TheBondoBandit

hey guys , my little bro is having some big problems , he's got an 86 firebird v6 and all of a sudden today it shut off , we haven't had it started since . found out it wasn't getting any spark . so far we've replaced the cap , rotor , ignition module , coil , checked all the wiring , spent hours in 100 degree heat leaning over his black firebird and we still can't get spark . went to the parts store with the computer to see if they had a replacement , but they'd have to order it . they also told me theres an "esc module" , but their computer called it the spark control switch . i've read all over this site and still can't find where it is , i looked by the brake booster and it's just not there . i don't know if the 2.8's even had this esc module . either way we still can't get it to spark and we're pretty much out of money , he just paid off all his college expenses and leaves for school in 16 days . what else can i check ?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Did you check the pick up coil in the distributer?

TheBondoBandit

yeah , everything seems fine , all i can think of at this point is that the computer is dead . i dunno if it matters on these cars but the fuel pump is turning on .

Toehead

Even if the computer is completely toast, the car should still spark when the spark advance signal wire is disconnected.

It is on the passenger side. It is a brown wire with a quick disconnect fitting that sticks out of the wire loom.

Disconnect that and try.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Did you guys check for 12 volts at the fat pink wire on the coil? That one comes on when the key is on and powers the ignition circuit.

TheBondoBandit

my friend is more of the electrical expert , he's been doing most of the checking , everything i own is from the 60's and 70's ...or it's a motorcycle so i'm not used to all these sensors and relays and whatever . but i'll go check that pink wire . i dunno if it helps any but my little bro says that in the past week his firebird started bogging alittle when he'd first start moving and then yesterday it just died in traffic . just so i know are these firebirds new enough that the computer kills spark if theres a fuel pressure problem ?

and does this brown spark advance signal wire go to the dist or the coil or what ?

TheBondoBandit

the pink wire is getting 12v , i can't find the brown one

TheBondoBandit

anyone know what else i can check ?

Toehead

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/412150-timing.html

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Check all your fuses, some are labeled for one thing, but controls other items as well.

ESC is mounted to the same bracket as the fuel pump relay and fan relay on my 91 camaro.

You should beable to get a ECM from a junkyard(watch your prom chips). As well I have a spare ecm to a I think 85 or 86 firebird automatic I have been trying to get rid of. Lemme know your part numbers if you want it.

To review posted so far:
power at pink
replaced cap/rotor
replaced ICM
replaced coil
checked pickup coil?
getting fuel (no oil pressure kills fuel pump, does not affect spark).


how old are your plug wires?
The ground wire(s) to the block, mainly the battery one? loose, crodded? (been there, done that)

kurfbird

iTrader: (24)

Check with a multmeter for resistance of the pick up coil on the distributor. If it nothing that you problem. Its the two wires the hook up to the igniton module on the distributor.

I replaced my ingiton module one time and I was a little rough with the pick up coil wire then no spark. Was the pick up coil.

TheBondoBandit

we've been checking for spark straight from the coil , should we be checking after the dist ?

where are the fuel pump and fan relay located ? there is a bracket by the brake booster but i only see 2 relays , but neither look like the esc (going from the pic on the advanced auto parts web site)

i checked all the fuses and they're good . i also found that spark advance wire and unplugged it , still no spark .

would the esc going out stop the car from sparking ?

ground wire to the engine looks fine , nice and clean , not dangling .

Dale

iTrader: (12)

You can check at the coil I guess, but I always check at the plugs.

correct location on esc for my car. Maybe its different place for an 86 bird. Someone else have to answer that.

spark advance wire should make no difference on getting spark. But good that you found it. Thats needed for setting timing.

ground wires. They have solid connection? grab and shake the hell outta it, no wiggle at mount points?

I worked on a boat once, where the tach was fryed and not allow it to start. IIRC there is a quick connect plug on the white wire from the coil. That should go to the tach, dx it and try that??

after all that, I'm lost

TheBondoBandit

but would a bad esc keep it from sparking ?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Dunno on that as Ive not had to deal with it. The haynes book says it just deals with knocking in the motor and retarding the timing according. So IMO, no.

The ECM I have is a 1227302 if you need it.

TheBondoBandit

then maybe it is the computer . we opened this one up and nothing looked burned up , but it is 20 years old so maybe it just went on it's own . where would i find the numbers you're talking about , and how much do you want for it ?

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

It should be on a sticker on the outside of the case. It should say "SERV. NO." than the number you need

ScottieB

put the key into the on position. does the check engine light come on? if so, stick a paper clip in the set of ports under the drivers dash that goes to the computer. top 2 pins (2 rows - top row, first 2 nearest passenger side ... or farthest 2 from drivers door). make sure you get a good connection. these 2 ports are beside each other, not 1 in each row... top row, 2 nearest the passenger side. a code "12" (1 2, 1 2, 1 2) should blink 3 times... then any other codes. if you just get 12 all of the time, then the computer should be ok... if you get nothing, i'd assume its the computer or wires to the computer... or another fuse.

Toehead

If you have the ignition module hooked up correctly... it will spark even with NO ECM when the spark advance wire is unhooked.

TheBondoBandit

i unplugged the spark advance wire and it still didn't spark , so i'm assuming that means the computer is ok . now i'm really running out of ideas . i'll try seeing what codes if any come up tomorrow . are there any other fuses besides the pannel under the dash ? maybe a relay for ignition or something ?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Hes pulled the ecm since the car ran. There will be no codes.

TheBondoBandit

damn , then i'm completely out of ideas

w_mortell

hey, sometimes the itty bitty black ground wire coming off the negetive of the battery cable goes bad, try replacing that little wire. I have had the same problem before and it was that little black wire....just try some speaker wire even if you dont have anything else....sometimes the simplest things go wrong... and are the hardest to figure out...but yeah, it is just a little about 1 foot piece of wire coming off the battery to the metal above or around the headlight somewhere, replace it and see if it works, let me know how it works out.

kurfbird

iTrader: (24)

replace the pick up coil. Its only like 16.00 and see if that helps. That what was wrong with mine today. Check all the ground wires are tight and no corrosion Also check the wire from the coil to the distributor. Might be bad inside or cracked and have soem corrosion

TheBondoBandit

i've been testing spark using a new spark plug wire directly off the coil with a brand new plug in it . even tried the holding the spark plug to see if i got bit , nothin . i removed all the ground wires i could find and took some sand paper to the ends and put em back . still nothing . anyone want in the northern va area feel like swinging by and seeing if i missed anything ? my little bro only has $200 left and i don't think a mechanic will be able to figure it out for less than that . the really crappy part is if this was an old points ignition i'd already have him on the road .

kurfbird

iTrader: (24)

I would replace the pick up coil less than 20.00 Mine was doing the same thing after engine swap. I replaced the pick up coil and bang I have spark and the car runs.

TheBondoBandit

we tested our pickup coil with a multimeter and tried starting the car , we got pulses but my multimeter sucks and isn't accurate . i assumed that meant the pickup coil was good , should i still replace it ?

kurfbird

iTrader: (24)

Its less than twenty dollars. I would. You have checked or replaced everything else. The only other thing is the pick up coil.

kmr01007

My 91 rs was doing this a little while ago. It was dying when i would start it and sometimes it would die out when i was driving.

It was the distributor and the fuel injectors kinda of a pricey fix but whatever.

TheBondoBandit

if the pick up coil pulses the multimeter when you try to start the car it's working right ?

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

It's probably better to see what the voltage signal is. A weak signal can make the module "confused."

odla

my 89 2.8 did this twice in 5 years. i had to replace the distributor.