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Hi BadSS,
Any more news on your FIRST combo(s)? I'm intently following this as I will shortly be buying a new intake. Since I don't trust my skills at porting, I'm going between the HSR (cheap, high RPM/horsepower), SR (expensive, good all around power), and the FIRST (looks stock, cheaper, middle of the road power/RPM). I was hoping to see some real world dyno graphs rather than magazine stuff but doesn't appear to have happened. I was also wondering how much was gained from the stock FIRST vs. the ported version.
My combo is shaping up to be a 350 w/ a 218-220* intake roller cam, mid .500" lift, probably Edelbrock Etec heads etc. etc. It will have to pass CT emissions so I can't go too crazy. Since I would probably only go to the track once a year, I'm more concerned with weekend driving and street blasts. I'm worried that to have a good driving street car w/ the HSR I'll need a 3000 stall converter and 3.73's minimum. I'm hoping that the FIRST can be cheaper than the SR and provide about the same power(band).
Hi BadSS,
Any more news on your FIRST combo(s)? I'm intently following this as I will shortly be buying a new intake. Since I don't trust my skills at porting, I'm going between the HSR (cheap, high RPM/horsepower), SR (expensive, good all around power), and the FIRST (looks stock, cheaper, middle of the road power/RPM). I was hoping to see some real world dyno graphs rather than magazine stuff but doesn't appear to have happened. I was also wondering how much was gained from the stock FIRST vs. the ported version.
My combo is shaping up to be a 350 w/ a 218-220* intake roller cam, mid .500" lift, probably Edelbrock Etec heads etc. etc. It will have to pass CT emissions so I can't go too crazy. Since I would probably only go to the track once a year, I'm more concerned with weekend driving and street blasts. I'm worried that to have a good driving street car w/ the HSR I'll need a 3000 stall converter and 3.73's minimum. I'm hoping that the FIRST can be cheaper than the SR and provide about the same power(band).
PS. Your SS is awesome!!!
Man im glad you pulled this out of the dead pile. had some great info in there.
Guess it depends on where the line is drawn for "alternative" intakes...
Its too bad there isn't a way to have a "shadow" post on the other board that updates each other when there are posts, i.e. a thread in each category with the same posts in each one.
I'm close to posting pictures and starting a thread on it. I'm about 95% done with the machine work. Next up is the welding shop then lots of grinding, back to the welding shop, then more grinding and then back to machine shop for the final 5%.
The conversion is not for the faint of heart and you better have a big wallet or know someone with a machine shop as that is the case with me. However the potential for a substantial horsepower gain is there if you have the motor for it. We shall see when we go to the dyno.
Hi BadSS,
Any more news on your FIRST combo(s)? I'm intently following this as I will shortly be buying a new intake. Since I don't trust my skills at porting, I'm going between the HSR (cheap, high RPM/horsepower), SR (expensive, good all around power), and the FIRST (looks stock, cheaper, middle of the road power/RPM). I was hoping to see some real world dyno graphs rather than magazine stuff but doesn't appear to have happened. I was also wondering how much was gained from the stock FIRST vs. the ported version.
My combo is shaping up to be a 350 w/ a 218-220* intake roller cam, mid .500" lift, probably Edelbrock Etec heads etc. etc. It will have to pass CT emissions so I can't go too crazy. Since I would probably only go to the track once a year, I'm more concerned with weekend driving and street blasts. I'm worried that to have a good driving street car w/ the HSR I'll need a 3000 stall converter and 3.73's minimum. I'm hoping that the FIRST can be cheaper than the SR and provide about the same power(band).
PS. Your SS is awesome!!!
Jeffery, thanks for the compliment on the SS. I bought it new in 85 and it has served me well over the years. It's been down for some time now, but since I've sold the IROC, I've started back on getting it road and show worthy.
Sounds like your combination is similar to my old IROC. As far as intakes go,,, it's all about what you want from the car. I liked the FIRST on the IROC,, because of the midrange boost from the longer runners. It pulled almost as hard as the fully ported base and "customized" SLP runners - I took them on and off the car grinding a little,, then doing three or four vericom (g-tech) passes until the ETs and MPH leveled off. It was as "tuned" as it could be for that combination and the FIRST right out of the box performed better over all.
I liked the StealthRam,, but missed the midrange rush of the old TPI - although I did like how the car could hook decently on street tires,, something impossible to do with the old TPI/SLP combo,,, and how well it ran from a kick. The FIRST is middle of the road,, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It moved the power band up a few hundred RPM compared to the fully ported TPI/SLP combo,,, but not as high as the StealthRam.
Power band wise:
TPI/SLP - off idle to 5500 rpm - high-12.9s@105mph
FIRST - 2000 - 5800 - mid-12.5s@107mph
HSR - 3000 - 6400 - low-12.6s@108
ETs are for similar conditions with temps in the high 80s
A buddy with a 13.0 LS car would pull ever so slightly away from me with the old TPI/SLP combo from a 60mph kick. I could blow his doors off with either the HSR or the FIRST - with the HSR being a steady even pull while the FIRST would really put it on him on the initial hit and kinda tapered off a bit. That same 13.0 car could hand over the TPI/SLP combo on street tires,, bad,, I could not hook the thing. Again,, with the StealthRam and the FIRST I could flat blow his doors off,,, but the FIRST was harder to hook. Like I said,, it all depends on what you're looking for. I never ran a ported FIRST on the IROC, but would have expected about a .12 reduction in ETs over the box stock FIRST with relatively minor port work / clean-up. Not that it's bad out of the box,,, it's just sized to a stock exit,, and it turns down into it. The injector bumps are also quite large and can be dang near flattened out.
Anyway,, no hard data and won't be until I get the Monte back on the road.
Interesting info. I forgot all about these intakes. Those runners are HUGE!
How is the casting and machining quality of the pieces?
I'd say they're very good. If you enlarge the first picture, you can see the radiused inlets of the plenum,,, nothing to port there,, except for maybe a minor gasket match. The second picture shows the roof of the out of the box port. Quite smooth for as-cast.
BadSS, thanks for the input. I had an 87SS but sold it back in May '04.
I think the FIRST is going to be more up my alley. As you say with your RPM range's, that will be where I'm at 95% of the time. I wish the runner's were just a few inches shorter, so maybe peak rpm could be more like 6000-6100. But, I would not want this to be a high-rpm only car, so starting power at 3k just won't work out with my cam selection. I wish I could drive an HSR car to see how "bad" it really is off the line...
BadSS, thanks for the input. I had an 87SS but sold it back in May '04.
I think the FIRST is going to be more up my alley. As you say with your RPM range's, that will be where I'm at 95% of the time. I wish the runner's were just a few inches shorter, so maybe peak rpm could be more like 6000-6100. But, I would not want this to be a high-rpm only car, so starting power at 3k just won't work out with my cam selection. I wish I could drive an HSR car to see how "bad" it really is off the line...
Not bad at all, AS&M semisiamesed tpi setup, and I converted it to HSR later and it barely noticed a difference off the line. But getting above 4500rpm it pulled much harder.
BadSS, thanks for the input. I had an 87SS but sold it back in May '04.
I think the FIRST is going to be more up my alley. As you say with your RPM range's, that will be where I'm at 95% of the time. I wish the runner's were just a few inches shorter, so maybe peak rpm could be more like 6000-6100. But, I would not want this to be a high-rpm only car, so starting power at 3k just won't work out with my cam selection. I wish I could drive an HSR car to see how "bad" it really is off the line...
I wouldn't say the HSR is bad off the line,,, especially once you jack up the lower rpm timing in the chip. It's very similar to how a good dual plane intake feels,, which is no slouch. In fact,, the guy I sold the car to,,, is having difficulty launching the car with the StealthRam and goes on and about how responsive it is,,, and I'm not saying it isn't. It's just if the long runner system is getting enough air to the engine and it's tuned in fairly close,,, there is just no comparison in the part throttle and midrange pull.
Just caught this thread- Very cool stuff! I'm building a 383 using the zz383 block as the base and with all forged internals. I was wondering what might be a good head and cam setup for me using the First Injection setup? I want to keep the car streetable on pump gas with about a 450hp range. I have a Pro-Built transmission, aluminum driveshaft, 2800 stall converter, and the 3.23posi rear.
I wouldn't say the HSR is bad off the line,,, especially once you jack up the lower rpm timing in the chip. It's very similar to how a good dual plane intake feels,, which is no slouch.
Quite funny you say that, because I was talking to someone on a local board and I was thinking the same thing when I was looking at the runner length etc. Its just that TPI has such an "abnormal" torque boost... When you put it like that, that's not a problem. Argh, now I'm back to not sure between the FIRST and HSR FWIW, Ken at FIRST said they would be coming out with a CNC version once the current stock is depleted (could be a while)...
Just caught this thread- Very cool stuff! I'm building a 383 using the zz383 block as the base and with all forged internals. I was wondering what might be a good head and cam setup for me using the First Injection setup? I want to keep the car streetable on pump gas with about a 450hp range. I have a Pro-Built transmission, aluminum driveshaft, 2800 stall converter, and the 3.23posi rear.
Canfields (Jegs are Canfields), TrickFlow, AFR, all are good heads and will work well with the right combination. If you have the money the M2 Track I or KC Track I heads are the best standard 23* head running now.
Cam will depend on your expectations and exhaust system. If you have large tube headers,, and a killer exhaust system,, depending on the exhuast to intake ratio,,, a single pattern cam may work best. Smaller tube headers, single 3" exhaust,,, you'll need more duration on the exhaust. I tend to recommend solid rollers when I can - like a limited use / weekend car (although I've driven them daily). However, there are some very nice hydraulic rollers out there that'll let you fully utilize the higher lift flow from the better heads if you don't mind dropping the dime on the "r" series lifters. Again,,, all depends on what you have and what you want out of the engine.
Just thought I might resurrect this thread and let everyone know that a group buy for the FIRST intake is set up in the group purchase forum. Should be able to get a good price if anyone's been looking into this setup.
Imagine if "FIRST" decided to do an "ALL OUT" ported base and siameesed runner design!!
HOLY COW!
I gotta say were very impressed with the First performance intake right out of the box my wifes iroc is very quick lots of torque.. revs easily to 5500 without an issue stock shifts points need to manually shift it next time she races it..
As long as other folks are resurrecting this thread...
WAAAY back towards the beginning of this thread there was some discussion on whether the the center of the runners could be ported without cutting into the runners. -I'm not clear on what the answer was...
One of the limitations/weaknesses of TPI runners including the FIRST runners is that you are trying to get air to make 180 degree turn and it REALLY just can't do it well at high velocities. (See attached CFD drawing from a Porsche intake with a similar shape.)
--What helps air make such an intense turn in direction is to increase the area at the point of maximum velocity (increase the area around the apex of the turn so that the velocity slows there and more of the runner area gets used) ---being able to open up that apex is really useful...
Has anyone tried or considered using something like a 1 7/8" (1.875") Flex Hone with aluminum oxide @ say 40 grit to try and open up the center of the runners? This would be the BC series Flexhones; they have a length of only 8", but it's dead simple to just use an old pushrod length checker and some JB weld and extend the length. -The flex hone is kind flexible and would naturally move more of the outside of the runner curve than the inside, which is really what you want anyway to help the air make the turn. You could follow up with 120 grit to end up with a smoother finish...
07-16-2005, 09:54 AM
FWIW, Ken at FIRST said they would be coming out with a CNC version once the current stock is depleted (could be a while)... 
