Larry Dunlap

I want to buy a home welding machine and learn how to weld. I really know very little. Would a unit like this be adequate?

eBay: HOBART HANDLER 140 MIG WELDER NEW WITH CART 500505 (item 130016334790 end time Aug-18-06 17:00:39 PDT)

Which is better MIG or TIG. Seems like the MIG continuous feed would be better and easier but the TIG welders seem to be more expensive.

Also what size, amps, do I need? I have a 220V outlet in my garage I could use, so either 110 or 220 would be OK.

I want to do stuff like weld in SFCs or relocation brackets, do exaust work etc. Any guidance would be appreciated

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

TIG is wayyy more cash, and harder to do in the beginning. You can do nicer looking welds with tig in the end though.

I'd just grind and paint your welds and forget about it.

Mig is much easier to learn/do, and very versatile. You can use flux core if you want, you can put in aluminum wire if you want, etc etc.
220V? That's an excellent position to be in. The Lincoln, 220V wire feed is a good one, I forget the P/N off the top of my head. Realistically, you'll probably never weld thicker than 1/4" steel, so remember that. The nice thing about the 220V one is you *can* jack up the current if need be, and the duty cycle is higher.

oh yea, and both mig/TIG can do thin stuff like body work, stick you can't do that. Also mig is NHRA legal, so i've heard, as far as rollcage, etc.

that hobart would work well, the dual reels is a handy setup, you can have thin wire for body work, flip a switch and use the thicker wire for the SFC's. Without having to tear out the whole roll, ugh!
if you can afford it though, i'd step up to a 220V. Make sure it can do flux core (should be able to), as well as gas assisted, dual feeds is handy too.
oh, one last thing on your shopping list:

thick welding gloves
$$auto dimming helmet$$.... makes welding A LOT EASIER, especially the learning curve.
and all the other odds and ends, like MIG pliers, and some magnetic brackets, clamps, copper spoons, bla bla bla...

F-BIRD'88

Get a Miller 175 mig. It will out-live you and do everything you will ever do.

laiky

i agree a 175 class machine from miller or lincoln. i have a millermatic 175, its a great unit. Some prefer the arc of the red machines, you can't go wrong with either. Get a bottle of c25 (argon/CO2) and i reccomend a good auto dark helmet like a miller xlix or bwe if you have the cash.

Before you jump in check out millermotorsports.com, do a search, and if you have any questions the experts there will help.

I have purchased from cyberweld.com in the past and i am very satisfied with their service.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Well, real world I’d choose a 135/140 vs a 175/180 machine based on what’s more convenient for you. I have a 110V machine and although it works fine I would prefer a 220V just because I have a higher amp 220V circuit in my garage (I actually split the 220V circuit to get a high amp 110V circuit to run the welder, a normal 15A circuit will blow when you’re running fast and hot, highest power setting, fast wire feed, with a 110V welder). OTOH, you can take and use a 110V welder anyplace you have a 110V outlet, which is just about everywhere.

People make a big deal about the 220 machine being able to weld heavier stuff but real world you won’t see the difference, actually, if you look at the power output curves you’ll find that in most few of the cases the voltage output is the same at the top settings and that the only difference is duty cycle (in the case of the Hobart the lowest setting is actually lower also), and having used all of them heavily I’ve honestly never had one hold me up with duty cycle (I’ve never even seen what the thermal cutoff is like, and I’ve done a lot of welding especially with the little Hobart that I own and a friend’s Lincoln SP135).

WRT to the actual welding capacity, remember that they are rated for a single pass, straight bead weld. You CAN weld much heavier pieces with a weave or multiple passes, and it is an acceptable way of getting a proper weld (as a test at one point we did destructive testing on the Hobart weld forums welding 1/2” plate with my little 110v handler 135 vs a Miller 251, and yes, the 251 was able to do it faster, but once ground and tested the 2 pieces were indistinguishable WRT to strength.

To give you some ideas, this is roughly ½” plate to just about ¼” wall DOM (I think it’s 4130, it was cut out of a roll cage, but I never checked) done with my handler 135:


Same machine, ½” plate to SCH80 heavy wall pipe (and yes, it holds up to the big 20 ton press fine, I’ve bent as thick as ½” aluminum and 5/16” thick steel with that press brake, that’s a lot of force):


This was actually flux core with a Lincoln SP135, welding roughly ½” wall cast iron to 5/16” steel plate:


These are all single pass but done with a weave, and you can see that they got hot enough to really sink the weld into the base metal.

To save myself some typing, check out my post towards the end of this thread that I wrote last night:
LS1TECH - Best welder for <$500

laiky

83-

i have had the exact opposite experience you have had with 110 volt welders. Those are some pretty beads though. I have used 110 volt lincoln machines and have repeatedly hit the duty cycle. penetration has also been a big factor . I find it hard to believe that a 110 machine got good penetration welding 1/2 " cast iron to 5/16 plate?? The heat required isn't available with a 110. Although my experiences seem to contradict yours, your work looks really good. Who do you post as on the Hobart boards??

Randy82WS7

good thread i love it

i have two questions real quick

how do you split the 220 for a 110 welder, please explain

and when do you need to use flux core

layman's terms please lol

and how much does a lincoln or millermatic 175 go for typically, retail

and a tank/bottle of the gas ?

what kind and size of bottle/tank ?

thanks!

laiky

220 is just 2 110 legs. usually when you run a 220 line for a dryer or welder it is with heavier wire for higher current draw. In that case using one of the 110 legs for a 110 welder you CAN have a higher amp 110 circuit. But it all depends on the wire you use and the breaker you use.

flux cored is typically used where the work is out doors (sheilding gas blows away), dirty (you should always try to clean it but sometimes its not possible) or when trying to get the most penetration on a lower powered welder as fluxcored runs a little hotter.

The MM175 is about 800 bucks from cyberweld.com

I get an 80 cf tank for around 120 bucks and refills are about 30. the bigger the tank the less per CF the refills are.

The most used gas, and the only one you will use with a 110 or mm175 is called c25, 75% argon 25% CO2.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

what were you doing when you hit duty cycle? Which 110V Lincoln?

OK, even with a very serious welder, if you want full penetration on thicker stuff you need to V notch the weld and/or leave a gap, otherwise you will not get full penetration. The general rule of thumb is anything thicker then about 1/8”. In the case of that cast piece to the steel piece I did some of both, unfortunately I don’t have a picture of the back side because if you look I didn’t weld it all the way around on the outside, to leave room for the hardware, but instead I ran a continuous bead around the inside to seal it off and also to smooth things out (also to give room to grind, that is a threaded cast pipe elbow that was welded to the outlet of a cast manifold to get around an upper control arm, one of those things that happen when you wedge a 500caddie into a midsize car).

Again, considering the flux core sludge plus not really taking the time to properly clean/grind the weld area and the fact that I was more conserned with keeping the flange flat and making sure that the casting didn’t crack, I’m quite happy with how it turned out.

I post as Silverback almost everywhere else… I would love to change my name here and keep my current account since I no longer have the 83 and then people would recognize me everywhere. I use my own little JYTurboDog Avitar (which is original artwork copyrighted for something else so it shouldn’t be showing up anywhere else) most places also so people usually figure it out quick enough.

Basically what he said. 220 is 2 hot leads, a neutral and a ground if 4 conductor, no neutral if 3 conductor (the neutral and ground connect to the same place inside the breaker box but technically are supposed to remain separate at the outlet), and a 110 is one leg of the incoming power, in other words, one hot lead, a neutral (the other “spade” part of the plug) and a ground. If you take your 220V outlet and connect between one of the hot leads and the neutral or the ground you get 110VAC (if you started with 4 conductors and still have a proper, separate neutral and ground then perfect, if you started with 3 conductors then you won’t have a proper separate neutral and ground, it will work but won’t be to code and I wouldn’t hard wire anything like that). Try it with a volt meter and your drier socket… just don’t do anything stupid or you didn’t get the idea from me…

Most people try to avoid using it ever because of the slag that covers the weld to shield it and they don’t like the extra smoke. Most production/assembly line welding does use some kind of flux core. I in general really kind of like it for lots of things. In general I suggest that people keep some around so they can finish whatever they’re doing if they run out of shielding gas or if they have to weld something outside or upside down where it would normally be difficult to keep the shielding gas around the weld. I'd suggest that for anything where strength is an issue or that you're goign to do multiple passes on, to stay away from flux core with a -GS suffex, it's designed for easy homeowner use, not for strength or quality

That’s a regional thing, price and size wise. In most cases they will try lease you a bottle on a yearly basis. Unless you’re doing daily production work that will end up being much more expensive then owning one since if you’re careful you the average home guy can use the same bottle for years, I think I had my first 80cf bottle for like 3 or 4 years before I used it up even doing a lot of welding. That being the case I’d suggest for most people to just buy the biggest bottle that is legal in your area (around here it’s an 80cu/ft), since as bottle sizes go up refill prices only go up slightly (like I thin that the last time I got my 80 refilled (realy just exchanged) I got it for $45 and to refill a 40 would have been something like $42). The reason it makes sense to lease if you’re doing a lot of work is that they pretty much keep the bottle full with whatever gas you want/need for minimal extra charge, which is nice when you go through a lot of gas, but really nice if suddenly you decide you want to run tri mix or something, they’ll just swap out for you.

laiky

It's good to see someone getting results with a 110. The units i have used are i think the first sears wirefeed/mig unit ( a gift i long hoped for then regretted there after) it had only 30 amp and 70 amp taps!!! i did successfully weld the cat adapters for my banks powerpac camaro exhaust with it (the only successful welding i did with it) then years later a friends red weldpac (home depot) 110. thats the one that kept hitting its duty cycle welding 14 gauge square tubing (motorcycle stand). I got hold of a 220 red hd weldpac after that and did lots of nice jobs for my employer with it. even alluminum. never hit duty cycle and was very inpressed with the quality of welds i could produce with it using flux cored (usually .045). When my steering box ripped the chassis apart on my camaro i decided to get a "keeper" it was a tossup between the red and blue 220 volt, blue was 100 bucks cheaper with infinately variable voltage control. Then a newer sears 110 mig unit that a friend bought on clearance for 85 bucks ( it sells for 500 normally) i used it once or twice and can say its the best 85 dollar welder i have ever used, but my mm175 just makes it feel like junk. Interestingly my friend with the 110 lincoln was recently trying to weld a lathe bench out of .125 square tube and couldn't get the unit to get any real penetration, the welds were all cold (mig not flux) and the beads all stood up instead of flowing out. I brought my 175 over and he was ecstatic that it worked so well, he was relieved that he actually could weld.

Those experiences are why i don't recommend 110 units when a 220 is an option. that said i hear the hh140 is about the best 110 unit around and quite affordable. I wouldn't mind a 110 for tack jobs that i can fit and bring back for welding. I find myself regretting not getting an mm210 or even a 251 so i can spray arc and do alluminum easily. Next one will be a 251, maybe even a 350p if i can swing it but thats a ways off.

KagA152

iTrader: (5)

i got a used millermatic 135 with cart and bottle for $450. all the guy used it for was welding sfc, it was practically new. its a nice little piece. i havent welded anything over 1/4, but it didnt have a problem

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You know, as far as the small linclon’s go I actually prefer the weldpacks to the more expensive SP’s and similar welders, I think they’re a better value for your $.

Well, I hate to say it but I would probably argue that he probably can’t weld very well, and then you brought over a better machine and set it to some known good settings and all he did was pulled the trigger and stuck some metal together.

I have to admit that I’ve never had a problem getting even junk, no name and HF welders to lay down a decent bead once I sat down and took the time to learn how to really mig weld correctly, so I’m probably not representative of what someone that just picks up the gun will get. Some of the machines like the MM350 will practically lay down a bead for you if you can just learn to set them correctly, and admittedly as you go up in their product line they are more and more like that. Well, I did spend 2 days fighting a Lincoln SP135 at one point that just wouldn’t feed wire right which caused it to have a tendency to either burn through or lay down a big glob (it took me most of that 2 days of swearing at it, finally cleaning it out and finding some combination of washers and other BS to make the wire feed feed evenly).

Having used most of the machines in this class I’m really happy with my HH135 (the old version of the 140, the 140 is just better in a few ways), and I would argue that it is the best 110v welder for the money, and the 180 is the best entry level 220V welder, hands down (and I’m generally a miller guy so that says something). I honestly don’t think that the small linclons are any better then the other assorted stuff out there (like the HF Chicago electric welders, sears welders…) and don’t think they would sell any if it wasn’t for the fact that they’re at every home center and their industrial reputation, and the millers are high quality but somewhat confusing for a newby to learn on (and the parts that are confusing don’t give you anything extra once you do learn) so I don’t generally think they’re worth the extra $100 that they typically run over comparable welders.

As far as spray arc, from what I’ve seen the mm210 is just about boarderline for sprayarc and the 251 is a much better choice. I would love something like a 251 some day, after a tig and some machine tools (I’m not sure that I’d get rid of my little 135 for small stuff and I don’t think I could justify anything bigger then a 251 if I’m being realistic)

84ZMIKE

Well Larry did you get a welder yet?...if so what did ya get.
Mike

Comp788

For starters I am no expert but I work with some great welders and know quite a bit about welding. I have used almost off of the different brands of machines in our shop and how the machine is set us usually the issue with a weld qualtity.

I think when it comes down to it every welder has a machine that he likes. I work at a manufacturing company. We have 22 welders and over 50 welding machines. Each welder likes something different. We do not have any Hobart welders at work. I am not saying they are good welders as one of my friends has a touch start 110 tig machine and for the money it is a great machine.

In my opinion, if you have the money and the power for a 220v machine it is an easy decision. Get a 220v machine. You can always turn the machine down and weld the thin stuff with a bigger machine. I have welded 20 ga material with my Miller 251 mig machine and it weld beautiful. Plus when it come time to do a bigger job and weld something thich you have the resource to do so. For 99% of weling in a car a 110v welder will do. Using gas is the only way to go. The technology is advancing so for gas. Be sure to read about current technology to see what is right for your application. The days of 75% / 25% days are almost over. But for 95% of welding that works great. Use can use gas out doors easy, you just turn up the gas flow or pressure. I can't remember who said that most manufacturing companies use flux core wire.. I've been to a lot of manufacturing companies and I have never seen it used in production. Most of the time I see Iron Workers using flux core wire as well as quite a few fence builders.

While you can weld thicker then 1/4 material with a 110v welder. The welders are not rated for more then that. To weld 1/4" with a 110v welder usually it has to be done with flux core wire. (again read the welders instructions) When I have been in a pinch at a friends house and had to weld thick material with a 110v welder, usually I preheat the metal just as you would do if your going to weld cast iron.

We have a robot at work and it uses a Stargon gas and a .045 mig wire. The robot at work runs about 6 hours a day of actual weld time. The employee is at the mechine for 8 hours but there is the loading and unloading of the machine to factor in.

For me I like my Lincon Tig welder but for mig machines I like my Miller. I have three welders at my shop (not work) a Miller Millermatic 135 110v machine, a Millermatic 251 220v and I HATE flux core wire. It makes a mess and lots of clean up to do after the welding. For my tig machine I have a Lincoln Precision TIG 275. I do quite a bit of welding so having the various machines comes in handy..

Someone made the comment on what is legal for NHRA. What is legal depends on what material and where. This is a complex issue and almost deserves it own thread. But in short. Mig is acceptable on mild steel cars. Tig can be used on mild steel and is also legal. When it comes to 4130 tubing or usually called chromolly (actual name is chromium-molybdenum) it must be tig welded. There are a couple of exceptions in the NHRA rule book and the SFI chassis specification books but those are very rare exceptions. The best way to look at is mild steel can be mig to tig and 4130 must be tig.

crazycrocket

I bought a millermatic 175. I love it sure I had to make my own extension cord from the dryer plug in in the house but the 220 is nice to have. So nice in fact I can clamp together two pieces of metal and make a spot weld if I wish. I mean you can do this with a 110 unit but I tripped the braker alot on my buddies 110 unit and that was just welding sheet metal. Seemed to depend on the day.

In any case whatever you buy try and talk them down at air liquide here in alberta I was able to talk the guy down to like 960 bucks cdn for my welder then i got a bottle and asked him about throwing in a fill and he did. I eneded up getting the welder a bottle and gas for under 1300 cdn. I don't think thats too bad considering the price of the welder was 1100 to begin with and I went for the larger bottle. Needless to say when i need supplies I will buy it from that store if I can.

Anniversary-Z-man

iTrader: (2)

Thanks to the recommendations here I just picked up a Miller 135....I've never welded anything before I bought this. I've been wanting to take a class for like 5 years now, but that hasn't happened, so I figured I'd just buy a decent Mig welder and go at it....I still need LOTS of practice to get a nice bead, but I'm glad I've got it here...I've already used it to adapt my seat brackets to some new seats.
Thanks for the info!

-Joel

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Partially true… for a long time with the handers the biggest difference between the 110 and 220V machines were the duty cycle at max output and that the low tap on the 220 machine was actually lower then the low tap on the 110V version. On a machine like your 251, last I checked they will not go as low as a handler or say a miller 135 or 175…

Again, those are single pass, no weave ratings. I wouldn’t try to weld anything thicker then 1/8” with _any_ mig that I intended to get complete penetration on without either beveling the joint or leaving a gap. In most cases at the big end of things the difference between doing it with say a MM 251 and a little 135 machine is how fast you can run the bead. If it’s not a production situation, where speed isn’t really an issue then once you get the joint properly prepped you can get anything done with the little 110V welder that you can with a BIG MIG.

The biggest thing that you can do to go from “sticking metal together” to running nice beads is to figure out how to keep your gun steady and see what you’re doing. If you have to, when you’re just starting use both hands to guide the gun and get your helmet in there so you can see what you’re doing, hell, for critical stuff I still use 2 hands if I have the option.