Rough Idle
09-01-2005, 04:25 PM
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
Rough Idle
I hope someone has some time to help me?? I am completely lost for ideas. I have a 1951 Ford Pro Street. I put a tuned Port in it. The tune Port sits on a 400 Chevy SB. The computer is a 1992 camaro with serivce number 7730 at the end of it. The harness and computer came from "Larry's Electric" The Eprom that came with it is a factory e-prom 27C256 that has the UV programmable style. I talked to Larry's electric and he said the only thing he does to the chips are to undo the EGR and some secerity issues. With this my car runs and idles and drives just great. The problem lies when I am at a dead stop and go to WOT(to do a burnout) the car jumps up and breaks the tires loose for about 5 seconds. then it falls on its face and the car sounds like it is off untill I let off the throttle. Then the car comes back and idles just great but I can not do a burnout. I got all of Moates DIY tunning equipement because I wanted to change the Cylinder Volume and injector flow rate to 24 to match my 400 and bigger injectors. When I read my "Larry's electric eprom" and burned an "exact copy to the 27S512 chip of Moates I can not get the car to run correct. It idles very funny and blows black smoke out the back bad. That is one problem I am having???? (Yes the chip is in the correct position and I am saving it to 8000 hex) another is when I open the original bin file I see the chip code mask is AA what the heck is that I know it bypasses the checksum it should be 8D. I got a S&P bin file from a guy to try that and then I did the compare to my original eprom in Tuner Pro and the only difference in the entire thing were ---Chip Code mask AA compared to 8D The Checksum 55810 compared to 54481. some fan temps (enable and dissable) and the S&P had the EGR constant turned on which I turned off. other than that the S&P were exactly the same. When I put the S&P chip in the car blows black smoke and idles real rough but as soon as I put the Larry's electric in it starts and idles just fine I just can't do a burnout. I think with that chip I am running out of fuel?????????? One last Item when the car is running real bad with either the original copy or the S&P chip that I burned from Moates I can hook my Snap On Scanner to the car and it say "OK TO DRIVE NO CODES" but directly under this it says
"Wrong Prom installed/Cylinder selct ???????? WHAT????
completely frustrated and about to go to an ugly junk carburator to fix the problem.
Thanks in advance
Trever
:doh:
"Wrong Prom installed/Cylinder selct ???????? WHAT????
completely frustrated and about to go to an ugly junk carburator to fix the problem.
Thanks in advance
Trever
:doh:
09-01-2005, 08:57 PM
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Car: 86 Monte SS (730,$8D,G3,AP,4K,S_V4)
Engine: 406 Hyd Roller 236/242
Transmission: 700R4 HomeBrew, 2.4K stall
Axle/Gears: 3:73 Posi, 7.5 Soon to break
What kind of revs are you pulling when doing the burnout?
Could be the fuel cutoff at these address's
could be set that you are hitting it when spinning hard then the sudden cut off spooks you into letting off when it doesn't recover smoothly.
The other error could be that the "select" is set incorrectly
If "08" is entered it is for a V6 and the fueling is different and could cause you to be filthy rich.
OR
the memcal itself is from a V6 and has a hardwired error being thrown and not showing up in the error list.
Not 100% sure on the hardwired connection of it
but I know it will make the code show if used.
(Code 41 Cyl Sel, could be disabled from being shown in the code)
This is from AUJP, which uses a 700r4 trans.
The addressses should be the same (in most cases) but confirm you are changing the right things before altering them.
Remember the values here are in hex.
Something to take a look at.
Could be the fuel cutoff at these address's
Code:
;--------------------------------------- ; FUEL CUT OFF/ON PARAMS ;--------------------------------------- L83F4: .byte 0xFF ;MPH FUEL CUT OFF L83F5: .byte 0x00,0x62 ;RPM FUEL CUT OFF L83F7: .byte 0xFE ;MPH FUEL RETURN L83F8: .byte 0x00,0x67 ;RPM FUEL RETURN ;----------------------------------------------------------------
The other error could be that the "select" is set incorrectly
If "08" is entered it is for a V6 and the fueling is different and could cause you to be filthy rich.
OR
the memcal itself is from a V6 and has a hardwired error being thrown and not showing up in the error list.
Not 100% sure on the hardwired connection of it
but I know it will make the code show if used.
(Code 41 Cyl Sel, could be disabled from being shown in the code)
Code:
L824B: .byte 0x7F ; 0111 1111 ERROR WORD 3 MASK
;
; b0 = CODE 51 EPROM
; b1 = CODE 46 VATS
; b2 = CODE 45 HI o2
; b3 = CODE 44 LO o2
;
; b4 = CODE 43 KNOCK
; b5 = CODE 42 EST MONITOR
; b6 = CODE 41 CYL SELECT
; b7 = CODE 36 -
;---------------------------
;------------------------------------------------------------
; ERROR 41, cyl select
;------------------------------------------------------------
L8293: .byte 0x00 ; CYLINDER SELECT
; 0x00 = 8 CYL
; 0x18 = TBI
; 0x10 = 4 CYL
; 0x08 = 6 CYL
;-------------------------------- The addressses should be the same (in most cases) but confirm you are changing the right things before altering them.
Remember the values here are in hex.
Something to take a look at.
09-01-2005, 09:01 PM
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Car: 86 Monte SS (730,$8D,G3,AP,4K,S_V4)
Engine: 406 Hyd Roller 236/242
Transmission: 700R4 HomeBrew, 2.4K stall
Axle/Gears: 3:73 Posi, 7.5 Soon to break
Oh yea, forgot to say if you are using TP then just recalculate the checksum AFTER putting the 8D back in and see how that works.
If it still has problems, just set it back to AA until you get it figured out.
Jp
If it still has problems, just set it back to AA until you get it figured out.
Jp
09-01-2005, 10:01 PM
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
With the original E-Prom from Larry's Electric that came with the computer and wire harness the car run and idles just great maybe a little rich but I think that is because the injector flow rate and cylinder volume. When it cuts out while doing a burnout it is only between 3500 RPM and 4000 RPM so I don't believe it is hitting a limitter. I can't believe I can't read the eprom save it as 1951.bin and program it to the moates chip and have the car run and idle the same as the factory chip. instead the burned chip blows black smoke out???? and has no throttle response. is it possible i am burning the chip wrong????
Trever
Trever
09-01-2005, 10:06 PM
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
also to shut the cylinder select off can I do it in tunner pro or does it have to be in a text editor
trever
trever
09-01-2005, 10:07 PM
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Car: 83 TA, 89 TTA, others
Engine: ZZ4 TPI, LC2 turbo v6
Transmission: several, mostly broken
Originally posted by brandenbtl16
is it possible i am burning the chip wrong????
Trever
is it possible i am burning the chip wrong????
Trever
Are you sure you've got the programming offset correct? If not, you could be loading the program into the wrong half of the chip.
09-01-2005, 10:16 PM
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Car: 86 Monte SS (730,$8D,G3,AP,4K,S_V4)
Engine: 406 Hyd Roller 236/242
Transmission: 700R4 HomeBrew, 2.4K stall
Axle/Gears: 3:73 Posi, 7.5 Soon to break
Good call Dave, I missed that.
$8D is 32K so be sure you are locating it correctly.
edit: (why does it take up 256?)
Should be able to check the cyl select in TP and edit it there if needed.
You could try "stacking" the same bin multiple times to fill the chip if your not sure where to locate the one section.
I think ?? that the bin should be at the end of the chip to work properly but I'm not 100% sure. (I haven't used the 512)
I would think its been located ok or it wouldn't run on the chip at all.
$8D is 32K so be sure you are locating it correctly.
edit: (why does it take up 256?)
Should be able to check the cyl select in TP and edit it there if needed.
You could try "stacking" the same bin multiple times to fill the chip if your not sure where to locate the one section.
I think ?? that the bin should be at the end of the chip to work properly but I'm not 100% sure. (I haven't used the 512)
I would think its been located ok or it wouldn't run on the chip at all.
Last edited by JP86SS; 09-01-2005 at 10:29 PM.
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09-01-2005, 10:49 PM
#8
From what I've seen around here. If it doesn't run right after a burn. Then something is wrong with the burn.
It sounds as if he's running in limp mode with the chip he burned.
Cyl select is what it is. Bad prom....IIRC it's hard wired.
I need to see what happens when you use a non 00 for cyl # on the bench.
Are you saying that your Larry's chip has the cyl vol set for something other than a 400?
What ECU/XDF are you using?
It sounds as if he's running in limp mode with the chip he burned.
Cyl select is what it is. Bad prom....IIRC it's hard wired.
I need to see what happens when you use a non 00 for cyl # on the bench.
Are you saying that your Larry's chip has the cyl vol set for something other than a 400?
What ECU/XDF are you using?
09-01-2005, 10:56 PM
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Car: 83 TA, 89 TTA, others
Engine: ZZ4 TPI, LC2 turbo v6
Transmission: several, mostly broken
Originally posted by JP86SS
Good call Dave, I missed that.
$8D is 32K so be sure you are locating it correctly.
edit: (why does it take up 256?)
I would think its been located ok or it wouldn't run on the chip at all.
Good call Dave, I missed that.
$8D is 32K so be sure you are locating it correctly.
edit: (why does it take up 256?)
I would think its been located ok or it wouldn't run on the chip at all.
32K bytes = 32x8, or 256 Kbit.
Doubling the 8D bin should make it fill a 512.
Or, setting the offset to $8000 ("start of device" or somesuch)
I think the tunerpro bin stacker tool lists everything in bytes, not bits...so you'd set if for a 32K bin, and a 64K chip.
(Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...I've mostly been using 29c256's for 8D lately so as not to have to worry about all that offset stuff
)I was thinking that with a bad PROM in a good MEMCAL, he might be running in limp mode...which would easily explain it running like crap.
09-01-2005, 11:01 PM
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Car: 86 Monte SS (730,$8D,G3,AP,4K,S_V4)
Engine: 406 Hyd Roller 236/242
Transmission: 700R4 HomeBrew, 2.4K stall
Axle/Gears: 3:73 Posi, 7.5 Soon to break
Got it!
Darn metric system 
edit: FYI, for future reference
I found an old RBob comment in a post:
Was concerning a 7747 ECM but may be the same pin.
edit: FYI, for future reference
I found an old RBob comment in a post:
Was concerning a 7747 ECM but may be the same pin.
"Changing the cylinder select will change the at-crank timing. I would double check what the base timing is and also use the proper cyl select value.
As for using a 6 cylinder NETRES on an 8, try lifting out pin 9. That one seems to be a mode select of some sort. I meant to look inot this but forgot about it. Pin 9 on an 8 cylinder NETRES is infinate in resistance. Where it is 4.6K on a 6 cyl NETRES.
RBob."
As for using a 6 cylinder NETRES on an 8, try lifting out pin 9. That one seems to be a mode select of some sort. I meant to look inot this but forgot about it. Pin 9 on an 8 cylinder NETRES is infinate in resistance. Where it is 4.6K on a 6 cyl NETRES.
RBob."
Last edited by JP86SS; 09-01-2005 at 11:05 PM.
09-01-2005, 11:05 PM
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Car: 83 TA, 89 TTA, others
Engine: ZZ4 TPI, LC2 turbo v6
Transmission: several, mostly broken
Wait a minute, one of my three remaining active brain cells just kicked in...
Suppose ol' Larry burned the V8 bin onto a V6 memcal?
It'd definitely be screwed up the RPM and rev limiter calcs, at a minimum. And that might explain a "cylinder select errror", if the PROM and MEMCAL didn't agree.
Suppose ol' Larry burned the V8 bin onto a V6 memcal?
It'd definitely be screwed up the RPM and rev limiter calcs, at a minimum. And that might explain a "cylinder select errror", if the PROM and MEMCAL didn't agree.
09-01-2005, 11:10 PM
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Car: 86 Monte SS (730,$8D,G3,AP,4K,S_V4)
Engine: 406 Hyd Roller 236/242
Transmission: 700R4 HomeBrew, 2.4K stall
Axle/Gears: 3:73 Posi, 7.5 Soon to break
With V6 selected I believe there is a fueling calculation change with a multiplier or something. (I've heard anyway)
09-02-2005, 12:35 AM
#13
Yep, that is what I was IIRCing, the Rbob post.
Also a loose connection/missing prom will do it too now that I think about it.
Note that code 41 is set after a RES pack read.
Also a loose connection/missing prom will do it too now that I think about it.
Note that code 41 is set after a RES pack read.
Code:
; jsr LE307 ; FMD SERIAL BYTE READ (Is LE2FF in ANHT)
; (Is LE2FF in ANHT)
staa *L0032 ; SAVE FMD 2 DEVICE RESULTS
-Snip-
CHECK FOR CYLINDER SELECT ERROR
;
LE7DB: ldab *L0032 ; FMD BYTE 2, FROM RES PACK ; CRef: 0xE7D6
andb #0x18 ; MASK FOR BIT'S 3 & 4
cmpb L8293 ; 0d, ERROR 41, cyl select
beq LE7E7 ; BR IF MODE BITS OK (Goes to LE7DF IN ANHT)
; ... else
bset *L0041,#0x01 ; SET ERROR 41 BIT (CYLINDER SELECT ERROR)
LE7E7: brset *L0037,#0x80,LE7EE ; BR IF b7, ENG RUNNING (Goes to LE7E6 IN ANHT) ; CRef: 0xE7E2
; ... else
LE7EB: jmp LE901 ; JUMP TO ... (Is LE8F9 in ANHT) ; CRef: 0xE7C4
;-------------------------------------------------------
09-03-2005, 10:26 PM
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
As soon as I read "black smoke" with a bad burn in a chip I thought V6 Memcal. If it is running limp mode on the V6 memcal it will be extremely rich.
I always use the multiple bin trick in chips bigger than the factory chip. I don't know how the prom adapter thing is wired so I can't guess where the "real" bin should go. The multiple trick will always work though. Ask Moates how to properly program the chip with whatever equip. you got from him.
I would pull the MEMCAL and see if it is V6 or V8. You don't want a V6 memcal in it if it is a V8. The limp hardware would squirt too much fuel.
What are the O2 sensor readings when the engine cuts out? Could be fuel or could be spark or could be mechanical.
Make sure you set both injector constants (double and single fire) to what you injectors are.
J
I always use the multiple bin trick in chips bigger than the factory chip. I don't know how the prom adapter thing is wired so I can't guess where the "real" bin should go. The multiple trick will always work though. Ask Moates how to properly program the chip with whatever equip. you got from him.
I would pull the MEMCAL and see if it is V6 or V8. You don't want a V6 memcal in it if it is a V8. The limp hardware would squirt too much fuel.
What are the O2 sensor readings when the engine cuts out? Could be fuel or could be spark or could be mechanical.
Make sure you set both injector constants (double and single fire) to what you injectors are.
J
Last edited by junkcltr; 09-03-2005 at 10:29 PM.
09-04-2005, 12:21 AM
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Car: 89 Irocz
Engine: 350TPI $6E
Transmission: 700R4
Larry lives just down the road from me.
Did you try reburning the chip? or stacking the bins on the chip?
Did you try reburning the chip? or stacking the bins on the chip?
09-04-2005, 11:51 AM
#16
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
Did you try reburning the chip? or stacking the bins on the chip?
Yes I tried to stack the original bin from Larry's electric labeled 1951ford.bin
same problem
Trever
09-04-2005, 05:11 PM
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Car: 89 Irocz
Engine: 350TPI $6E
Transmission: 700R4
I guess I'd try to burn on a 3rd chip to elimenate the chip. Otherwise I think it would have to be the memcal or a change in the bin.
Same thing happen if you burn a different bin on the chip?
Same thing happen if you burn a different bin on the chip?
09-05-2005, 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by brandenbtl16
With the original E-Prom from Larry's Electric that came with the computer and wire harness the car run and idles just great maybe a little rich but I think that is because the injector flow rate and cylinder volume. When it cuts out while doing a burnout it is only between 3500 RPM and 4000 RPM so I don't believe it is hitting a limitter. I can't believe I can't read the eprom save it as 1951.bin and program it to the moates chip and have the car run and idle the same as the factory chip. instead the burned chip blows black smoke out???? and has no throttle response. is it possible i am burning the chip wrong????
Trever
With the original E-Prom from Larry's Electric that came with the computer and wire harness the car run and idles just great maybe a little rich but I think that is because the injector flow rate and cylinder volume. When it cuts out while doing a burnout it is only between 3500 RPM and 4000 RPM so I don't believe it is hitting a limitter. I can't believe I can't read the eprom save it as 1951.bin and program it to the moates chip and have the car run and idle the same as the factory chip. instead the burned chip blows black smoke out???? and has no throttle response. is it possible i am burning the chip wrong????
Trever
09-05-2005, 09:19 PM
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
Originally posted by funstick
4 ref pulses per revolution on a v6 mecal setup for 3 ref pulses per revolution would lead to a rev limiter error about 1500rpm wide at 4500 rpm.
4 ref pulses per revolution on a v6 mecal setup for 3 ref pulses per revolution would lead to a rev limiter error about 1500rpm wide at 4500 rpm.
Is there any way to tell if the chip from larry's electric is burned on a V6 memcal. With this chip the car starts and runs and drives great just no burnout. If it is a v6 Memcal could that explain why I can not make an exact copy of it on the moates 27SF512 chip. The scanner says "improper prom installed/cyl selct" and the car runs real rough and blows black smoke out the back
09-05-2005, 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by brandenbtl16
Is there any way to tell if the chip from larry's electric is burned on a V6 memcal. With this chip the car starts and runs and drives great just no burnout. If it is a v6 Memcal could that explain why I can not make an exact copy of it on the moates 27SF512 chip. The scanner says "improper prom installed/cyl selct" and the car runs real rough and blows black smoke out the back
Is there any way to tell if the chip from larry's electric is burned on a V6 memcal. With this chip the car starts and runs and drives great just no burnout. If it is a v6 Memcal could that explain why I can not make an exact copy of it on the moates 27SF512 chip. The scanner says "improper prom installed/cyl selct" and the car runs real rough and blows black smoke out the back
09-05-2005, 09:30 PM
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Car: 86 Monte SS (730,$8D,G3,AP,4K,S_V4)
Engine: 406 Hyd Roller 236/242
Transmission: 700R4 HomeBrew, 2.4K stall
Axle/Gears: 3:73 Posi, 7.5 Soon to break
Couple things,
1.) set the rev limits to max and the returns (minimums) to just below them. See if the cutout changes to confirm it is happening.
Maybe just lower the settings and see the reaction.
2.) Try burning a chip with $08 (V6) and see if the select error goes away confirming the V6 is hardwired as a select in the memcal.
3.) try to see if the pin above indicates resistance to confirm if in fact it is a v6 memcal. The discussion was for a different ECM but the memcal pinout "may" be the same for the select.
4.) And best IMO, Start fresh with known hardware.
Buy a V8 memcal and get an adapter from Moates and burn a new chip using the bin you have extracted.
Something there has to give.
1.) set the rev limits to max and the returns (minimums) to just below them. See if the cutout changes to confirm it is happening.
Maybe just lower the settings and see the reaction.
2.) Try burning a chip with $08 (V6) and see if the select error goes away confirming the V6 is hardwired as a select in the memcal.
3.) try to see if the pin above indicates resistance to confirm if in fact it is a v6 memcal. The discussion was for a different ECM but the memcal pinout "may" be the same for the select.
4.) And best IMO, Start fresh with known hardware.
Buy a V8 memcal and get an adapter from Moates and burn a new chip using the bin you have extracted.
Something there has to give.
09-05-2005, 11:34 PM
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Originally posted by JP86SS
Buy a V8 memcal and get an adapter from Moates and burn a new chip using the bin you have extracted.
Something there has to give.
Buy a V8 memcal and get an adapter from Moates and burn a new chip using the bin you have extracted.
Something there has to give.
Simple is the best way.
J
09-06-2005, 08:34 AM
#23
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
I bought the used tune port and they it is suposed to have 24lb injectors on it. I can read numbers off of both sides of the top of the injectors on the blue part. Is there any way to look these numbers up to see exactly what size they are
Trever
Trever
09-06-2005, 12:03 PM
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Car: 91 GTA - 94 TPI Suburban
Originally posted by brandenbtl16
... the top of the injectors on the blue part. Is there any way to look these numbers up to see exactly what size they are
... the top of the injectors on the blue part. Is there any way to look these numbers up to see exactly what size they are
09-06-2005, 12:24 PM
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
Originally posted by EdgesZ28
Do your injectors look like the blue injector below? If so, it is a 24# Ford SVO injector. The injector on the left is a stock Multitec. Ed
Do your injectors look like the blue injector below? If so, it is a 24# Ford SVO injector. The injector on the left is a stock Multitec. Ed
yes my injector look exactly like the one on the right. Do they make different lbs injector for the SVO style?? We are sure they are 24 lbs injectors.
Trever
09-06-2005, 01:15 PM
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Car: 91 GTA - 94 TPI Suburban
If blue, I am sure they are 24#. I put a set of Ford SVO 30# injectors in my 383 Pro-Flo EFI system and they are red. I believe Ford 42# injectors are green.
I think you are offsetting the start address correctly, so the burn is not the problem. It appears you should consider getting a new V8 MEMCAL with the AUJP bin, then try burning changes using the Moates equipment you have already purchased. As long as you are orienting the 27SF512 chip in the BURN1 and MEMCAL adapter correctly and using the proper offset, I do not see a problem there.
First time I tried burning I did not offset properly. One way to verify the burn is to set your desired idle to something like 700. If the change did not take effect, it will still read 600 on your scanner.
Gook luck, Ed
I think you are offsetting the start address correctly, so the burn is not the problem. It appears you should consider getting a new V8 MEMCAL with the AUJP bin, then try burning changes using the Moates equipment you have already purchased. As long as you are orienting the 27SF512 chip in the BURN1 and MEMCAL adapter correctly and using the proper offset, I do not see a problem there.
First time I tried burning I did not offset properly. One way to verify the burn is to set your desired idle to something like 700. If the change did not take effect, it will still read 600 on your scanner.
Gook luck, Ed
09-06-2005, 06:13 PM
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Car: 86 Monte SS (730,$8D,G3,AP,4K,S_V4)
Engine: 406 Hyd Roller 236/242
Transmission: 700R4 HomeBrew, 2.4K stall
Axle/Gears: 3:73 Posi, 7.5 Soon to break
It MUST be the memcal is from a V6.
I had a quick look at his file and its a stock tabled AUJP.
The bin had VATS, the EGR (32) and select (41) errors turned off. fan temp lowered as well.
As he said it is pretty much stock and should have burned and run correctly IF its on a V8 memcal. I thought there would be a bit more for a bought chip but he's given you what he said.
Check your fuel pressure to be sure your constant will be correct when making the change to 24 if you pressure is not set as stock.
Also there should be no reason to leave the $AA in the ID. Change it back to the $8D and recalc the checksum in TP.
Jp
I had a quick look at his file and its a stock tabled AUJP.
The bin had VATS, the EGR (32) and select (41) errors turned off. fan temp lowered as well.
As he said it is pretty much stock and should have burned and run correctly IF its on a V8 memcal. I thought there would be a bit more for a bought chip but he's given you what he said.
Check your fuel pressure to be sure your constant will be correct when making the change to 24 if you pressure is not set as stock.
Also there should be no reason to leave the $AA in the ID. Change it back to the $8D and recalc the checksum in TP.
Jp
09-06-2005, 10:51 PM
#28
09-09-2005, 08:21 PM
#29
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
Ok guys I am back. Memcal problems I have now got the chip burned correctly and switched the AA mask to 8D.
I changed the injector rate to 24 (to match my 24# injectors)and
changed the cyl volume to 819 to match my 400 SB.
The problem is still there however. When I stomp the throttle to the floor the car jumps up and breaks the tires loose and then instantly cuts out like the car is completly off. It will then stumble and come back to me and then try and take off.
Here is what my research has found:
I have an adjustable fuel regulator but can not get adjustment below 48 psi with the vaccum disconnected
block learn is at 108 at idle
stumble gets worse when the car is hot
car will not start when car is hot(like a timing issue but I have triple checked the timing and is 6* with the tan wire disconnected)
Snap On scanner reads ("no codes ok to drive")
Trever
I changed the injector rate to 24 (to match my 24# injectors)and
changed the cyl volume to 819 to match my 400 SB.
The problem is still there however. When I stomp the throttle to the floor the car jumps up and breaks the tires loose and then instantly cuts out like the car is completly off. It will then stumble and come back to me and then try and take off.
Here is what my research has found:
I have an adjustable fuel regulator but can not get adjustment below 48 psi with the vaccum disconnected
block learn is at 108 at idle
stumble gets worse when the car is hot
car will not start when car is hot(like a timing issue but I have triple checked the timing and is 6* with the tan wire disconnected)
Snap On scanner reads ("no codes ok to drive")
Trever
09-09-2005, 09:56 PM
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Car: 86 Monte SS (730,$8D,G3,AP,4K,S_V4)
Engine: 406 Hyd Roller 236/242
Transmission: 700R4 HomeBrew, 2.4K stall
Axle/Gears: 3:73 Posi, 7.5 Soon to break
Did you get a new memcal for a V8?
The 108 at idle indicates its way too rich and can't remove any more fuel than it is already doing so I would try to raise the injector constant to 28 or 30 as a place to start to bring it back into line. May also help with the hot starts too to put less fuel in.
The only other thing I can think of of the top of my head would be that the bin has the magnetic VSS checked. Are you running a mag pickup VSS? If your not sure what kind of sensor is in there,
Might try the optical setting by unchecking the bit 6 in AFR option Word 3 at address $0018. (just to see then put it back)
Very odd that this is happening and not by the limiters using the inputs correctly.
Could your ignition be breaking up at that RPM?
Can you get it onto the highway and slowly bring it up to those RPMs and it stays running smoothly?
Could also be that your fuel pump chokes at that delivery level.
Just happens to be right when you need it most.
Might want to tape a fuel gauge on a hose to the windshield and see what is going on there during the burnout.
The 108 at idle indicates its way too rich and can't remove any more fuel than it is already doing so I would try to raise the injector constant to 28 or 30 as a place to start to bring it back into line. May also help with the hot starts too to put less fuel in.
The only other thing I can think of of the top of my head would be that the bin has the magnetic VSS checked. Are you running a mag pickup VSS? If your not sure what kind of sensor is in there,
Might try the optical setting by unchecking the bit 6 in AFR option Word 3 at address $0018. (just to see then put it back)
Very odd that this is happening and not by the limiters using the inputs correctly.
Could your ignition be breaking up at that RPM?
Can you get it onto the highway and slowly bring it up to those RPMs and it stays running smoothly?
Could also be that your fuel pump chokes at that delivery level.
Just happens to be right when you need it most.
Might want to tape a fuel gauge on a hose to the windshield and see what is going on there during the burnout.
09-09-2005, 10:30 PM
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Car: 91 GTA - 94 TPI Suburban
Trever:
Sounds like you have the burning process down now, so its time to hone in on the problem(s).
JP86SS has some great ideas listed above.
I would definitely start with a different injector constant. Personally, since you have 24# injectors set at 48 psi, I would start with a 26.5 or 27, then maybe try 28 to 30 if the blms are still too low.
For some background, when I installed 24# Ford SVO injectors (set at 40 psi) and was not effectively burning my changes, I still had 22 in the injector constant. This was only a difference of 2. With the 24# injectors and 22 injector constant, my BLM stayed pegged at 108 throughout most RPM/load ranges. I switched back to my stock 22# injectors (set at 43.5 psi) before learning that my burns were not taking effect. So I never really got to correct the richness problem by changing the injector constant. My point is that at 48 psi, your Ford 24# SVO injectors are actually somewhere between 26.3 to 26.5 pph. That alone should be enough to cause the 108 blms.
The VSS issue is definitely worth exploring. What type are you running? When I had no VSS signal input to my #727 ECM, it would affect idle and deceleration. It would run richer and really load up during deceleration. A hard stop would often stall the vehicle. This had to do with the DFCO.
Keep us posted on what if any effect the injector constant and VSS input changes make. Ed
Sounds like you have the burning process down now, so its time to hone in on the problem(s).
JP86SS has some great ideas listed above.
I would definitely start with a different injector constant. Personally, since you have 24# injectors set at 48 psi, I would start with a 26.5 or 27, then maybe try 28 to 30 if the blms are still too low.
For some background, when I installed 24# Ford SVO injectors (set at 40 psi) and was not effectively burning my changes, I still had 22 in the injector constant. This was only a difference of 2. With the 24# injectors and 22 injector constant, my BLM stayed pegged at 108 throughout most RPM/load ranges. I switched back to my stock 22# injectors (set at 43.5 psi) before learning that my burns were not taking effect. So I never really got to correct the richness problem by changing the injector constant. My point is that at 48 psi, your Ford 24# SVO injectors are actually somewhere between 26.3 to 26.5 pph. That alone should be enough to cause the 108 blms.
The VSS issue is definitely worth exploring. What type are you running? When I had no VSS signal input to my #727 ECM, it would affect idle and deceleration. It would run richer and really load up during deceleration. A hard stop would often stall the vehicle. This had to do with the DFCO.
Keep us posted on what if any effect the injector constant and VSS input changes make. Ed
09-10-2005, 01:38 PM
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
Hey guys,
I am officially a rookie at this chip tunning I am completly imbarrased but I had the memcal turned around 180 degrees
burn was working. the adapter was reading two chips and no memcal. I deserve some heat for that
I moved the injector rate to 32 and that finally got me to a 128 block learn.
I now have the cylinder set for my 400 and the injector rate to 32
I shut the 6th bit for vss off and that did not make a difference I do not believe it is being used. I have a 700R4 in the car but it is fully mechanical now
I hooked a fuel gauge up to the fuel line when the car stumbles and the fuel pressure is still good so the pump is not failing
I froze the screen today on my snap on scanner at the time of stumble and this is what I got.
Throttle 100%
RPM 2950 O2 m(v) 59 integrator 128
tps=4.2 Block Learn=136 IAC position=39
O2 Ready =yes O2 crosscounts=3 Base PW=8.1
Decel Enlean=no desired idle=688 MAP kPa=97
MAP volts=4.7 Spark Advance=13 MAT Degrees=60
Knock=yes knock retard=2 PROM I.D.=571
Battery=12.4 fuel pump volt=12.4 EGR% duty =0 not used
Air Diver Sol=DIV Air Switch Sol=Conv
Coolant=93 C FT Cell = 4 Learned IAC=59
A/F Learned=NO
I am officially a rookie at this chip tunning I am completly imbarrased but I had the memcal turned around 180 degrees
burn was working. the adapter was reading two chips and no memcal. I deserve some heat for that
I moved the injector rate to 32 and that finally got me to a 128 block learn.
I now have the cylinder set for my 400 and the injector rate to 32
I shut the 6th bit for vss off and that did not make a difference I do not believe it is being used. I have a 700R4 in the car but it is fully mechanical now
I hooked a fuel gauge up to the fuel line when the car stumbles and the fuel pressure is still good so the pump is not failing
I froze the screen today on my snap on scanner at the time of stumble and this is what I got.
Throttle 100%
RPM 2950 O2 m(v) 59 integrator 128
tps=4.2 Block Learn=136 IAC position=39
O2 Ready =yes O2 crosscounts=3 Base PW=8.1
Decel Enlean=no desired idle=688 MAP kPa=97
MAP volts=4.7 Spark Advance=13 MAT Degrees=60
Knock=yes knock retard=2 PROM I.D.=571
Battery=12.4 fuel pump volt=12.4 EGR% duty =0 not used
Air Diver Sol=DIV Air Switch Sol=Conv
Coolant=93 C FT Cell = 4 Learned IAC=59
A/F Learned=NO
09-10-2005, 04:54 PM
#34
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
Hi Ed
Sorry I just did the test again and at stumble I am at 13 spark advance.
correct me if I am reading this wrong but if I look at my main spark tables
when the car is at 2900 RPM and the MAP kPA is at 95 the car should be at 18.98 spark advance. am I reading that graph correctly???
The S&P bin file is even higher. The spark advance on that is 20
WOW I am a ways off...
Sorry I just did the test again and at stumble I am at 13 spark advance.
correct me if I am reading this wrong but if I look at my main spark tables
when the car is at 2900 RPM and the MAP kPA is at 95 the car should be at 18.98 spark advance. am I reading that graph correctly???
The S&P bin file is even higher. The spark advance on that is 20
WOW I am a ways off...
09-10-2005, 08:30 PM
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Car: 1951 Ford
Engine: Chevy 400 SB TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Ford 9 inch 373 gears
Ok I did a little research. Tomorrow I am going to pull the distributor cap off tomorrow morning. with that low of spark advance do you think the module could be bad????
I also read an article online and two people said the shaft on the distributor was bad and when they tried to create high RPM's the gear at the end of the shaft would slip???
Does anyone think this is an option... or is this very uncommon.
I also read an article online and two people said the shaft on the distributor was bad and when they tried to create high RPM's the gear at the end of the shaft would slip???
Does anyone think this is an option... or is this very uncommon.
09-11-2005, 01:07 AM
#36
It's unusual for a gear to just up and wear out.
You have to do something to accelerate it.
HV oil pump, new cam, new gear on old cam...
Or a whole lot of miles.......
The scanner will only read the commanded spark advance.
You can put the dist where ever and the ecm won't know.
All it can see is a pulse. It has no idea what the relation to TDC is for the engine. That's the reason for having the bin match the dist setting.
You have to do something to accelerate it.
HV oil pump, new cam, new gear on old cam...
Or a whole lot of miles.......
The scanner will only read the commanded spark advance.
You can put the dist where ever and the ecm won't know.
All it can see is a pulse. It has no idea what the relation to TDC is for the engine. That's the reason for having the bin match the dist setting.
09-11-2005, 01:26 AM
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Car: 89 Irocz
Engine: 350TPI $6E
Transmission: 700R4
Originally posted by Z69
The scanner will only read the commanded spark advance.
You can put the dist where ever and the ecm won't know.
All it can see is a pulse. It has no idea what the relation to TDC is for the engine. That's the reason for having the bin match the dist setting.
The scanner will only read the commanded spark advance.
You can put the dist where ever and the ecm won't know.
All it can see is a pulse. It has no idea what the relation to TDC is for the engine. That's the reason for having the bin match the dist setting.
Have you tried unhooking the knock sensor and trying a test run?
I'm just thinking that 13* advance is too low to be seeing knock, so possibly false knock?
09-11-2005, 02:31 AM
#38
Looks to me you paid for a stock AUJP chip with vats turned off and a few other things done.
In the bin you sent me, EGR is not disabled.
But the error code 32 is.
I didn't check CCP.
Also, put your injector constant back to 24.
Then tune your ve tables for 128.
.59 O2mv.. wonder how far behind your scanner is compared to RT.
More than likely your running lean & triggering knock retard too. Both of which are making it run like doodoo.
But it idles nice......
Since you can burn chips, you might try S_AUJPv2.
It has smog delete already done correctly.
Make sure you turn VATS off and put your current settings in for inj etc. Also set the Hiway mode enable temp back to 255.
You don't want to start a fresh tune with it on.
If you are still having problems. Start a new post with a subject more in line with the problem. The experienced tuners are ignoring this thread I think.
In the bin you sent me, EGR is not disabled.
But the error code 32 is.
I didn't check CCP.
Also, put your injector constant back to 24.
Then tune your ve tables for 128.
.59 O2mv.. wonder how far behind your scanner is compared to RT.
More than likely your running lean & triggering knock retard too. Both of which are making it run like doodoo.
But it idles nice......
Since you can burn chips, you might try S_AUJPv2.
It has smog delete already done correctly.
Make sure you turn VATS off and put your current settings in for inj etc. Also set the Hiway mode enable temp back to 255.
You don't want to start a fresh tune with it on.
If you are still having problems. Start a new post with a subject more in line with the problem. The experienced tuners are ignoring this thread I think.
Last edited by Z69; 09-11-2005 at 02:56 AM.
09-11-2005, 07:27 AM
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
The 13° of reported SA may be correct. Add 6° of base and it is the 19° you see in the table. All depends upon which SA term the scanner is reporting.
As for the stumble I'd say you need more AE (also O2 is at 59mV). The PW is 8.1 msec at 2950 RPM, so there is still room for larger AE pulses.
The distributor 'gear' mentioned earlier is probably the star wheel at the top. They can loosen up on the shaft and shift. This causes all sorts of goofy problems.
RBob.
As for the stumble I'd say you need more AE (also O2 is at 59mV). The PW is 8.1 msec at 2950 RPM, so there is still room for larger AE pulses.
The distributor 'gear' mentioned earlier is probably the star wheel at the top. They can loosen up on the shaft and shift. This causes all sorts of goofy problems.
RBob.
09-11-2005, 07:29 AM
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally posted by Z69
Not sure why it didn't go the first time...
Not sure why it didn't go the first time...
RBob.
09-12-2005, 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by brandenbtl16
...I froze the screen today on my snap on scanner at the time of stumble and this is what I got.
Throttle 100%
RPM 2950 O2 m(v) 59 integrator 128
tps=4.2
...I froze the screen today on my snap on scanner at the time of stumble and this is what I got.
Throttle 100%
RPM 2950 O2 m(v) 59 integrator 128
tps=4.2
I can't imagine it is misreading tps and cutting out the fuel when the MAP is 97 kPa though.
John
09-12-2005, 09:46 AM
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Car: 91 Formula WS6 (Black, T-Tops)
Engine: 383 MiniRam (529 HP, 519 TQ - DD2K)
Transmission: Built '97 T56, Pro 5.0, CF-DF
Axle/Gears: 4.11 posi Ford 9"
TPS=4.2 means 4.2 volts, WOT should be over 4.ov and it is.
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