rfoster23g

Hey guys I have been building a 5.3l ls camaro for about 6 months and I know I want to to go forced induction with this set up. The problem is that I don't know what kind of forced induction I want to go. I really want to keep my headers that I bought for my ls so turbos in the engine bay are pretty much out. I am thinking my options are pretty much something along the lines of a paxton 2200 or rear mount twin/ single turbos. I am kind of hell bent on keeping true dual exhausts with longtube headers hence the twins to maintain that true dual sound. They both have drawbacks and headaches that would need to be dealt with but I want my car to be reliable as a daily driver. I am thinking somewhere in the range of 550 or 600 whp for this build. So my question is which would be more reliable and budget oriented?
Also here are a few pics of the build so far.

about 5 months ago

rfoster23g

After

rfoster23g

What I want it to look like lol

saw this at Ls Fest 15 beautiful by the way anybody knows whose car this is?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Stay supercharger if you want dual exhaust and keep the longtube headers.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Thats the route I'm going!

rfoster23g

for some reason I am really leaning towards a twin set up out back just for sheer budget of ebay turbos

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

we have simular builds. I got a 5.3 from a 99 silverado wit 150K on it. I swapped out the valve springs for new LS6 ones and swapped a Fbody oil pan with windage tray etc. A crank pilot spacer for my 200r4 and some setback motor mounts and Im in.

I should be in less than 6K for sure prob like 4500-5K total in the whole setup.

I originally wanted to go twin turbo as I already have true dual 3" exhaust but the piping nightmare changed my mind after I had some cheap turbo headers to test fit. THen I thought about going single turbo to help lessin the underhood piping but would require a full custom exhaust which would be cheap as I would make it.... just alot more work!

I decided on doing a centrifugal supercharger on the pass side (im running truck accessories). Im going with a brand called torqstorm and they have bolt on kits starting at $2800 for made in the USA billet goodness. I just purchased my kit (They are building it) which is a GTO kit modded with spacers and hub for the truck accessoires = $2900 out the door and I should have it in a week and a half. This allows me to keep my dual exhaust and I just need to fab some short complex connection pipes to retain my current header back exhaust. I went with cheap LS long tubes for $330 shipped off ebay... and they are what they are. Although cheap they aren't the cleanest welds and bends/cuts on the inside of the collectors but from the outside they are nice enough looking and they FIT! I had to grind down the bell housing on my 2004r on the driver side.

I just swapped on a cheap procomp high flow LS1 waterpump with truck waterpump spacers that way it all lines up and did a idler relocation pulley kit and small PS pulley. That way I could run the LS1 supercharger kit and the truck accessories.

I'm planning on using HP Tuners PRO to tune it and I already have depinned the harness. Going to run a 2bar SD setup and water/meth injection. All I have left is moddifying my trans crossmember/kickdown cable figuring out ugh, connections for exhaust, meth/wiring, and ECM stuff. Already got the radiator and stuff on the way. Need to get the supercharger and pin the crank for he supercharger hub.

I'm plannng for 10-12psi on the stock motor and 550-600hp, down the road prob a cam change and some head porting should drop some boost pressure but increase power considerably. But I want to get this setup running and tuned for a while before I stray too far from the OEM setup bc of tuning.

What are your plans for tuning? You will need to delete the MAF completely and go SD... so your looking at a custom operating system either way or having someone tune it. but they are still going to need to delete your operating system and run a 2-3bar SD system. There is alot less fab work for a supercharger and because they are usually self contained you don't need to worry about oil pressure and drainback lines. I already tapped my oil pan just in case. Also since there is no turbo exhaust under the hood the temps stay down and help with higher IATs but superchargers still create a good bit of IAT temps... which is why an intercooler or water/meth is required for higher boost levels. Nice thing about superchargers also is that they build boost almost off idle... I should see 1-2psi at 1500-1800 rpms and full boost 500-800rpms after that.

I like the simplicity of the supercharger setup over the turbo and that I got a USA made setup with warranty vs a cheap chinese turbo which might or might not explode and take out the motor. Only issue with the Supercharger is that (mine at least) will consume 47hp at full boost to operate.

rfoster23g

That looks pretty good any idea what brand superchargers they are selling? As far as tuning I am going to take it down to atlanta for a dyno tune.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

They make there own. All custom built and made in house, Rick over there is very easy and friendly to talk to. http://www.torqstorm.com/

Here are the GM LS kits
http://www.torqstorm.com/kits_single_gm.html

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

In the end its not necessarily going to be as cheap as you think.

rear mounts need two things. Some heat retention in the exhaust and relatively smaller than typical pipe size imo.
Long tubes go against this so you will have some slower than idea spool characteristics. But can still make it work

Problem is pipe routing. Could do 2.25" wrapped pipe to each t3 sized gt30 type turbo. T3/t4 super 60 stuff, all between 55-57mm comp and similar turbine.

Mount one on each rear frame rail easily but the pipe routing gets messy. You have two outlets you need to join into 1 and bring all the way to front of the car. Two exhaust feeds. Thats a good bit of stuff. But since its 2.25" it atleast fits somewhat decent. May even get away with 2" but i would run 2.5-2.25 for a few feet after collector and transistion into 2" in that case

I bet your current exhaust system is 2.5-3" which is way to big. Plus turbos wont exactly sound like a typical dual exhaust car. Turbo changes the sound

rfoster23g

Ok thanks I will definitely check them out

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

I agree with Orr on the rear turbos. On top of all that you need to figure out oiling and drainback from the turbos to the engine. Now your looking at fluid pumps to pump and drain the oil back to the engine. Running the pressure tubing back to the engine is not very fun on these cars. I would love to do a rear mounted turbo on my 2014 Ram Hemi as it would be very easy and its setup for a nice single turbo with alot of area under it.

rfoster23g

Ok so what do you guys think about a single rear mount turbo fed by an external oil reservoir?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Oiling isnt a big deal. -4 feed to turbo and drain into a turbowerx pump. Feed back likely can be -6 to -8. I used 5/8 or -10 size but its overkill. Theres not much volume there

rfoster23g

Thanks for the input! Since no matter what the turbo would change the sound I am thinking maybe just going with a single turbo. What size hotside piping and coldside would you suggest running. Also I am not sure how big of a turbo to run so it would spool fast and make close to 600 hp. In my state I am required to run catalytic converters so how would that affect the turbo? Also would I need to run a muffler or would it not matter?

HP52TA

iTrader: (4)

Had a remote oiled turbo on my truck ... For six months. Went through three scavenge pumps, finally spend $400 on an Exa pump for some piece of mind. Even then, I hated the sound of the pump every time I turned the key on. If the pump dies, you feed engine oil into your intake, quite a mess...

Easiest install in my opinion is supercharger.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Also dont rule out a factory lsa blower setup. They can be had relatively cheap and make 600 hp

I would 2.5" to turbo. Heat wrapped. Turbonetics 7268 or 7668 .96 ar hurricane series should get the number. Ptrim stuff likely wont do over 500-550 imo. The turbonetics 68 mm wheel is capable of good bit of power.
Maybe china on3 or vsracing 7875 but idk what ar they have on turbine. Cant go to big cuz it wont spool fast.

rfoster23g

I would be running a separate oil reservoir in the spare tire space. Ok and thanks for the suggestions on turbos Orr89RocZ so do you think the cats would help with keeping the exhaust gasses hot. Also I have a 4.10 gear with a t56 would this be alright for a turbo?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Cat does help but you gotta be careful the richer fuel mix and backpressure doesnt cause cat failure and have pieces blow off into the turbine

rfoster23g

Ok thanks for the input on the rear mount but lets switch modes, How do you guys feel about a vortech/paxton, or procharger hanging off the driver side. I would be using the truck serpentine system with a 6 rib pulley ran with the rest of the accessories all on one belt. How much boost could I attain with this kit?

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Depends on the SC (super charger). But I don't think you understand the truck accessories… the alt and PS are on the driver side and the bracket doesn't flip to the pass side. So you really can't run the SC on the driver side without relocating everything to the pass side. It would be easier to run a pass side SC setup. This is exactly what Im in the process of so I can literally say I've already had to figure it all out.

Boost is a reflection of resistance of the air entering the engine and how fast it can consume it. If you force more air in than the engine can consume they it creates positive pressure or boost. High boost numbers are not fully a "good thing" high boost means your cramming a lot of air and its not being used quick enough. To create boost you need to create heat, higher boost means higher IATs. The more efficient you make the motor the less boost it would produce. So say a stock 5.3LS and a SC produce 10psi boost, then you decided to change the cam, higher flowing heads and intake. Now that same motor and SC only produces 6psi… don't think for 1 sec thats a bad thing. ITs a great thing as you've increased the power output of the motor thus consuming more air = less boost, less boost = lower IATs.

Boost is different from one engine to the next… so theres no definitive answer for you. You can get a ball park by who designed the kit and have experience with what it will usually make but even then its just an estimate.

My setup is rated at 6-8psi (closer to 8psi with the largest pulley) on a stock 5.3 LS. Change the pulley (3 sizes total) out .100" and increase boost by 1-2psi. Im going with the smallest pulley right off the batt so I'm looking at 10-12psi max. But spinning it quicker is going to create higher IATs. A stock 5.3LS with 8psi should make about 523hp at the crank, same boost with e LS6 cam should bump it to 550-575hp. Don't swap out the truck intake for an LS1 (truck intake makes considerably more power than a LS1 intake). The LS6 intake really isn't even a performance upgrade compared to the truck intake. The trailblazer SS intake is pretty bad *** and then you get into the territory of FAST and holley intakes but its unnecessary.

I will be running the OEM truck accessories. For my LS1 kit I swapped the truck water pump for a LS1 high flow, relocated the idler pulley to change the belt routing for the water pump, swapped the small alternator for a larger higher amp version, swapped a smaller 5.3" PS pulley to clear the steering box and thats all she wrote. To swap the LS1 water pump you need 3/4" water pump spacers to space it out correctly so everything aligns. Everything is super cheap and easy to install. I paid $50 for a brand new pro comp mechanical water pump that I won off ebay, water pump spacers are $36, Idler pulley relocation is $18. I paid $80 for a new 130 amp alternator and $50 for a new gear reduction starter. So a new longer belt due to the relocation, PS pulley and larger alt and I get to use the OEM 6 rib serpentine setup. THe new SC will use a 8rib belt.

rfoster23g

Well I was thinking of a setup like the procharger setup that Hawks sells for the TPI setup that is mounted on the drivers side. Also if you look at the alternator on my setup it is not the truck alternator but the stock tpi alternator that I am using. I basically have cut off the top part of the alternator/power steering bracket where the head begins and block ends. So I am thinking I could maybe either leave the alternator in the stock location (like on the Hawks style) or move the alternator to the other side with a a small bracket and have lots of room for the supercharger to hang of the drivers side. I would put it on the passenger side but I am running ac and heat and it is pretty crowded with the way the ac and the heater core lines run. Also I am forced to run the ls1 intake because i have the stock hood and there is no way it would clear.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Well you can always do anything with money. Relocating the Alt to the driverside is possible but Idk if you'll have the clearance for the PS even with the alt depending on the SC and its brackets.

Gotcha on the hood clearance I would swap that LS1 intake out for something alittle better tho honestly… LS6, Speedmaster cast intake even or just go straight to FAST or holley. But boost can sure a bad flowing intake/head combo lol.

rfoster23g

So Im bringing this thread back from the dead!!!!
Thanks for all the feedback so far guys I think I want to go supercharged for this build. So I have been looking for different options that could work in our cars and so far I could not find any options that are affordable for me now or that would work without modification. So I decided to design my own bracket this is what I have so far. Let me know what you guys think.

rfoster23g

posted the pics in png so you don't have to download the pdf

rfoster23g

So I measured and if I run the intercooler piping over the intake I should be able to fit at least a 2.5 inch pipe under the strut tower brace.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Why not just purchase the torque storm supercharger? Complete bolt on kit with every clamp/hose etc needed for install. puts it just in the same place you designed your own bracket and will run you $3k for a brand new kit ready to bolt on. I just got mine like a month ago and its a really nice setup. I just mocked mine up and snapped a few pics for clearance. You couldn't make a complete kit for $3K.

Comes with prefabbed cold side with BOV installed and ports for IAT and Meth and runs all the piping up front and low infront of the accessories and radiator.

Heres a few quick pics of the mockup.

rfoster23g

I would but I kind of like the idea of piecing the kit together like I did with the ls I came out a lot better in the long run by doing that. What kit do you have I was looking at the gto setup and they wanted 3500 for it also are you running an intercooler with your setup. i can run a vortech v3 unit and a big red bov for around 2900 brand new with everything else. If I can get everything used or on sale i might be able to get away even better. Though I am open to seeing what torqstorm is able to do.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Obviously doing the work yourself is always more rewarding and usually saves some money. But your time is worth something for the most part... some more than others. So usually its a trade off.

You have to be careful putting things together yourself... first off all the spacing has to be dead on. Belts need to be basically perfect otherwise you will destroy them or throw/slip them. Then you have to match the parts as well as justify replacement parts if need be and how available they are. Dont get me wrong I usually build everything myself but The cost of the kit and the lifetime warranty made it a no brainer.

I paid $2900 shipped for the kit, its a hybrid of the Base LS carb kit ($2800), using the GTO charge tube and the truck spacers. I wanted the Unit as low as possible to clear the hood by the strut towers... even though I run a 4" cowl hood. My only hicup with the whole kit was the spacing of the tensioner on the waterpump and the SC bracket. Had to have alittle more than 1/4" milled off to fit. This was due to the missmatch of parts on my end. I opted to remove the truck waterpump and run the LS1 waterpump so the accessory belt would clear the straight out waterneck. I had to use the 3/4" billet waterpump spacers that allows the LS1 waterpump to bolt to the truck motor so the waterpump lines up with the rest of the accessories and crank. Other than that the kit was spot on and the quality is amazing. The brackets are thicker than most kits like vortech etc I believe and uses a 8rib belt vs some that start off with a 6rib and you have to pay more to upgrade/pay more for a 8rib belt.

No intercooler on mine... being a firebird/TA we don't have a good location for a IC anyways but I could easily if I had the room and really needed too. I will be running Water/meth as I already have a standard Snow kit that I never used (was for NOS). I know that torque storm/Accel tool was hired to build a new supercharger for a big name brand Supercharger brand (paxton or powerdyne etc) and the company pulled out so they just ran with what they had already created. So its not like they didn't improve on an already solid platform so they aren't junk. He includes every bolt and washer including the drill bit/bushing tool to drill the crank/balancer and a new reusable balancer bolt.

Not trying to promote them but I have yet to find a more complete kit, full billet, 1/2" min brackets with everything and a lifetime warranty for less than $3k. I'm happy with the quality thus far and I like that he uses OEM Gates tensioners and belts that can be picked up at any autoparts store. The Units are self contained and the lube is good for 10k and costs like $6 lol. Just trying to give you options.

rfoster23g

I definitely want my belt spacing to be dead on that is why I chose to model it in solidworks and the reason im going with waterjet cutting. Also Its not too bad to build brackets i had to hand fabricate the bracket for the alternator by eye and shim it just a little. I am also using 1/2 billet aluminum so the bracket is sturdy with a manual belt tensioner. I was reading a forum post about a guy who had the kit installed on a ls1 and he thought the limits of the kit was around 550 hp to the wheels though he seemed happy with it. One thing that scared me was he pulled the main bearings out of the car after 3000 miles and they looked pretty hammered. The materials for the bracket cost $200 and getting it cut is going to cost me $90. I am going to buy one of the ebay kits for $200 bucks and intercooler for $100. I am still looking for a cheaper alternative to the big red bov if I can. Torqstorm looks like a great supercharger but I already modeled a bracket that I believe will work great but I can get a used vortech v2 all day for like a 1200 is proven to make near 900 on a 6 rib with enough belt wrap.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Nonproblem, just trying to give you options. If u can do it then good luck and hope it works out.

I've heard a lot of issues with 6rib systems and belt slippage, I would get a min of 8 ribs if possible. Even at lower power levels of 500rwhp. I know the upgrade from 6 to 12 is not cheap so you might as well do it upfront and save the money in the long run.

I know how. Annoying it is to get everything to line up, I bult most of my own accessory brackets and it was a fun project, then I had to clearance/figure out the spacing on my tensioner for the SC I'm running now. I enjoy doing it just like you so I say go for it if you can. I wish I had programs like solid works and a cheap way to cut things. S&W offers water jet cutting but the setup costs etc is not worth it for a low amount of peices cut.

I believe the torque storm can do a good bit more than that. I know it makes 500+Rwhp with a stock cammed 5.3 and about 10psi. I think the limits are about 800hp at the crank. Which is more than I would ever want to make. I'd rather build boost quickly and have more fun on the street. I should see boost by 1,800rpms which should be fun

rfoster23g

So so far things I have so far for my supercharger kit

$520 Used Paxton Novi 1200
$150 rebuild kit for Supercharger
$160 for bracket
$40 Tial 50 bov

Things I need

$70 Intercooler
$110 Intercooler piping
$199 Injectors
$150 corvette waterpump with truck adapters
$50 Secondary fuel pump
$100 for extras

So far that is $1549 total for the supercharger kit

rfoster23g

Also I am running a 6 rib setup but I have over 280 degrees of belt wrap so I am hoping for no belt slip.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

$40 for a Tial BOV? I'm assuming that's a knock off Chinese off eBay? Be careful as the quality isn't the same lol. Guy called. Wyntom on eBay sells a cheap BOV and WG for cheap like $50 but the quality is good and he's got a good rep for decent products. I run one of his WG and it worked great.

Be careful with the $199 eBay injectors. They are not real... Esp if your looking at the green giants Bosch style. The $199 versions are knock offs. A lot of people have issues with flow differences, fuel flow pattern and then of course them shutting off at higher pressures. Look for you tube videos of people showing flow differences and quality differences. I got some real 72lb boschs flow matched from fuel injector connection for like $399 with harness adapters.

rfoster23g

Thanks for the warning on those injectors I didn't know they were fake I'm def going to buy the real ones. Though the fake tial 50 is actually a really nice piece if the diaphragm ever blows out tail actually sells a replacement. Though I doubt I will have to go that far.

rfoster23g

Also I looked for that wyntomn guy and couldn't find his profile

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Here... Says it in the pic. And these are the style, the wastegates are very robust and great quality. I would get his BOV or other items if I ever need them. He might have his own store but this was a quick search.

Here is one of his BOVs.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/50MM-BOV-Blow-off-Valve-Turbo-3-OD-Stainless-Steel-Pipe-Silver-/322034480040?nav=SEARCH

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I had the wyntomn stuff on my 305. Worked decent fromwhat i could tell.

rfoster23g

Thanks for the input guys I am going to stick with the fake tial but I will definitely try him out for my next build hopefully a turbo bbc or 6.0ls. I am going to be buying some stuff that I needed for my oil lines going to the sc. Anyway I have been working on doing a coil pack delete and got around to test fitting the sc. So far I have found that my intercooler piping is going straight into my ac compressor so it is going to be pretty tight trying to plumb it around it. Also I am still waiting on my school to cut my brackets out even though I brought it to them over a month ago lol. Though still trying to collect rest of the parts so I am in no rush. Also I want to throw a cam in it once I start the sc install do you guys have any recommendations for good centrifugal sc boost cams.

rfoster23g

here are some pics to show what it should look like

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Your going to have to push it out farther toward the tower to clear the valve cover. Mine sits out pretty far and almost rubs on the tower where it meets the engine bay front subframes.

otherwise looks good.

rfoster23g

I went ahead and redesigned the supercharger bracket once again pushed it up and over almost 2 inches. I also wasn't happy with the amount of idlers I was using for a small gain in belt wrap so I eliminated 4 of the original 7 idlers though I have left the provisions for 2 more in case I encounter any slip.

rfoster23g

Also Blackbird could you get me some pictures of your belt setup for comparison. Thanks

rfoster23g

been awhile but here is an update car is running with the supercharger and cam installed will update further later in the week

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Sorry man I never got your notification for belt pics.

Sounds good! Get ready for that BOV to get uber annoying driving around lol.

rfoster23g

no prob man I was thinking the same thing about the bov I see alot of people placing them right after the supercharger or before the throttle body. I tried to place it as far from me as possible. In the driver seat I cant hear at all but I guess I will see how bad it is daily driving it. Also your build is looking great so far how do you like the power vs the big block?

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

on a supercharged car (centri) you want the BOV as close to the supercharger, preferbly between the supercharger and the IC. that way you vent boosted (heated) air before it enters the IC just to be expelled to atmosphere. THis helps with lowering the IAT temps and heat soak of the IC. I have one close to yours (actually right under the pass battery tray (44mm) and I run another one right before the TB. Technically you only need one, and its location isn't as important as long as you put one in. However if you have the ability and room to place it where you want them yours is the best spot. I only run two to help with noise and you also gotta remember all that intake tubing/IC holds alot of compressed air so venting it quicker is always better.

What Ive noticed with the 44mm mounted below the Pass battery tray (technically the pass wheel well) is that you hear the air noise as it echo's off the ground and well area. Its def quieter than the single 38mm I was running on its own under the hood. I'm going to be looking into different options to help. I also have a VS racing knock off TIAL 50mm BOV like you have that wasn't machined right (o-ring doesnt seal completely and has a small gap) and I might try to run that and see what it does for noise as its a 50mm and a copy of the TIAL Q.

The supercharger has been working out great, love it, minus the BOV noise lol. below stall its alittle like a dog being the stock 5.3 but boost comes in quick and hard. I'm already planning ported stock heads/cam for the 5.3 to add another 100-150hp or might go 6.0 for alittle more low end. Boosted 5.3s are nothing to mess with, I can break the tires loose on command.