crazyokie

HI All,
I guess i should start with giving some background as I am pretty new around here. I used to have an 88 iroc a few years ago that had the louvers ripped off during t-storm season and after seeing the cost for replacements i came up with the following concept. Due to the car being sold before I started I never got to try it, now almost 3 years later Im looking at buying a 92 rs and I cant help but think it would look so good with this mod.

"THE CONCEPT"
To cut the hood as one would to make the louvers fully fuctional, as outline in other threads here, but instead of making the individual slats stationary, hinge them in the middle and install a conecting rod underneath, somewhat similar to a window shutter, and attach said rod to throttle linkage using a motorcycle brake cable. The end result being that when the car is parked or at idle the louvers would be closed and thus water tight and at WOT they would be standing nearly straight up allowing the needed air flow.

Currently Im at the design stage ,at least till I get some down time this winter... currently what Im working on is how to give the louvers a water tight seal while being able to withstand the heat and wind turbulance. I will try to remember to get some pics of designs I have draw out uploaded.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

A lot of work for something that would look cool, but offer no rear benefits. Straight up louvers will not force air into the intake. But would aloow some hot air to disapate from under the hood. So, if you are needing to get heat out of the engine compartment, they might offer some benefit.

That said, it is cool and different, so if thats all that matters and you realize that your work will not pay off with power gains, give it a shot.

WickedCrazy

I think what hes trying to do is get it so that he can have open louvers without the issue of water getting all over the engine while its raining. Sure some may get in when in motion, but it wont be the large amount that would get on it if the car was sitting still at a light during a heavy rainfall

toxik IROC

iTrader: (12)

I think it will look good

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

do you happen to be in texas? (a lot of people on here seem to be) if so i can help with this... what you're saying makes perfect sense to me, and i think we could get it done...

you'd need 2 cables by the way, an open and a close, or, a spring system to pull it either open or shut which depends upon which position it will be in most of the time..

i.e. if it will be OPEN most of the time, then you need springs to hold it open, then you use the cable to shut it and lock in place under the dash,

or if it will be CLOSED most of the time, then you need springs to hold it shut, and the cable to open it. the option will be chosen that's best so as not to place un needed stress on the springs for any more time than is necessary for longevity.

you'd need to cut the louvers, then cut corresponding holes in a piece of plate steel, and affix brackets for it to slide on under the hood..

the problem you will have is making it completely water tight.. if it leaks at all, then it kind of beats the purpose.

If the goal is to keep water from entering the motor compartment while you are driving, then it should help quite a bit. But if you keep the car outside and it's raining, it will still leak around the plate.

one way around that is building in a drainage system to where when the rain comes through the louvers, it will drain down the plate and into a catch and out the side of the compartment to the ground. (easier said than done and seems like way too much work when there are better options)

Another way to do it would be to rubberize the plate, and have some kind of system that slides up and down instead of front to back or back to front...

then when it's open air flows in (or out), when it's closed, the holes are sealed. more like a trap door / elevator system than a sliding system.. it will still allow for heat to escape but may not be as efficient.

a cable system would be more difficult if you wanted the front and back both to slide up and down.. you would need 2 cables.. front and back... which could be cool because you could release one at a time or both...

The other way is to do the same thing but put it on a hinge system, then you'd only need 1 cable. and no springs, unless you find that there is a considerable amount of air pressure in the hood causing it to flap, or if it flaps when you hit bumps (it would)..

does all of that make sense?

the hardest part is figuring out the amount of clearance you have to do these things, and how efficient they'd really be for what their designed for vs the "cool factor"...

if you are going for an OEM style IROC hood with working louvers, i'd opt for the vertical hanging plate system option.. then you can use the original plastics on the hood, and cut holes underneath them and use the rubberized plate to block the air when needed.

if you're making old school 60's 70's style louvers, then i'd ....... probably still go for the up down style if you're trying to keep water out of it while it's sitting in your yard.

or you can do it the ******* way and duct tape a walmart bag under the hood before it rains...

eeh......... whatever... lol

el_muerte

Good luck getting 'em to seal water-tight.

crazyokie

there is a large cool factor there, but the main gain im considering is the abilty to let air escape the the engine compartment at high speeds (140+). I had installed second gen fender vents on my old 88 and although the served the purpose well I never cared for the look. One idea I,ve been considering is making a lip on the bottom side of each louver to take the water to the sides of the louvers and into drip rail underneath the assembly and probably out the back of the engine compartment via rubber hose or something similar, Im wanting the vents to look as close to the stock plastic ones as possible. I have a fully equipped machine and welding shop to work with so the fabrication doesn't really scare me. I also have an old iroc hood to use so i can still use and drive the new car while also working on this project.
Oh btw I bought my new camaro today 92 RS t-tops, 305ci, 700r4, I will take some pics and get them posted tonight along with my drawings of the vents.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

Yah I addressed that above.. pretty easy ( sealing water tight)

crazyokie

sry bout that i read it and it just didnt register been a very long day, my main reasoning for choosing that route is i just wasn't sure the rubber coating would seal the vents. Btw Im in Oklahoma.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

Sorry I was quoting muerto but on cell phone and didn't see that you responded. Will get back to u in a bit, working in th garage, think you're on the right track though! Bbs

crazyokie

The drawings cant be seen in the pictures i tried to take, but Im currently downloading AutoCad so I can draw them out in MUCH greater detail, on an off note there's a program you can use to take autocad drawings and turn them into 3d parts to see how they will work with each other but I cant remember the name anyone here know it by chance?

87 player bird

I think at speed, the louvers (standing straight up) would rip off. Cool idea tho.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

AutoCAD DOES turn things into 3d... it's a 2d or 3d modeling software....

not to discourage you though, but, unless you already know how to use AutoCAD, you're probably going to spend about a month trying to learn how to make anything do anything in it.

I've had it for over a year, and i'm only just now figuring it out, and i'd consider myself -extremely- computer literate. i'm a developer... (among other things)

It's just that AutoCAD isn't very intuitive, it was designed initially back in the 80's and used tons of typed commands, and has been catering to the same audience for the last 25+ years, so there are lots of things that are still based on that old outdated idea structure.......

that's why most people getting into the industry use Solidworks these days..

though architects still prefer AutoCAD...

if you really want something cool, Inventor, and Solidworks are the best investment of time in my (and most other's) opinion.

You can do stress tests and all sorts of stuff with those. it's incredible actually.

NOW --------- if you're talking about something that takes AutoCAD files and turns them into G-code for a CNC machine, that's different.... there's actually several plugins for that but they aren't piratable, you have to purchase them... and you have to research which is the best. and lots of them plug into something like Cambam, or Mach3 for the CNC operation.

but AutoCAD by itself will not turn things into G-code. you have to import the DXF into Cambam or something similar.... (cambam has a free trial and is probably the best bang for your buck software for G-code creation, then Mach3, is the most common - affordable CAM software..

note, there's a difference between CAD and CAM... Cam runs a mill or lathe, CAD designs the part....

WITH THAT SAID....

if you're looking for something QUICK AND RELATIVELY EASY just to throw something together, try

GOOGLE SKETCHUP .. it's free, and works pretty well for what it is. it may not be precise to 1000000000000000000th's of an inch, but.... honestly, you don't need that for this project. You would need it if you were designing Brake Rotors or CNC porting your heads or something...


hope that helps a little bit...

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

as far as the idea you have, yeah, the rubberized plate may or may not work depending upon the seal you create with the plate... i mean.. how tightly it presses...

but since you're thinking about drip pan's and the like, then, consider this...

(man it's hard to explain stuff like this in writing, and i don't have time to draw it up)

for reference sake, let's say you decide to go with a mount that hinges towards the firewall and drops towards the grill, and uses one cable to pull it towards the sky to put it in closed position..

you have 2 small springs that hold it open with force..

leave about an inch of space between the hood and the plate, and put AUTO weather stripping (like around a car window) around the perimeter of the plate (or hood) and when the flap closes, it closes tightly along the weather stripping.. leave a hole towards the lowest part of the tray to go into the drip pan and down the hose or whatever to the wheel well.

"?"?"?"?"?"

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

actually, you don't even need a drip pan if you do that, you'd just need to weld a nipple to the end and put a 1/4" hose on it that runs out... of course when you open your hood, the hose will be hanging there looking stupid unless you mount it towards the front of the car and put a funnel near the headlight area that runs another hose out to the ground....

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

final note!!

as for how to close the device, consider using something similar to how the throttle opens on a carb.. the brass deal that the cable goes into and twists to open..

pull the cable, it twists the "thing" and pushes on a small plate that closes and locks the hood scoops closed.. you could even make a latch and spring assembly with a 2nd wire that you pull to release and drop the scoop open.

again........ easier to show than to explain...

if you have no idea what i'm talking about, let me know i'll try to clarify lol.. till then, good luck

crazyokie

I actually took a few classes on autoCad and generalized drafting so its kinda second nature to me(and yes the commands are a complete PITA), but solidworks is what im trying to think of thank you so much. I wish i had cnc my life would be so much easier...im stuck with digital read outs that dont work, so its all me. What i was thinking on the drip tracks was putting in at an angle with the lower end towards the rear with a nipple and hose running down the hood and firewall thus allowing the water to drain without opening the hood. if i got the time this weekend i may try to make a mini version with 3 or 4 blades so i can test some of the ideas we've got going here. I got an old pickup hood i could use to test with so im not cutting the iroc hood up quite yet. all this talking bout it has me wanting to put this project into full swing now but at 60-90 hrs a week at work i just dont have the time right now but its okay the winter down time is coming...

crazyokie

I know i said nearly straight up but i meant just and much steeper angle(id hate to mess up the low drag co. our cars have from the factory),they will be made of aluminum and mounted from underneath, if this thing rips off my hood will be going with it, so lets hope not...

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

no problem man,

and as for taking drafting, yeah, you'll get it figured out then, i didn't take classes, so it's been fairly difficult to put all the pieces together aside from watching tutorials and such, but in fairness, i don't put nearly as much time into it as i should, and part of that was because i had been looking for solidworks, which has until the other day proven really difficult to find.

but, i dig solidworks..... it's complicated in DIFFERENT ways. in some ways i still prefer cad, but that's just because i've got more experience with it at this point.

and yeah, CNC makes life a hell of a lot easier, i have a 12x12, but, i'm still having issues getting it calibrated correctly. I milled my first part on it the other day and it came out about ( ) that big.... and it was supposed to be about 4x8 inches. lololol

as for the hood, i think you're on the right track, and it shouldn't be that big of a stretch to do it...

I'd like to see the progress though because i've been toying with similar ideas. I have a stock RS hood though, and don't foresee buying another hood any time soon lol.

i'd be more than happy to help bounce ideas back n forth too, wish i could help physically, but it's a bit of a drive to OK lol...

crazyokie

lololol, know the feeling had a plasma cam cutting table for the drafting class, thing took forever to get right, but after it was done the results couldn't be beaten for mass production, been thinking if i can get a working prototype i may see if i can use it to make parts for a few to sell, at least that way i can get a little comp. for all the time and effort this is gonna take...

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

hey have you seen this thread?

he's done HALF of what you're talking about ....

the TOP half.. lol..

but looks pretty good..

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...ification.html

you should pitch the closing louver idea..

and yeah i'd probably sell them too... i'm going to start producing some parts here n there soon too.. sand cast, mill, whatever. as i need parts, i'll make molds, parts, and sell a few, like you said, to recoup cost!

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

The fact is that I don't see how you're going to make this any more functional than an open set of louvers, but there is the coolness factor there, so if it works for you...

As far as an actuator, I'd probably just use a vaccum or electrical solinoid, simpler to setup and safer. If you're going to put a manual cable linkage like that with a spring for return, make sure that you do it with the return spring working with the throttle spring. You don't want this thing fighting your throttle linkage, it would suck if it went WOT and you couldn't close it.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

yeah i kinda like the solenoid idea actually.... i'd probably do that before putting a pull cable under my dash come to think about it... a button/switch is cleaner..

crazyokie

The main idea behind it is being able to close the vents and effectively weather seal them and of course the look factors in there too. I like the idea of an electric selinoid, been thinking bout whats gonna happen in the winter when it freezes with water sitting in the lips, holding the vents shut and locking the throttle... Right now I'm more focused on the main assembly design and fabrication, the actuator end of it will come later. If I went vaccum would it be possible to use parts from a firebird headlight assemble? Im needing a stroke of about 2-3 inches.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

i guess as an added layer of security, you could always put a car cover over it when it's sitting in the driveway in the snow..... probably be the smartest thing to do anyway. but i think unless it's completely full of snow and ice, then i doubt it will completely bind, though it may... i dont know, living where i live, i don't have to deal with ice and snow enough to know how it really works on **** like that.


but i'd say car cover it... it may beat the purpose kinda, but, it's an added protection anyway. you don't have to cover it when it's raining if it's sealed i guess, just ice and snow.

as for the FB flippy light thing, there are tons of cars with flippy lights aside from the fb's and most of the newer ones have better technology than the old vacuum tube systems...

which, im not sure if that's what they have but i'd assume so.

the 98-02's are electric for what i can tell, but i know that the C4 corvettes are vacuum.

so i'd imagine the fb's from that same time frame are too... but it's all theory, i don't -actually- know. lol

87 player bird

Use the air induction set up off an 80-81 z air induction assembly. electric solenoid on the gas pedal.

89_RS

OP:

A push-pull cable would allow the louvers to match the throttle. You'd need to beef up the springs in the throttle a bit to handle the additional load for moving the louver parts. For the louvers, think along the lines of a blade with gear teeth that turns pinions on each louver.

mitch,

You're over thinking AutoCAD. AutoCAD has used the same keyboard commands for almost the last 30yrs. All you really need to know is line, circle, region, extrude, union, revolve, and a few other keyboard commands to do 99% of the stuff you need. Solid Works, Inventor, & CATIA allow for the importation of 2D AutoCAD files to develope the 3D model. If 3D modeling in AutoCAD is hard for you, I highly suggest getting one of them to help with the 3D modeling. Solid Works, Inventor, & CATIA also have CAM software written into the program, but they don't CAM complex parts very well which leaves you better off using Mastercam or other CAM software.

There is no need for CNC machining of any of the parts in this project. CNC is complete overkill for what he's wanting to do. He's not cutting custom gear splines on a pinion here. He could get an Erector Set and find all the needed parts in there or go to the local RC Hobby shop and find all the parts he needs.

I worked in a machine shop for the last few years and if theres one common theme in all the projects I did was the engineer over thought what they wanted to do. A 10min talk with them and there plans of a 50hr CNC project got reduced to a 5hr manual mill & hand fit project that resulted in the same thing that they wanted with minimal time investment. Just because you have CAD/CAM software at your disposal doesn't mean you need to use it. Often times, a set of calipers, notepad & pen/pencil, common taps & dies, common pitch english/metric fastener, strong magnet, and some cardboard & tape are all anyone will need to do a project.

crazyokie

89_rs:the Cad is more for if I decide to do a small production run, till I get a working "problem free" prototype its gonna be a back burner thing. Thanks for the suggestions.

Got started on the fins this weekend but with the earthquakes here work may pick back up a little, redrilling any colapsed wells, in effect pushing my winter down time back into December instead of mid Nov. Right now my goal is to have it done by the end of the year. I decided to wait till its done to post any pics to make the thread a little easier for people with a slow connection (like myself) to view. In the mean time I'll try to post updates via text.

BTW: I'd like to say thank you to all who have posted and helped get this project off the ground.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

i don't remember for sure at this point if that was the point i was trying to make, i think it was just a random out of context i was having, but point taken either way, and that is sound advice for sure.

and maybe i was over exaggerating the complexity of autocad slightly, but for someone who hasn't messed with it for the first 30 years of it's existence it is difficult without going through actual lessons... its not impossible for sure, but i guess it's overly basicly complicated????? that doesn't make sense at all, but to me, it is....

Photoshop is the same kind of way though. i am an expert with photoshop, but i've been using it since the 90's and have been keeping up with it ever sense and actually took a class on it in high school in the mid 90's, so it makes sense to me even when they add new features, however a lot of people who start with the newest version are completely lost. I understand common practices and industry standards when using the software. it's easy for me to take it for granted when trying to explain things to people who haven't used it though. i think autocad puts me in the exact opposite position. using the wrong tools for the job and kinda making stuff up as i go hoping it's right, and seems to be, but come to find out it's not the easiest route later.

as for solid works and such, oddly enough, i find solidworks much much easier than autocad. inventor as well. at least solidworks has an AMAZING built in tutorial system that will start you from "hello.... please open the software" and gets you going on what you need really quickly. autocad i think expects that you are an engineering major and are learning in college, or have had 30 years of practical experience, or are learning on the job from someone who knows it, etc etc. the tutorials are good, but they seem to be more of a "ok, this button does this" than an instructional how to. and that's what held me back for so long as well as not putting nearly enough time into it.

lol..... i'm REALLY not sure if that all came across as rude or not. i'm feeling pretty under the weather like i have sand in my lungs or something and need to get a nyquil induced sleep... If you guys don't know what cedar fever is, frickin count yourselves lucky.....

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I know mw66nova's 305 hydrolocked (the starter broke in half before it managed to hurt that legendary 305, though, so it lived after that) just from having his old 82-84 Z28 hood on his car. He had the little plates installed in his hood to block off the air inlets, but they were removable for track duty. However, he had them installed. One bad georgia rain storm, and the next day his car hydrolocked. Had to pull spark plugs and turn it over by hand and everything.



If enough water can get through that, WITH BLOCKOFF PLATES, and hydrolock an engine using a normal style drop base air filter (no filter x-stream lid or anything, regular round metal filter lid on an open element filter) I definitely wouldnt chance hoping these louvers would seal.

All it takes is one bad rainstorm - water will find a way.

affliction1

do reasearch mopar sights about airgrabber hoods there pretty cool,vacum operated to open under heavy throttle

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

i immediately shuddered when i saw the word "vacuum" knowing how many problems vacuum systems have caused me in my life. lol... but yeah, they were a cool idea. but would need a pump and all sorts of stuff unless you tapped into existing vacuum hoses, which is -not- preferable, because it could cause other issues if it comes unplugged or something... idk.. but yeah.... they are cool hoods

89_RS

No offense taken. I've used AutoCAD for the last 7yrs and have used about every version imaginable of the program (pretty much from the DOS/MAC/Windows 3.1 days upto Windows 7). They all have the same set of keyboard commands (at least for the commands I commonly use).

And no offense intended, but it helps a ton to at least have an idea of what the finished object looks like in your head before you start inputing it into CAD/CAM. The best self-help design tool anyone can get for themselves is a pencil & paper and sketch out what it is they want. A pencil is far easier to work with than CAD/CAM any day. Once you have your sketch, you can put it into CAD much faster. You'll catch a ton of your design problems in the pencil stage, the critical minor items in the CAD stage, and the little gremlins once you start making the part.

affliction1

no pip just a vac valve,and you could run the line off the brake booster line or t off the dist advance line

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

that's not entirely accurate. i had the blockoff plates off, no filter assembly, and my air pan sealing the carb directly to the hood that day. it was my stupidity that caused that. even dumber that i tried to start the car before taking the necessary precautions to not hurt the engine. thankfully, it was just a starter that broke. the 305 lives on in my dad's car now too, btw.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

this was how it was setup the night it got rain on:

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Ouch...

Well that explains a lot.

rock861261

why would you ever use vacuum when a electric motor and petechiometer is so easy... easiest way would be to have a gear to gear system and a single motor controlling both louvers...

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

i dunno man, it's been over 2 weeks since we've heard anything about the project.... i think he may have lost his drive on the project altogether lol..


if not... we want deets..

crazyokie

Sorry, I got a promotion at work it came with more money and hours, been working 70 hours a week and spending any free time fixing some other problems with the car (the PO decided to paint the engine chevy orange, so he opened the hood and just emptied a rattle can on it), not much progress on the louvers though. I do have the frame for the driver side complete and some of the fins for it done, but I haven't started mounting them yet. Hopefully I'll be able to get started on the louvers again soon if not I may just pay one of the local Fab shops to finish it for me, but that would be a last resort I'd really like to do this one myself.

williemcfly

thats crazy i had the same idea on the louvers i even drew it out and still plan on doing it i jus need an iroc hood. the difference in my idea was to use a cowl motor to open and close the louvers