tylersb350

well i finaly decided to put my car away for the winter about 3-4 weeks ago. ive been very busy on it. i have the motor and trans out. i stripped the entire engine compartment down to bare metal and sprayed it with self etching primer. will be painted gloss black when spring comes around. i have been finishing the last bit of minor body work (prepping for paint in the spring....Hugger Orange) i removed the sway bars, the steering brace, the brackets that hold the steering compenents in place and some various other brackets and sandblasted them. my dad is a plant supervisor and they have a powdercoating system at his work so i will be getting everything that i sandblasted powder coated high gloss black for free. i also built my own sfc's (vert spohn style) and a new torque arm. i made a cross member to go between my sfc's that the TA bolts to (its adjustable). the only bad news about this is that i dont have any pics yet, my camera is on the charger so i can get pics up tomorrow.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

this thread is worthless without pics

tylersb350

here are some pics.




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more pics

tylersb350

more

tylersb350

tylersb350

ttt

AlkyIROC

You did a TTT after an hour? You after some sort of special attention?? We'll all see it as a new post no matter when you post it. If it gets no responses, we're not interested.

What size material did you use to make that torque arm. It's looks huge and thin. 1" - 1-1/4" x .125" should be more than enough although .180" wall would be better.

Although you gave it some adjustment points at the front, there should be an adjuster at the back so that you can adjust the pinion angle.

The torque arm also needs some sort of slip joint so that the rear suspension doesn't bind as the axle moves up and down. It can't be solidly mounted like that. The axle pivots on the LCA, not the torque arm.

I'd ditch that home made torque arm system and buy a proper aftermarket one.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

i do applaud the creativity, though i agree with steve, the torque arm needs a slid joint on the front or a place for it to pivot back and forth or the suspension will bind really bad. There should be an adjuster on the rear too for pinion angle adjustment.

Please tell me you didnt use galvanized water pipe, its made from a rather soft metal and bends really easily.

DPSJosh

X3

You need a slip joint on the rear so it doesn't try to move the rearend when the suspension moves.

If it's galvanized pipe, he probably won't post an update because he is dead...

tylersb350

the torque arm material is 1.25 x .125 wall hot roll steel. i will modify the front so i can get a slide joint in there some how.

Wrenchp

Looks like you put some thought into it but they are right. You need to just recreate that torque arm with something more rigid. All you need to do is to make some shackles to the front mount on the torque arm and add a joint in the back to adjust the pinion. The adjustment isn't necessary it will improve your e.t.s by traction. Good ideas, you just need a little work of them!

tylersb350

thanks for the advice. ive been staring at the pic of the front mount to try and figure out how to modify it, and what first came to mind was the shackel idea. that is an easy fix. but how would i incorperate a joint at the back of the torque arm without too much hacking at what i already have?

jerryd87

iTrader: (2)

you should probably just restart on it im going to build myself one out of 1/2 in blackpipe that should be strong enough(if its not someone let me know before i start). im going to use a bunch of 5/8 heim joints and grind the threads off so it will go into the pipe at the front and top rear and then weld around where it fits into the pipe then drill some holes and also spot weld them in. for the pinion angle i got 5/8 rod that im also going to grind down some and do the same but leave several inchs out and use tie rod adjusters(the machined hex stock ones) and a left hand thread 5/8 heim joint. for the front pivot you can make a couple oval pieces of steel with a hole in the top and botton and use one last heim joint welded into the top of the crossmember and then bolt the botton holes to that and the top holes to the torque arm. you can try something different but this is my idea(if anyone sees something dangerous let me know please lol)

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

thast as far as i got, no way 1/2" black pipe will be strong enough, i would opt for something other than pipe anyway.

3/4" rod ends are the standard for this stpy of part/load

tylersb350

, that 1/2 will deff not be strong enough. i posted that mine was made out of 1 1/4 but i was wrong. it is 1 5/16

i think i figured out a way to fix my problem fairly easily. im going to mount some type of spherical rubber bushing (some what like a sway bar bushing) on the end of the t/a then mount it to a slider bar on that cross-member so i can get a couple degrees of pinion angle adjustment. that way it isnt rigid mounted at the front and the back and the suspension wont bind. let me know what you think. thanks

Wrenchp

I would make sure that I was using tubing not pipe of any kind. Pipe is cast and is way to flexible. Make sure it is tubing of some sort. Square tubing or round tubing will work. another thing is like someone said above .125 or 1/8" thick is all you need. (that goes for SFC too!). Beside the structural integrity of pipe, it weighs a lot more than tubing!

All I did with my torque arm is use the stock piece and cut off the end and replaced it with a bushing off a control arm of an 02' Monte Carlo (lol just something I had laying around). Then I made a cross member to the car to hole the trans and torque arm in the same cross pipe.

I plan to make the sfc part of the trans cross member. The pinion angle stayed about the same because I used the stock torque arm.

AlkyIROC

1-5/16? That's not a standard size.

Black pipe is soft and not as strong as proper DOM tubing.

Some heavy wall 1" DOM minimum tubing should be used. I can't remember what the wall thickness is to allow the inside to be tapped for 3/4" rod ends. Probably around 1/8" thick.

The Spohn torque arm has gone from a slip joint to a shackle design but it's not height adjustable. The front mount is moved off the back of the transmission and moved onto the tranny crossmember. It also incorporates a driveshaft loop. There's an adjuster at the rear with LH and RH threads to allow pinion angle changes.

tylersb350

yeah im starting to like the shackle idea a little bit better than the bushing.

igotta355z28

iTrader: (1)

LMAO ahh takes me back....i had to weld some galvanized tracks together once, i uses a tig welder turned that **** up struck an arc backed off and went back and forth for a cppl seconds burning away the coating all while holding my breath trying not to breathe those good ole yellow fumes lol...then i just sharpened my tungstun and welded it together like mild steel...i still got sick as a dog had to down some milk and boy do i hate milk....

jerryd87

iTrader: (2)

im not sure on all pipe but the black pipe i have is deffinatly not cast(i know the stuff in my basement plumbing is) but this stuff i got at the home depot(it was listed as black pipe lol) and you can see the weld going down the entire side and inside diameter is 1/2 in. outside is 3/4 in.(in case anyone is thinking i meant 1/2 in outside) idk mayby they have it listed wrong?
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lol you know napa sells respirators for like 30 bucks right? pain in the butt to weld with one on under the mask but well worth it
BTW dont mean to jack the thread but since ones already started on torque arms 2 people might as well get help, and finally to the original poster, mayby if you go with the shackle idea you could make a slightly longer one with several holes to adjust the height at the front? mayby lower the crossmember some and make a taller shackle should give you quite a bit of adjustability. the shackle seems to be the best bet although i personaly will use rod ends instead of bushings becuase i seem to have bad luck with bushings(me and several people i work with keep bending things pressing in bushings so i gave up *shrug*
just found out what i have i guess its not "black pipe" but rather "black steel" cant find out anything about specs for flexability or anything just know that on a 5 foot piece on 2 bricks i can stand on it(im 180lbs) and bounce and it dosnt flex

JeremyNYR

iTrader: (2)

Oh it certainly does deflect, just maybe not very much. Sorry, it's the engineer coming out in me. You probably wouldn't perceive anything under a half inch of deflection anyway while standing in it. You're also halfing the moment arm that it will actually experience by standing in the middle, and you're supporting it on both ends... so you're more closely simulating loading one end with 45 pounds. I realize that's likely not entirely accurate and oversimplified, but the point is that you aren't simulating anywhere near 180 lbs of force the way it would be loaded in use.

jerryd87

iTrader: (2)

No offense but i beg to differ, bouncing or jumping on something produces a momentary shock the will far exceed the inital weight.(Depending on how high and how hard you push down when relanding its force could equal 8 times or more the static weight.) Its simply physics, force=wieght x speed squared,(Sorry not sure how to put a little 2 above speed lol.) if standing still the force simply standing on it would be 180 lbs in the center.(The bricks would be like people holding it up and i would be a weight, since im centered or pretty close to it the weight on each end is 90lbs, but the highest stress point is in the center where im located so that is the full 180lbs.) the higher i jump the more speed im gaining and exerting more force.(i was only bouncing about 2 in off it but thats enough to quadruple the the force being exerted since 1 unit of speed would be standing still hence static.) Now when i push down with my feet im adding weight because im exerting extra force to lift myself. Now physics say that every force must be met with an equal and opposite reaction, therefore i weigh 180lbs so it takes 180lbs to lift myself, so 180+180(Static and whats required to lift myself off the pipe becuase that force is applyed pushing down so that my body can push up) is 360 pounds. So 360*2 squared= 360*4= 1440 lbs of force on one point, now that dosnt even take into account the weight at the center of the bar of the bar itself, i cant do that since i dont have its weight with me, but that will add static force as well. Its very easy to detect 1/2 in of deflection, you can look and see that movement standing on an object, now under a 1/4 in mayby not so much but 1/2in? That is a large amount, if someone cant feel or see that then something is seriously wrong.(Or mayby your saying i have super good senses? Although i highly doubt thats the case.) Now take into account that the object will be a triangle shape(Mine will merge much closer to the front.) and you can triple or quadruple the strength, due to the fact that triangles are a very ridged structural piece, they are the most ridged geometrical shape.(Ever seen a bridge? They are just a bunch of triangles for all the structural parts.) Not to mention(I forgot to mention this which is my bad sorry.) but my torque arm is going to be approx. half the length of the stock one so i need less strength. Im mounting it to my driveshaft loop(Going to be 1in by 3in rectangle tubing 1/8 in thick.) which will be mayby a foot from the end of the trans tunnel mayby a little more. The entire loop or top side i should say will be welded to the floorboard, and on the opposite side of the the floorboard, right above the loop, my downbars for my cage will be welded. So when the torque arm lifts up it will lift up on the entire car and distribute the force. Not trying to insult anyone so please dont take it that way. I also happen to know the tubing mill i used to work at we did these same tests(Although with machines that automatically did the calcs.) im just not familar with metalurgy.(I guess what i really need to know was just the elasticity of the metal but i cant seem to find that anywhere.) Also how much force is actually being generated at the rear. Im not quite sure how much torque is being generated by the rear end housing itself trying to turn.
Btw been looking it up and from what i can gather dom tubing is just mild seamless steel tubing, and just as soft as cast iron just not as brittle and easyer to weld. Which soft and flexible is better then hard and brittle so it dosnt crack or shatter. Like i said i guess i just need the elasticity rating for black steel, so i can make sure it will spring back like i need it to when it does flex slightly, and the torque of the housing trying to turn. If i need to i suppose i could always heat it all up when done and oil bath it to increase the strength a little

AlkyIROC

That's hard to read. Use capitalization and make paragraphs when you write a book.

Wrenchp

Well that is tubing not pipe. Pipe is cast. Tubing is welded. It should work great for a torque arm.

AlkyIROC

Tubing is measured by the outside diameter. Pipe is measured by the inside diameter. How each is made varies.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

that yellow smoke/fumes will kill you if you expose yourself to it often. NEVER weld galvanized without the proper respirator. Its not worth your well-being/life

Samdweezel05

iTrader: (1)

I'm in trouble. I like the little white feather like things the float around. There's nothing better than that sweet taste you get in the back of your throat.

Phil

tylersb350

Wrenchp

double x heavy pipe is measured by OD. At least that is what we used when I was pipe fitting. We would use the same take off measurements for 2" xH pipe as the 1 1/2" xxH pipe.

Tubing is generally more rigid because it is cold rolled. Just like the difference in an oxygen bottle versus an Acetylene bottle. The Acetylene bottle is welded together in pieces because it doesn't need to hold near as much pleasure inside as the oxygen bottle does. The weld in tubing is vertical and makes it rigid up and down, which is where the load should be placed on it. Pipe needs to conceal pressure inside that is why it starts as sticks of metal and gets cut in the center or cast. That is the difference.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

nope, Stephen is right. Water-pipe, electrical conduit, drain pipe ect, is all measured by the ID not OD.
heavy wall steel pipe, sch80, has the same exact outside measurement as standard sch40, the inside changes a little but that does not affect the nominal measurement.

Wrenchp

You just said that they are measured by ID then proceeded to tell me that the different thickness but of the same measured size, sch 40 and sch 80, measure the same outside and the inside change.... The outside changes and the whole in the middle is tooled to a specification for the schedule. On 2" sch80 pipe the inside dimension is 2", the outside is 2 3/8". On xxh or sch160 or so the ID is 1 1/2" and the outside is 2 3/8". On the schematics on the units I build for work the 1 1/2" xxh pipe was labeled 2". I work for J.W. Williams, part of the Flint corp. You are telling me that the engeneers are wrong?

After pipe gets so big or so heavy it is measured by OD. That is all there is to it. The difference is how it is made.

The thing I was getting at is that pipe is used for internal pressure, tubing is for structural rigidity. That is why tubing is cold rolled and pipe is either tooled from the inside or cast. You don't use a forged piston becase it is measured differently than a cast peice? You use a forged piston because it is stronger!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

All pipe is measured in nominal diameter. It's loosely related to ID, but depending on schedule thickness, it may or may not be that close.
It's an archaic system, like furlongs per fortnight. It's a stupid system that is waiting for it's turn to DIE OFF.

Anyway, pipe is not held to a close tolerance for ID or OD, since it's just used to carry a fluid. It's not a structural item.

You have tubing to carry fluids as well, then STRUCTURAL TUBING to carry weight/loads. It has a thicker wall, and is made to a tighter tolerance.

Tubing is either hot extruded, or welded.

Engineers are wrong all the time! hahaha, everyone is human, that title does lead to a god complex however...


Forged pistons are a whole 'nuther ball game, and aren't really comparable to why we use tube, and not pipe when fabricating load bearing devices

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

sch160 is heavy azz pipe, i have never dealt with it so i cant comment.


pipe size is still just a nominal measurement, to be technical

steel rigid conduit/rigid steel water pipe/ PVC pipe sch40 ID dimensions are
1 1/2" pipe, has an inside diameter of 1.624"
2" pipe has a ID of 2.083

sch 80 on the otherhand, has the same exact outside dimension, uses the same threads and fittings, yet the ID changes

1 1/2 pipe has an ID of 1.476
2 pipe ID is 1.913

i dont have any info on sch160, but assuming its double sch80, the ID would be

1 1/2 pipe ID should be 1.18
2 pipe ID should be 1.573

Like i said first in this post, there may applications where there is an exception to this rule, but 99+% of the time, this is how it is.

if the ID of the pipe you are using is 1 1/2", and has the outside diameter of 2 3/8, its still considered 2" pipe.

and yes, engineers are wrong all the time. That is why it is up to the contractor/end user/ect to verify all dimensions before starting the work.

I think thats all of it.

jfg455

People please!! Why the hell are you all arguing about water pipe and id VS od measuring of materials that should NEVER be used to make a torque arm! This isn't junk yard wars! If you don't know what you are doing then don't make suspension pieces because I might be in the other lane at the track! Take the time wasted figuring it all out, work those hours and take the damn money and buy a built piece! it will be way better in the end!!
And stop arguing about water pipe!! oh my head hurts....... Boards! (shake head and sigh)....

Wrenchp

The piston example was used just to make a point. It is the exact same concept as using tubing rather than pipe! Forged pistons were built to hold up to power better. Tubing is made to hold structural components. It is the same concept; USE MATERIALS FOR WHAT THEY ARE MEANT TO BE USED AS!

jerryd87

iTrader: (2)

Well some of us can work all the hours we want(in my case im salery i get paid the same no matter what.) and cant buy the "built" items. $500 for a torque arm? Please thats retarded i can buy a 4 link for $200, some of us have more time then money and cant just go out and buy the best of everything. Not to mention those "built" items where created doing what we are doing now, a bunch of people talking about it and see what works and what dosnt. Those items are also overkill 5 times over so the company dosnt have a problem with them, but if it wasnt for people like us other people wouldnt be able to buy those "built" items and the world of hot rodding wouldnt exsist. Is my item going to be better then a spohn item? I highly doubt it, is it going to be good enough for my use? My manager launched his car on a stock torque arm and bracket and forgot to put the claim shell back in(he runs a 12.5 car) it dint even bother it till he made it back into the pits and put the car in reverse. The only thing that happened then was it fell out of the front mount. Bottom line is troll else where and quit trying to cause trouble in a constructive conversation.

Wrenchp

IMO, anyone can buy something and go fast. Few can actually fabricate something to go fast.

The fact of it is that I really enjoy going out and being presented with challenges and overcoming them.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

im not cure why we got on the tangent of water pipe, and nobody here every said it was being using on the car or that it should ever be, its just slarifying info that got posted, and some people might see it as some interesting reads.

jfg455

For one thing I am a working stiff just like the rest of the 97% of the population and can't buy "the best " of everything. Case in point I tried building my own upper control arms for my chevelle. Guess what, I had $500 in time materials and R&D into one arm. Is that better than spending the $450 to buy a pair already done? no. Fab stuff that no one makes that is hot rodding. That and use what you have. A plated stock torque arm with a new front mount onthe tranny cross member is good into the 11's.

Again s**t luck doesn't prove anything

I would say the same to the people who went off topic and started discussing water pipe in a torque arm post. Just my opinion.

jfg455

IMO most people go out and spend money and don't go fast. How many 20, 30 or $50K cars do you see that can't get out of thier own way? Then there is the one in a hundred guy that is spanking everyone with minimal parts. He has his car and combo figured out. I like building wierd and odd stuff but at the same time I am not trying to reinvent the wheel. It is round and proven to work so why would I waste my time trying to make an exact copy? Just my thoughts.

jerryd87

iTrader: (2)

Now i cant speak for other people but what i personally am doing i cannot buy, my torque arm is going to be approz. half the length of a stock one. why? Due to the fact i want my torque arm to lift on the roll cage so the load is distributed instead of just the tranny crossmember. Mine will be bolted to my driveshaft loop which will be directly under where the downbars for my center hoop will be welded.
You really cant put a price on time and r&d since its subjective to each person some people believe there time is worth more then others do. Thats why when i quote what i have invested i only quote actual money invested. especially since i have more time then money. Frankly if you spend $500 in materials then eather i really dont want to live where you do, should spend a little more time researching, or someone really boned you. The only thing im making or have made that its cheaper to buy then make,with exceptions like springs,shocks, engine components, exc., is my roll cage becuase i dont have a tubing bender.

Wrenchp

Another thing that a person has to cosider is that not only do you have your labor involved but learning to build something "one off" is priceless. The nice thing about fabrication is that you mess up. That means that you learn from your mistakes and try again. You can only get better at it, the more you do the better you will be. Like I said before I am addicted to challenge! lol

Feroluce

lop about 2" of thr
e end of the torque arm and install a hiem joint kit, cause as soon as that rear pivots on a horazontal axis it will snap that bolt and pole vault you down the road

Feroluce

its not always easy to find what you want but if you know how to make it work or adapt other tech to what you want it can be better, i can make a custom torque arn for less than $100.00 using dom tubing, cause i looked for the better deal and leared from my DIRT racing how to find them

tylersb350

then would i have to use some type of shackle to allow it to pivot in a horizontal motion??

Feroluce

that is one way to do it the other is to run hiem joints all around, i had a similar rig on an 86 rs used for circle track racing. also does your driveshaft clear the torque arm mout. its hard to tell in the pictures

tylersb350

yes the driveshaft clears.