ghettosmurf

okay, dont just go right off and tell me to search, i have done a lot of that, but i just dont know what i should get. I need peoples opinions that have both of them.
to start. I know an LT1 would be a cheaper swap initially, i would send the heads to Loyd Elliot, have him port them and get one of his cams. His stage 2 set up is like 1500 and supposedly pumps out about low 400whp. Then i would get some hooker LT's and then all the other tranny and suspension stuff. and maybe bore it to a 355. I know these motors are about 50lbs. lighter than the current ones in our cars.

Then there is the LS1 and in the CHP september issue they showed they reached 500 hp w/just LS6 intake, LS1hotcam, and GMPP ported LS6 heads...this set up will more than likely cost a lot more, and these are about another 100 lbs. lighter than LT1's, but if i get a fiberglass SS hood thats also weight taken off. I am basically trying to get high 11's N/A and still keep the motor streetable/daily driver.
If i do decide to sell the car, which am contemplating i still would want to do one of these swaps into a chevy colorado...someone right now is making an LS1 kit for that so.....im stumped.

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

If you can afford it, the LS1 is the better choice.....

With LS1 conversion parts pretty commonplace now and the fact you can make an LS1 run 11's with very minimal work.....and still maintain it as a daily driver.....

RamAirZ

So Flyin, when u heading up to the Central Florida area, I'd like to test out my LS1 setup with ya The LS1 is the optimum choice, and the optisparks blow on LT1's. They do make a DIS ignition system for the LT1's but for the price you'd pay for the ignition plus the LT1 you could have just bought the more powerful, lighter, and fuel efficient LS1. Mine will be pushing around 600 RWHP, daily driven with about 25mpg I used the Street and Performance mount kit and the LS1 droped right in using factory motor mounts with no welding what so ever. The wiring is pretty easy with the factory harness or you can go one step better with a painless kit.

pasky

RamAirZ

Guess you haven't seen the LS1 motorsports T76 Formula 6-speed pushing 765 to the floor with 32mpg documented on the highway. I have the same kit just running 10psi instead of 12.5. The new 408 shortblock I'm building is made to handle 25psi, but I'm just gonna have it tuned at 18psi. My machinist Dennis has a Vette putting 462 to the floor, 3200 stall, 3.73 gears, heads, cam, 28mpg on the highway and 18-19 in the city. Beauty of LS1

pasky

Forced induction may get away with it, but not at 25 mpg street driving. Highway I can believe with a 6th gear. Hell I get 29 mpg with my T-56.

RamAirZ

Ya that's why I said MY setup would, it's a T76 turbo, heads, cam, LS1. T56, 4.10 rear gears. City driving around 18-20mpg. Highway around 25-26

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

Whoa, RamAirZ is back on the boards, What are you driving now, i noticed you sold your black IROC on flthirdgen.org

I drive through the central Florida area all the time (home-Miami...schoool FSU). Plus i have alot of friends at UCF.

Got any pictures of your car, or when are you getting the LS1 installed?

RamAirZ

I never sold the Iroc, I parted out the original RamAirZ when I got ran into a damn pole on the 4th of July. The new project is my 87 Iroc. I did the entire swap myself. I've pulled the motor back out of it and I'm setting up the entire car now. Roll cage, 12bolt, blah blah. Just finished the front suspension setup (90/10 drag struts, new control arms, springs, etc) It's a 4.10 gear 12-bolt waiting for the aerospace brake kit so I can install it. T56 with Spec stage 5 clutch (the new setup). I got the LS1 motorsports T76 turbo kit with blowoff, intercooler, manifolds etc etc just the other day and I've been working on that. Got the SS hood for it and once I'm done setting the car back up I'm having it painted sunset orange with some black accents. 17x11 Black ZR-1 wheels out back with polished lip and 17x9 1/2 up front. 315/35 Nitto Drag Radials and 275/40 Nittos. I'm driving around in my truck now (just got a 1998 GMC Sierra Z71). She'll be back out soon, terrorizing the streets haha. I still miss the old car though but oh well, this one will be better. I like the way your car is coming along, only problem I still have is the wing But to each his own, car looks good.

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

Should be a mean machine once you get that thing on the road.....Any ideas on when?

You got your work cut out for you with that T76 install, I looked into a blower/turbo for my car and the amount of fabrication of the whole thing turned me away from the idea.........that and the amount of money it would cost

So i've decided to just throw some heads/cam on it and continue running the 150 shot.......

Now as for suspension....we'll leave that out this discussion, why? Because i don't have any.......


ghettosmurf, do you have a budget for this engine swap?

RamAirZ

I am looking to having it back on the road before christmas. Taking my time with MMI and work all the time. The T76 kit isn't as hard as it looks. here's the kit



The turbo mounts on the front of the manifold, I may have to remove front sway bar but we'll find out this weekend. Intercooler mounts behind front bumper where the hood latch was and the piping is pretty easy (I can use the setup that came with the kit or run a pipe down through where the battery used to sit into the intercooler and back up where the charcoal canister used to be back into the motor) I'm pretty good with fabricating things, I love to do it. For some reason I would rather have something that I have to make fit, that way it's MINE, haha. I'm doing it all down in my garage. If you need any help on the car let me know. If you need any help on suspension, motor work etc hit me up. I save money by doing all the work myself.

ghettosmurf

hmm...more than likely around 8,000....how are the 5.3 truck LS1's??? i know they are gonna be a lot cheaper, only disadvantage is the iron block. Reason i ask, is i am going to put this in my camaro for a while, and eventually pull it and drop into the colorado. I will proly end up later on w/a ZZ4 in the camaro or if i like enough, maybe another LS1 if i start that route i have everything all set up...can you put the LS1/6 intake on the truck motors? i think 400 hp on the 5.3 can easily be obtainable and still unique...i dont know why but i always root for the lil guy lol...first it was the 305s...

ghettosmurf

actually you know what...just looking at kandied and flyinlow's cars....scratch the colorado thingy...i wouldnt get one til may anyways, stil doesnt change my question on the motor though lol. just had to clear it up. those 2 cars give me soo much inspiration

RamAirZ

The 5.3's are no slouch. Certain ones had 300HP, some 285. Still good power and all intake manifolds are interchangable with Gen III small blocks. 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, 6.0. They interchange with heads, intake etc. Put an LS6 intake manifold, nice cam, if you wanna keep the heads have em ported and I don't see why you couldn't come close to your 400 mark.

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

Ghettosmurf, I too used to root for the little guys (previous 305 TBI owner), however you are gonna want to go with the LS1 motor from a Camaro/Firebird, since it's so much easier for the swap, and check over at www.ls1tech.com for any questions about throwing it in your truck when done.......

$8,000 is plenty for an LS1 swap, and if you are planning on ditching A/C, it will be even cheaper......and if you are doing the work yourself, you will have loads of money left over for more suspension work, because trust me, you are going to need it.....

On a side note, get an newer LS1 motor to take adavantage of the LS6 intake already being installed a few better upgrades, not found on previous motors.....

Another reason is that when you get a camaro/trans am motor, 9 times out of 10 you are going to get the transmission to come with it and will end up getting it cheaper.......

Thanks for the offer, once i get in Florida (currently have the thirdgen in Los Angeles) I'll get a hold of you, could use your help on some of the mods i have planned for the car...........maybe we can hit up some thirdgen meets once the camaro is back on the road......

What's that T76 turbo cost, just wondering?

RamAirZ

Like Flyin said the newer F-Body LS1's used the LS6 intake manifold. The aluminum block makes a huge weight difference in the front but if your set on the 5.3 get a camaro LS1 pan, not sure if the truck oil pan will fit in the car. I deleted my A/C and it made everything so easy. Ya, when you get it back here let me know. What is it in LA for???? I paid $1800 for the kit but it costs around $5500 lol. I was originally going to make my own kit (figured cost would be around 3g's buying the parts myself and fabbing everything) but came across this deal. Good friend of mine had the kit on his 99 TA for about 3 months then got tired of it and bought a Viper. He wasn't using the kit for anything so said if I wanted it I could have it, lol.

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

Working out here for the summer in an internship.......Do you still have that 4th Gen dash for sale, if so, send me a PM.......I'd be interested.....

As a side note since it relates to this thread.......The LS1 made a trip from Miami Florida to Los Angeles California......problem free, if that isn't a test of reliability, then i don't know what is.......lol

Here is what the clearance situation is with the oil pan, i would imagine some problems with the truck oil pan, but i'm not 100% sure......

You can see the obvious lack of room for anything bigger....

I'm actually going to be switching to a tubular K-member and tubular A-arms to make a little more room and save some weight, stuff being that close doesn't make me feel that comfortable......

RamAirZ

Sorry bro, I installed the dash already. Didn't wanna ship and no one wanted it locally. I picked up a full set of Phantom Gauges and I'm fiberglassing them into the dash (5in tach and speedo with volt, water temp and fuel level) in the gauge cluster area, oil pressure, fuel pressure, nitrous pressure and boost in the A/C vents (the far vent on passenger side will not be used obviously, lol)

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

Do you have AIM, or if no instant messenger a E-mail address? I hate to hijack ghettosmurf's thread, but would like to talk with you concerning your future thirdgen plans........

RamAirZ

DalZ24@aol.com, so DalZ24 for aim

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

RamAirZ - I think you'll run into more trouble than you're expecting with the install of that turbo setup, lets see what you're posting in a week or so

Flynlow, I really dont see how you justify saying the camaro / firebird engine is such a better choice over the truck motor being that you took no part in the installation of your engine and probably havent seen one of the truck motors out of the trucks they came in.

Those that are wanting to install the truck motor, you will need the f body oil pan, the truck pan is a good deal deeper than the f body one and would cause ground clearance issues, to be exact it hangs down 3" more than the f body one. From what i've seen clearancing is required to clear how the alternator is mounted on the f body setup, truck setup mounts the ps pump down there just like a thirdgen and clears just fine, the a/c compressor mounts in the same place so theres no advantage either way there, the only thing i havent verified to fit is the intake under a stock hood since i dont have the mount kit yet, though i hope to be purchasing it somewhat in the near future, however from what i have seen with the 3rd gens with f body LS1's i'd say it will clear just fine.

The only real disadvantage on the truck motors part is those that want a T56 with the install, since the trucks didnt come with them, however for those going for an auto setup i'd definetly have to say the truck 6.0 would be the most preferrable providing you can get a good price on one.

Though after all is said and done, you'll have a 11 sec streetable LT1 swap far cheaper and easier than an LS1 8 times out of 10.

Matt_Ky

Having purchased a low mileage 1998 Z recently, the LS1 is no doubt loads of fun to drive but...
Get used to the nasty piston slap
High oil pump failure rate, not corrected until mid-2000 production (get a 2001 oil pump if your running a 1998-2000 block)
Poorly designed PCV system (catch can helps). Not sure, but I do not think this was corrected on the later LS1/LS6

All and all, no regrets!! I love it! Mine has very little piston slap and does not use oil as bad as some. When I was looking for a Camaro to replace my wrecked 1991 Camaro, I drove a low mileage well taken care of 1997 LT1 and then the 1998. LS1 hands down! The LT1 is no slouch either.

My 02

RamAirZ

I know it's not going to be a breeze, no question on that. But I also know it's not going to be as hard as alot of people think. I've set up a couple turbo's on 4th gen LS1's here in town and I've TEST fitted most of my piping. The manifold will fit fine along with the crossover pipe, the intercooler is fine, and I can reuse some of the inlet ducting but to go around into the intercooler I'm going to have to redo as well as off the intercooler out from behind teh front bumper. A T56 out of an LS1 F-Body will work on a Gen III truck motor. Get the right tranny, flywheel, clutch etc and you can use it. Alot of people are using the Iron 6.0 block in there 4th gens because it's so much easier to bore and hold lots of boost.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

But have you fit the turbo onto the manifold with the steering box still in the car ? Or are you running a rack conversion ? I just dont see the turbo clearing in the car, let alone the crossover fitting and then a decent sized downpipe.

Youre absolutely correct on the T56, thats what i've got sitting here to bolt to my 4.8, I just mentioned it as a *slight* advantage that the LS1 could be had with it already bolted up.

ghettosmurf

so why the LS1, i mean i know its a killer engine, and i hear you guys when your like oh i drove a 97, then i drove a 98. see i have never driven either one so i have no clue, is it really that much different. or is it just so i can be like...yah i have an LS1? cuz im sure i can get the mid 400 mark w/an LT1 for about 2k after the motor, the LS1 is gonna cost more to buy, then more to install, and i cant put headers on it, and the aftermarket costs more. is the weight and all that big of difference? i mean i know if i wanna go faster than high 11's low 12's that the LS1 will easily take me there, but if i dont plan on that then???

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

Why the Ls1?

Do you have a few minutes to read all this....?

:lala:

http://www.idavette.net/hib/ls1c.html

RamAirZ

Hey bro, the LS1 is a better designed motor. I love LT1's as well, great setup but the optispark ignition and other changes kept me away from it. Either motor will take you where you wanna go with the right setup. An LS1 with an auto with 3200 stall, gears, exhaust, drag radials and some other minor mods will be a low12 second car. Slap a 150 shot your talking mid to low 11's. An LT1 with headers, exhaust, stall, gears, drag radials etc runs low 13's off the gas. You can pick up an LT1 cheap but most of them are higher mileage now.

Z28*****: Yes I have fit the turbo in, it fits, barely but it works. The downpipe is 3in. I'd like to go bigger but lots of clearance issues come into play even on 4th gens.

tamatt27

I got an LT1 with 15K on it. Out of a '96 9C1. If you're on a budget, I think the LT1 is hard to beat. The LS1 is a much better engine, but until costs come down some more, not worth it IMHO.

irocz eric

I just wanna say that i used to read flthirdgen forums ages ago and it was ramairz's car that inspired me to get the ram air hood

ghettosmurf

hey flynlow...didnt u take ur shop to one of like the online dealer sites to do ur swap??? how much did it cost and what did it include, like any aftermarket??

pasky

Think it was $10k....I'll let him chime in for himself. You'll definately save a **** load of money doing it yourself.

ghettosmurf

the thing i see being a problem....that i def. CANT do is all the electrical stuff lol... and see for 10 grand....heck even like 6 grand you know what kinda LT1 i could have IN the car...think bout it...1500 for the motor, then 1500 for head/cam package...then all the bolt ons, then the installation. id be lookin at bout 430-460whp...and its so much easier to put it...thats my issue, cuz i love that LS1 engine, but aftermarket, installation parts, and the plain engine are so much money

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

$10,000 was for much, much more then the LS1 itself...

I thought i mentioned it before, but let's say you are looking to purchase an LS1 w/ T56 transmission, and have functioning A/C. The total install cost will be LESS THAN $8,000.....that includes all the parts.......

I spent $10,000 for Nitrous kit, 4th Gen rear, 4th Gen gas tank, Kenny Brown STB, Spohn SFC all realted install work, custom CAI for the LS1, pair of 16" salad shooters w/ tires, SLP Loudmouth, Custom Exahust......

If you are doing it yourself expect to save about $2,000 in labor

And for reference here is all i got for my swap

1999 Camaro LS1
1999 Camaro T56
1999 Camaro 3.42 Posi Disc rear
4th Gen gas tank
5177 Nitrous Kit w/ dual purge
Spohn SFC
Kenny Brown STB
16" salad shooters w/ tires
Custom Cold air intake w/ K&N
Custom exahust from headers back
SLP Loudmouth
Centerforce Racing Clutch

Basiacally everthing on this page http://www.fbodymotorsports.com/ls1_conversion_parts
Which if my math is right, this stuff ALONE is $1,965

And yes, I had to pay tax on EVERYTHING, so add a 6-7% donation to the State of North Carolina


Sorry for the long post, but it conveys the general cost of WHAT i spent, feel free to cut cornors on various items i added on to the swap......


I'm not going to sit here and try to argue that the LS1 is cheaper and easier to install, because frankly it isn't.........

However i will argue that my car is going to be on the road for the next 4 years at the minimum, and i do cross country traveling (currently in Los Angeles, I live in Miami)

When the decision came down for me to choose between the LT1 and the LS1, every single pro (cost excluded) was leaning towards the LS1....

Just some things for you to think about.........

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

http://www.fbodymotorsports.com/inc/...?v=1&pid=12165

If you notice you'll see the picture showing this product, is one of my car.......

Are you keeping A/C with the car?

pasky

Your way off in pricing there bud. You can get an LS1 with a T-56 coupled to it for far less than $8k, I feel sorry for you if that is what roy charged you. You can usually get them for about 3700-4500 coupled together, including pedals, bellhousing, etc... Sorry but my swap cost me $2200 for the engine and tranny, and about $500 in miscaleanous parts, motor mounts, hydraulic lines, fuels lines, and even a brand new opti spark. Your letting them fool you into thinking you got a good deal.

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

I meant completely installed, Not just the engine/tranny........

Fooled into thinking i got a good deal? I'll break down the parts for you.....

Kenny Brown STB - $135
Spohn SFC - $200
Fbody-LS1 conversion parts - $1,965
LS1/T56 - $3,900
4th Gen rear - $350
Nitrous Kit w/ accessories - $650
SLP loudmouth - $350
=
There's $7,550, just in parts........
+
Tax (6%) = $453
=
$8,003

Add the 2,000 left over for labor and you get the total of $10,000

Now you'll notice that the 4th Gen gas tank isn't included, the tire/wheels were not added in, The cluth wasn't added in, the two front spacers weren't added in........

pasky

Sounds better now, you made it seem like you paid $8k just for an engine and tranny.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, but for the $, the LT1 swap beats an LS1 just about every day of the week, seems to fit better, appears to be easier to work on once installed in the car, has plenty of readily available exhaust systems that will bolt right up, whereas LS1 you get manifolds, or you get to fabbing, LT1 requires less hacking for a/c, theres 1 direct bolt in blower kit, 1 that will work with minor fabrication, a single turbo kit that will fit with vette accessories, and a twin kit that should have no problems fitting the motor as is, let alone the lesser cost to mod it.

HTH

ghettosmurf

yah i live in AZ, i kind of HHAAAVEE to have the A/C...at least without haveing a heat stroke....lol.well lets see, i already have, tires, rims, sfc, panhard rod, eibach pro kit, 2002 WS6 3.42 posi rear, 2.5 al. driveshaft, and i think thats about it. i would just need the actual engine, and tranny, and then of course the install. after this is all done i will get a head/cam package as well...so considering everything i have im proly down to what??? 7k?? maybe, possibly, hopefully...see i need to just go to a junkyard and trick them into selling me one htinking its something else lol for like 2k...that would definetly help..i figure 6k on swapping the LT1, w/all bolt ons and head/cam...get me into low low 12's possibly high 11's...i figure if i get get 7k for LS1...stock will run, w/DR's hopefully high 12's??? since it iwill be much lighter than a 4th gen...you guys are making me think to much...i dont know what to do lol...and i cant really drive my car to NC...well i could theoretically but prefer not to..anyone know of a closer place around here?

RamAirZ

Well here's my price break down

LS1- $2,000 (computer, wiring, manifolds, everything with 12K miles documented)

T56- $1200 (stock tranny with pro 5.0 shifter, stock clutch, hydraulics and pedals)

T76 Turbo Kit- $1,800 (manifold, turbo, all piping, blow-off, wastegate, etc)

LQ4 6.0 liter truck heads- $325 shipped (all aluminum, 215cc intake, 75cc exhaust ports. Better flowbench ratings on low-midrange than LS6 head, same port size as LS6 heads, larger combustion chamber that drops stock compression ratio to 9.4:1)

LS6 intake- $365 brand new at my dealer

I won't get into the rest of the crap but with me doing all my own fabricating and building I save a crap load of money. I figure for under 10G's my car has the Turbo LS1, T56, Spec stage 5 clutch, aluminum driveshaft, 12bolt with 4.10's, and some other odds and ends stuff. Keep an eye out for the good eals, search all the message boards and ebay. Sometimes you run across those can't pass up deals. I got my motor off of camaroz28.com, the turbo kit from a friend in town who used it for 4 months, and the T56 off of camaroz28.com.

If you decide to do an LS1, Street and Performance makes a motor mount adapter kit that allows you to use your stock motor mounts. Makes life MUCH easier than having to weld new mounts in. An aluminum plate bolts to the block in the stock mounting holes and it has 2 studs off of it that allow you to slide your original mount off your old motor onto it then using 1 bolt and 2 nuts you tighten it down. works awesome. Get the Spohn T56 crossmember with torque arm and your swap will be a basic bolt in as far as mounting is concerned.






irocz eric: Thanks man, I don't have that car anymore, I got ran off the road but a 16year old girl running a stop sign. tweaked the frame on a big cement pole. I have the SS hood on my new one though, still black, still t-top. Everyone thought it was the same car haha

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Dal, thanks for the pics of the motor mounts, nice to know they work in a thirdgen with the spohn xmember, as i'd rather not buy the mount kit from thirdgenresource.

They should work great for my 4.8 install.

RamAirZ

No problem man. It was like $85 bucks, or somewhere around there for the plates. I didn't wanna use the thirdgenresource kit either. so easy to install the plates

irocz eric

ya i remember reading about that a long time ago, shortly after u started swapping stuff out of your z28 into your iroc was when i stopped frequenting flthirdgen...

RamAirZ

Well now you should start coming back and checking out the progress lol

Matt_Ky

Hey man, I was just giving you some facts about the LS1 in case you were not aware, ie poorly designed PCV system, piston slap, oil pump failure on pre 2001, etc. If you decide to go the LS1 route, try to get a 2001 or 2002. Oil pump problem corrected, LS6 intake, PCV system improved some (I think), more ponies out of the box.
You said you have not driven an LT1 or LS1, then I would recommend you drive both and make up your own mind. My opinion is just that, an opinion and just one persons opinion. 400 HP is easily attainable with either engine. You should consider other factors ie cost of replacement parts, cost of aftermarket parts, your comfort level on working on the engine you choose, difficulty of the engine swap, etc.
$8k-10K seem high to me. I purchased the 1998 Z in my sig for that kind if money. Having said that, the LS1 was the route I was going to take with my 1991 RS LO3, however, it was totaled 3 days after all the suspension and front brake work.
Other factors played a role in my choice to buy an LS1 Camaro. The 1998 model year had lots of other changes which is why I went with an LS1 Camaro and not the 1997 Z28 LT1 I drove.
I think you would be happy with either engine.
Again, I would recommend test driving both and see which one meets your expectations.

luvrgodd

this was a problem on some 98s and 99s, the ideal LS1 for a swapper to get their hands on is a 01 or 02 LS1. due to the revised egr and ls6 intake.

you couldnt be more wrong boss... that car with stall gears DR's and exhaust is easy a 12.7ish car.

irocz eric

forgot my pw and when i do the 'forgot pw' thing, it doesn't send the new pw to my email

Matt_Ky

[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvrgodd
[B]this was a problem on some 98s and 99s, the ideal LS1 for a swapper to get their hands on is a 01 or 02 LS1. due to the revised egr and ls6 intake.


Not true. Go to LS1.com and LS1tech.com and see the problems owners are having with 2001 and 2002 LS1's. Having said that, the 2001 and 2002 LS1 is the year to get if you can.

Matt_Ky

[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvrgodd
[B]this was a problem on some 98s and 99s, the ideal LS1 for a swapper to get their hands on is a 01 or 02 LS1. due to the revised egr and ls6 intake.


Not true. Check out LS1.com and LS1 tech.com and read the posts by 2001 and 2002 owners and the problems they are having. Revised EGR and LS6 intake on the 2001 and 2002 is the year to get if you can but they are not problem free either. Only the oil pump issue resolved.

luvrgodd

ive been to ls1.com and ls1tech.com many times, im a member at both sites and it seems the majority of factory failures come from 98/99 ls1s