SIMON HOLTBY

Everyone seems to use the Atmel 29 series EEPROMS but will the following chips work also SST27SF*** It looks like a direct replacement for the 27 series EPROMS out cars come with.
Reason I ask is because I cant get Atmel chips.

Thanks
Simon

Craig Moates

I can send you some. www.moates.net

SIMON HOLTBY

Craig,

Thanks for the offer. My current project is to convert my car to speed density. I am awaiting an ECU and other required parts. Do you remember how you helped me before so I could switch between 2 bins on a 29c256 chip? I'm hopeing I can do the same with a 730 ECU using a 512k chip. With a 165 ecu we used 5v or 0v on address pin 14 with a 512k chip it should be the same but with address pin 15.
I'll try a sst27sf512 chip, they only cost a couple of ££ if that doesnt work I'll order from you although I'm not sure if you sell 29c512 chips?

Thanks

Simon

Craig Moates

Yeah, the 29C512+ stuff is 32-pin though, so some repinning is needed. Pretty minor though...

ZaphodB

You sure about that?

*Looking a a pile of 27C512 EPROMS*....

Thought most EPROMS were pin compatible to their corresponding EEPROM/FLASH counterparts...

Craig Moates

29C512, the EEPROM/Flash counterpart to a 27C512, is 32 compared to 28 pin. Just not enough legs I suppose. Most of the pin locations are the same though. Only like 2-3 reroutes needed. Do a search for the PDFs on Yahoo or go to the Atmel site. The layout of all the different chips is out there.

SIMON HOLTBY

I think 27c512 eproms come in either 28 or 32 pin types. I have checked and the atmel 29c512 is 32 pin. I agree that I could use this but a 28 pin eeprom is obviously better and the data sheet for an sst 27SF512 shows it as a 28 pin device.
On a 256k device pin 1 is Vpp but on a 512k pin 1 becomes address 15 and vpp shares the same pin an output enable. So pin 1 would be used to switch between top and bottom halves of the chip. A standard 7730 ecu would read the top half as it would think pin 1 is (NOT)Vpp and set the pin to 5v.
Just to confuse things further my local electronics store lists the device as being 32 pin. They have only just started selling them and did not have one in stock so I'm hopeing their description is wrong. They have ordered one for me to look at on Friday.


Simon

Craig Moates

http://www.sst.com/products/pdf/S71152.pdf

Sweet! Looks like the 27SF512 is 28-pin after all!

It's power-pin compatible with the 27C512 / 27C256 / 27C128 also, so no repinning necessary. All you gotta do is lift the pin on leg 27 and switch 0-5V to it. Awesome!

Good find. This is a NICE product especially for the folks using 512 chips.

That's how they got away with fewer pins, it's a DUAL voltage device, 12V programming and 5v output enable in the same pin, nicely done...

Am I missing something? This will work like a charm & a half...

Keep in mind, the Vpp is your programming voltage while the Vdd is your supply, so you should be cool...

SIMON HOLTBY

I think it will work fine also.

Just to correct you on a point. If using a 7730 ecu 256k bin, pin 1 (address 15) needs to be lifted and with a 165 ecu 128k bin pins 27 and 1 (addresses 14 and 15) could be lifted to allow 4 bins to be stored.

I think I have included a picture of my engine to show you how it runs on propane

Simon

SIMON HOLTBY

The top pipe is the propane supply pipe and the bottom 2 are connected to the throttle body coolant pipes? to stop the vapourizer freezing.
Here is a pic of the propane tank. A snug fit under the rear storage hatch!

Morley

Heh, NO smoking in the vehicle!
About how many miles can you go on that cylinder (I'm assuming it is a 50 lb cylinder?).

SIMON HOLTBY

and a pic of the switch to run on either propane or gas. It has 4 LEDs to indicate how much propane is in the tank. The 2 LEDs above the switch indicate if mixture is rich or lean

SIMON HOLTBY

Yes no smoking and a shunt up the rear could mean I enter orbit! Seriously though the gas valve on the tank is surrounded by a plastic cover which vents through those 2 thick pipes and also contains the fill and supply pipes which are about 10mm diameter.

Another pic of the engine

SIMON HOLTBY

I'm getting a bit carried away here but finally here is a picture of Richmond. My Camaro sure gets people looking out the windows!

SIMON HOLTBY

That didn't seem to work

SIMON HOLTBY

12 us gallon cylinder about 200 miles per fill

Morley

Ok, 12 gal for 200 miles. About the same as I get burning dead dinosaurs.

Craig Moates

I guess carbon is carbon...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

htfdtw?

SIMON HOLTBY

htfdtw???

Mark305TBI

How the f**k does that work? maybe, just guessing...

caleb

So what you are saying is that you can have multiple bins on one chip?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yeha, thats what ie means. Sorry..

So.. How does it work?

-- Joe

SIMON HOLTBY

My car can run on either gas or propane and I have 2 bins which I switch between depending on what fuel I'm running on. As I need different fueling(ie no gas when using propane) and timming. At the moment I use a 165 ECU with an Atmel 29C256 which is able to hold 2 bins for this type of ECU.
I'm hopeing to change to a 730 SD ECU and the atmel chip will now only hold 1 bin so I needed to find a 28 pin 512k bin which I have found with a sst 27sf512 chip. This chip could be used with a 165 ecu allowing 4 bins to be used.

The reason I mostly run on propane is because it is cheaper. Gas is 76p a litre and propane is 34p.

It works like this..

When I switch to propane it switches to a bin which cuts off most of the gas. I still add some gas at high MAF values as I cant get enough propane.
A couple of solenoids open to allow liquid propane to flow to the vapourizer. This is made up of 3 chambers which vapourizes the fuel. The fuel would freeze but doesnt due to it being connected to the coolant circuit.
The propane enters the engine before the throttle body. Put simply the wider open the throttle the greater the suction on a rubber diaphragm in the vapourizer which opens a jet to allow more fuel to flow.
That mixture valve contains a stepper motor which monitors the lambda sensor and tries to keep the mixture correct. It also monitors the throttle position voltage to allow a richer mixture during acceleration and can cut fuel on overrun.

Hope this answers your questions

Simon

Blazerguy

Has anyone found a source for these sst 27SF512 EEPROMs yet? I am having no luck thus far.

EDIT: I have found a source, is there any potential problem with going with a faster chip (150ns versus 70 or 90 ns)?

SIMON HOLTBY

There is no problem going with faster chips. I have yet to hear of any speed related problems. The ecu is that slow in our cars by modern standards any speed eeprom seems to work.


Simon

Craig Moates

Where'd you find the source? I found some of the PLCC-type but no DIP yet.

Also, there's a cross-reference for drop-in compatibility with a Winbond W27E512.

Blazerguy

Future Active has them, I had to buy 13 though. the part number was SST27SF512-070-3C-PG. I hope that this is correct, I went through the link listed earlier in this thread to obtain the part number. I cannot see myself needing more than 2 or 3, if you want 1 or 2 (or even all of the ones I don't need) let me know & we can work something out. I am sure (as I am just getting started in this) that I will be coming to you guys lots in the future for assistance.

EDIT: url thingy not correctly formed

SIMON HOLTBY

Blazer, what made you choose the SST chips over the Atmel type?
Are you planning to use 2 bins for a 730 ecu or 4 bins for a 165 ecu?
If the Atmel chips are easier to get hold of they will most likely be all most people need.

Simon

SIMON HOLTBY

£2.99 in the UK.

I still have not tried mine yet as I'm waiting for a 7730 ECU, MAP sensor , prom from a successful bid on E-BAY. I have not heard from the guy for a few weeks now so chances are I wont be getting it.
Craig the guy said he accepted Paypal but when I first mailed him he said his account was not working at the moment and I should send a money order. Does this sound a bit suspicious? Credit card payment is by far the easiest method for me when buying overseas. I only bid on the ECU and he was going to get the other parts for me and let me know total cost.

Simon

Blazerguy

From my limited information, it seemed that this chip would work for my truck and would not require the time of a UV erase each time. You have gone beyond my knowledge as to which ECM I have, the service number is 16197427 maybe someone else knows?

As far as ordering anything from Future Active, consider this a fair warning to what I would consider gross incompetence on their part. I ordered the eproms and paid the extra dough for overnight shipping. The order went in at 12:50 pm their time. I called to check on the order, and they said the eproms were in stock and they will leave their facility either today or Monday. Funny I didn't read anything about a 1-2 day time warp due on their website.

Craig Moates

Well? Anyone try these yet? I just ordered a few, will have some feedback on this next week. Might be helpful for the EEC project...

Did I say that out loud?

Blazerguy

I finally received mine, I shall see this weekend. Methinks I gotta read my original prom, haven't found a bin file online that would be close to my goofy V6.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the chip adapter (from fastchips) only plugs into one section of my memcal. Are these the pins that my little adapter need to plug into in order to read the prom without desoldering it from the memcal?

SIMON HOLTBY

Sorry Craig but the guy who was selling me a speed density setup is not responding to my emails so I wont be trying my SST chip. It is too much trouble unsoldering my Atmel chip which works OK with my MAF setup.

EEC project? look forward to hearing more about that. I hope hurricane Lilly doesnt blow your car away.

Blazer,

I'm not familiar with your chip adapter but I'm guessing it is something with 28 pins that plugs into the memcal and the other end plugs in the programmer. Just look where the eprom is in the memcal and plug the adapter in underneath. Make sure the eprom isnt the equivalent of being wrong way up in the programmer.
Other way of course is to unsolder the eprom and put it straight in the programmer.

You could if you have not already try

www.diy-efi.org

for a bin

Simon

Blazerguy

I was a little shaky as it was my first attempt at reading the info from my memcal, and also my first eprom. Nonetheless, I am on the 3rd revision now using this new chip and everything seems to be working great. Ya know, it makes me feel stupid that I paid Fastchips $300 to burn me a chip. I made most of the same revisions that I had them make within 5 minutes. At least that got me a chip adapter with the socket for a prom. Thanks to everyone for all your help and information in this and other threads. This should be fun.

Craig Moates

Sweet, so the new 27SF512 works without a hitch? Using the Pocket Programmer? I guess I'll get to take a couple stabs later this week. Woo-hoo!

Yeah, $300 is a little high for a socket-to-ECM adapter. Coulda sold you one for $33...

SIMON HOLTBY

Pleased to hear the chip worked OK. I have gained a lot from burning my own chips for little money. Hopefully you will too.
Everyone who can burn their own chips says that the end result is better than buying a 'performance' chip.

Simon

Blazerguy

It just occurred to me, I might want to clarify. I am actually using the Pocket Programmer 2, and the 27SF512 works fine. I DO get a message from the software saying that this chip might not work with earlier versions of the pocket programmer. Just thought I would make sure everyone was aware of this.

Yep, I overpaid for the socket to ECM adapter. But, it was two years ago and I was focusing attention on other things. It kinda chaps my hide when I realize that I paid that much for Fastchips to touch 2 tables and 2 constants. Oh well, live and learn I guess. Won't happen again to my friends or myself.

Craig Moates

Boy, was I ever pissed off when I loaded up a 27SF512 into my Pocket-Programmer-One, and it said "NOT SUPPORTED!".

Well, once again, I didn't call the Xtronics people but instead contacted the Intronics folks (words of advice...just my experience). Are they the same? The personality of the interface is much different I seem to believe. Just me? don't know.

They told me how to rig up an adapter. Easy as pie. This way, you can use the PP1 on the 27SF512 chips. I figured the details on reducing it to practice. This is for the archive.

Step 1: Get yourself a 32-pin 'collet' socket, the one with the rigid legs.

Step 2: Cut off leg '26' at the shoulder, leaving a nub you can still solder to.

Step 3: Solder a small wire connection (a resistor leg will do) in between the 32-pin socket pin #1 (top left) and the 32-pin cut-off shoulder you just clipped.

Step 4: Snap in a 28-pin ZIF into the 32-pin socket. Leave the 32-pin-socket pins 1,2,31,and 32 unattached to the ZIF.

You now have a working 27SF512 'erase' adapter. The 27SF512 goes in the 28-pin ZIF, and the 32 (well, 31)-pin socket goes into the PP-One (it's a little trick to get it in with the PP-bound ZIF handle, but not bad).

Once the Flash is erased, you will need to remove the adapter to get it to program. Just put the Flash chip right in the PP-One normally for programming, you'll need the adapter for erasing it only.

NOTE!: This will only work with the "DOS" version. You have to go into the sub-menus under F)lash and E)eprom to select it. To erase, act like you're going to do a blank check, and it will prompt you to change a switch setting. That's when you need the adapter.

Another note: I was able to run the DOS version of the PP-One software successfully through a window in WinXP, but I HAD to have that "UserPort 1.0" utility up and running. Wonder if that utility will make my ALDL software work. Bet it will....

I've got pics if you want, but it's real basic. New lease on life for 512 users!

Have fun! Gonna go drop one of these babies in the stang & see what happens...

Craig Moates

Flawless operation, works like a charm. Yeehaw!

Morley

Craig, where did you find a contact for Intronics? I have been looking for one ever since I got my SPEP programmer from them (via Futurlec).

Craig Moates

http://www.in-ks.com/

Morley

Yep, thats the one I found. Not much info there.

Craig Moates

Call em on the non-800 line...