny took a dump. Then of course the engine blew back in feb. Anyways this next combo should be more potent hopefully, tholugh time is running out to get her swapped in, up and running for a run. I guess we'll see.

85and87

id like to see results from a carbed ram air set up

Poncho Villa

Okay, it's late, and I'm a bit confused, but I thought that the "ram air" with filter 1/4 time was about as good as the no filter, no air cleaner time, with the slowest one being "ram air" no filter-the middle timeslip. Is that right?

My explanation is this: too much turbulence disrupts the intake charge, so a bit of baffling, whether it's a screen as in the WS6 style Ramair II hoods, or a filter, is necessary to slow down the air enough to get the benefit of cold air without the crazy turbulence of a wide open scoop blasting air over an open carb or tbi. So ram air with no filter is no good, too much turbulence.

My same concern with shaker scoops, and some cowl hoods on thirdgens--the windshields may be sloped too much for the cowl induction effect to occur, and instead air starvation could happen. Just some ideas. I like the Camaro CAI, which could also be called Ramair. Although I agree with whoever said a straight scoop provides more air pressure, whereas more bends in the duct would slow the air down.

P.S. all this may be a moot point, at least the ram air bit, as someone posted an article on this site, explaining in terms of physics why most ram air setups aren't ram air, but "cold air." Anyway, timeslips don't lie, so it would be interesting to see some more results. I'm a firm believer in air induction of all kinds, it's a beautiful thing.:hail:

icarus402001

OK, I'm a neophite. Poncho, what are the tubes running to each cylinder in that picture?

ironroad9c1

thats nitrous and fuel plumbed with a direct shot system,most folks just use a plate under the carb ,that is much better to make the most out of your shot

r90camarors

I agree that the ram air w/ no filters probably does cause some turbulence. I did experiance a lot of knock during that run (base timing was at 4* adv if I recall) which always led me to believe my a/f was going lean.
I probably won't be able to test the setup again for a while, but it will be on the 383 when I do. I am leaning towards the 900cfm tbi commander 950 set up with wbO2, so hopefully I can be sure that I have everything fine tuned and knock out factors that could have curved my last results on the 305/ 7846 near stock combo. Don't get me wrong, I would love something like a HSR, but the price is right and the 900cfm unit is now advertised to support up to 600hp!
I am thinking the restrictive tpi cai will not flow enough air period. I will probably end up using the cowl induction, but I guess we'll see.

Avenger007

ram air systems implement a hood to force more air making a more efficient induction, correct? So if you simply duct air from the grill then its mostly just a CAI with a different route, yes?

So it seems this is more of a CAI vs open element, or a CAI vs filter/no filter comparison. This is posing interesting questions but it seems the results would be too close to call it significant. I would like to see a true "ram air" setup, perhaps with the hood going to a large tubing to a "ram air box" type of system around a open element filter/housing vs a regular open element or CAI, maybe proving if these systems are really what theyre made out to be.

icarus402001

If anyone's going to install a cowl instead of a new hood, maybe they could do a few runs after they cut their hole and before they install the cowl. Maybe one run with the cowl opening to the front and another with the opening to the rear. How about a run with a velocity stack? Or a run with the shaker scoop facing forward? How about a 1 inch TB spacer and the various elementst hru the hood? Endless combinations toi answer all questions.

r90camarors

Avenger, it is ram air. Just not as efficient as other forms (like a scoop), namely because of the bends. But just look at an LS1 "ram air" trans am. You would think that it would be a straight shot, but the baffles in the system prove otherwise. But the end result is the same-

sunset92

i have the hood that looks like the ss hood and i have no baffles in mine. i used a dremel(wonderful tool) and cut all the crap out and the hood come in 2 layers so i cut a round hole in the bottom layer and this allowed the top part of the filter and the xtremelid to be directly in the path of incoming air.
i still need to seal off the bottom though and i need to get some aluminum and make a little box so all the air goes right in the filter! and its a pretty straight shot. i need to borrow my lil brothers digital camera and show yall how it looks.

safemode

iTrader: (1)

ram-air has very very little effect at anything below 70mph and even then, it really wont make a useful difference than an efficient cold air setup until you get in the mid hundreds. ram-air is seen on F1 racers, they drive the speeds that can actually see the ram air help them, our cars rarely see those speeds if ever, and so all it is is a glorified cold air setup. If you have a cold air setup with the shortest most direct route possible, it will provide the best performance, be it through a cowl hood or direct to the grill via "ram-air" or some holes directly in the middle of the hood. You wont see a real difference from either of them.

Everyone wants to see some sort of scientific test to bring to light the true "best of the N/A induction systems" but nobody is going to go through all the trouble to do that ...and even if someone did, someone would find something about the test to disqualify it in their eyes. It's purely prefence at street car performance.

sunset92

there was a test done in chp mag about 2-3 months ago that tested various tpi filter designs and locations i think they tested 10 diffrent types and the best on was that funky looking batwing style filter. i forgot what it was called but it looks weird...

safemode

iTrader: (1)

yea, but was was the test testing? hp/torque numbers or the filter's ability to actually do any filtering? A filter's job is first and foremost to actually filter the air. You can get great performance by using a wide metal screen to remove air turbulance and give max flow but it wont filter for jack.
I think the discussion is moot since it's been done to death before on all sorts of pontiac forums and other car forums, they always come to the same conclusion. Cold air is better than warm air induction, and all cars not traveling in the 100+mph range wont make a ram-air setup anything more than a cold air intake. Any hopes of seeing any real world differences between optimal cai designs are slim to none. And on top of that, few people would ever see the day that such a thing actually meant winning or losing a race, since so many other factors completely outweigh this. As long as you get yourself a cai that finds the shortest and least obstructive route to the outside you're good.

What this thread is supposed to do is show if cai vs wai really matters in an optimal setting for both. And from what it looks like, it doesn't since it's obvious that people feel that engine temperatures of just 30 degree differences can overwhelm the different intake designs performance. That alone should tell you that as long as your intake is optimal at flow (of course with filtration too) then the advantage against you that another intake may have is insignificant and would take a miracle for it to decide the outcome of any race.

sunset92

the filter i spoke of were all of the k and n type they were just shaped in diffrent ways also some of them had diffrent shaped tubing and the test did show airflow and hp/trq numbers but it was more a comparison of how the diffrent styles worked and one or 2 of them were ram air styles... now did they offer better power and flow because thwey were "ram air" probobly not becasue when you dyno test them there is no huge amount of air forced into the scoops... but a couple of those ram air designs flowed great... one of them was also an slp one and a granetelli.
i still want to know how gm got that the ram air firebird has 25 more hp than the non ram air...
did they have mr. goodwrench stand in front of the car while it was on and blow real hard...
i like my ss scoop set up becasue it forces colder air into the area were the filter is located thus sucking in colder air now i doubt very much air is being forced into it though.
also if you set up a hat design and have the filter in the fenderwell or something like that the tube is under the hood and gets heated up and they are sometimes hot to the touch after the engine has been running. my filter and tb unit don't get super hot becasue all that cool air keeps them cool... but i like the theory behind ram air and the "raim air" stickers are way cool...

Avenger007

Of course ram air only works at greater speeds, pontiac even states that in their brochures on the ram air systems. But if your saying its useless until 60/70mph then that wouldnt be entirely true. Highway cruising sees that kind of speed as well as a 1/4mile. Streetlight racing wouldnt see much difference at all however.

SS hoods do a great job of funneling the air straight to the TB with the shortest path, and Ram air hoods can implement a system thats pretty efficient as well since theres no turns or bends in the tubing.

Regardless, i still find it hard to believe a ram air bird makes 15-20hp over a regular one. These hp claims by the manufac dont make sense. You dont necessarily gain hp but rather keep the car cooler, properly executing the power you already had. Yes or no? either way i dont think this thread has really gone anywhere lol because theres too much speculation over the time slips. Obviously we appreciate your efforts r90camarors, because you got the cogs turning.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

When boating in a river, do you go faster padaling upstream, or downstream?

-- Joe

kdrolt

A. For anesthes: The paddling analogy, while simple, doesn't apply at all. Yes it's less work paddling downstream (if you choose to paddle at all) but that has nothing to do with ram air intake, or cold air intake, or both. You're an engineer so you already know this --- you just chose a poor analogy.

Vizard, in one or more of his books, shows the contributions of both ram + cold-air to the gains in induction, and you don't see the ram-effect (a pressure gain) doing anything useful at street legal speeds.

B. For Avenger007: remember that the marketing people at PMD called it "ram air", but that doesn't make it the genuine article. A little work at fluid mechanics will show you how little the "ram" effect is, in terms of pressure increase above the carb or throttle, until the vehicle speeds are extreme. The mfg claims have almost nothing to do with ramming air into the intake, but they probably DO have everything to do with a decrease in the air temp of the intake flow.

If PMD had tested the engine on a really hot day, would the cold-air-induction of the so-called "ram air" hood have made a 15-20 hp difference? Yes -- that could happen, especially if you wait for a really nasty day and you heat-soak the engine first.... then do a hood+induction swap to get the before/after results.

Were mfg's in the 1960s prone to such exercises to inflate the power output of the engines? Sure. Case closed.