YoungTaeByun

.....

TTA 1387

EFI was available from 82 up in some form or another.

Willie

iTrader: (1)

EFI is such a broad term.....

Throttle Body Fuel Injection:

1982 - 83:
RPO L05 (Cross Fire Injection): 305 - Dual throttle bodies

1988 - 92
RPO L03 (Throttle Body Injection): 305 - Single throttle body


Port Fuel Injection:

1985 - 92
RPO LB9 (305 Tuned Port Injection)

1987 - 92
RPO L98 (350 Tuned Port Injection)

1985 - 89
RPO LB8 (2.8L Multi-Port Fuel Inection)

1990 - 92
RPO LH0 (3.0L Multi-Port Fuel Injection)

MNformula350

iTrader: (2)

wasn't the RPO for cross fire cars LU5?
and the 4cyl iron duke motors from 82-86 were EFI i believe as well.
also the LHO was a 3.1 v6 MPFI

Agent13

iTrader: (6)

Correct RPO For CFI was LU5.. LO5 was an rpo for a 350 TBI truck engine I believe.

Willie

iTrader: (1)

wasn't the RPO for cross fire cars LU5?

My mistake.


and the 4cyl iron duke motors from 82-86 were EFI i believe as well.

I neglected these; didn't think anyone would be interested.


also the LHO was a 3.1 v6 MPFI

Oops. Thanks for the corrections.

Willie

Apeiron

Federal and California emissions got the TBI LQ9, exported versions got the 2bbl LQ8.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Nice Form, Dave!

And Willie, you did such a great job covering the engines that I hate to be picky, but the 350 came out on late '86 models, w/o A/C, I believe. "I could be wrong, but I don't think so"(the Monk song, lol--I love that show!).

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Ok, I hate that tiny little pic they let us put up, so here's my '87 Formula. It's still all stock, cosmetically(less the graphics) and mechanically(almost ). The cosmetic designers nailed it. No need to try to improve it.

demonchild

holy crap, you are trying to start a holy war...
i think this has been fought over many times.

i started this thread and was flamed for like 5 days...
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=213632

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

HAHA! Thanks for the link--I read all the posts. And what conclusion did you draw as your own truth to the matter? Because that's all you can do in this situation.

Yes, the 350 was available in 1986. Were any actually produced and/or sold? I dunno. Did I actually see one? Not in person. But I had the issue of C&D where they tested one, so obviously, at least one was produced--and it was not available with A/C, as I stated(which was the big complaint about it). But even if none were produced, that doesn't mean it wasn't available--and THAT'S the issue. So I'd trust the book.

And one poster on the link read from the firebird red book, which also said it was available. And since it's accurate about the reasons behind the canning of the L69 engine, I'd tend to believe it, too.

The L69 had serious hot-fuel pick-up problems. I had one, an '83 Z28. So I guess that made me one of the "testers" of that engine. That car would buck like a wild horse, lol! After probably half dozen trips to service and no one ever finding any problems with the engine(no one had yet heard of this problem), I FINALLY took Mr. Goodwrench out for a drive with me. He's like, "stop doing that!" I'm like, "I can't, I'm not doing it. It's the car!" But I still loved that engine. When it was stolen in 1986, I looked everywhere for an '86 TA or IROC with the L69, but it'd already been canned.

So I waited for the '87 so I could get the 5-speed on the TPI. And I still have that Formula.

MNformula350

iTrader: (2)

The only thing i didn't like about the 85-90 Firebird's (including Formula's) was the little blaak bumper things on the bumper covers, so i swapped mine with 84 front and rear bumper covers.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

I see you also got TA taillights, too. I almost didn't recognize that this was your car because the earlier pic looked metallic red.

Yeah, those bumper pads didn't thrill me either, but I got used to them. And I keep a bra on the nose anyway. But those little pads have sure come in handy a few times on the back, lol.

TTA 1387

The 350 never made it to production for 86. Some prototypes were made and those are the magazine and motor week cars.

The HO did have a vapor lock problem but the Monte Carlo SS was selling so well they were running out of engines. That was the main reason that the HO was dropped from the F-Body line up. It still continued to have vapor lock problems until the end of the run of the SS. But that was the only engine available for the whole production run, 83-88.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Ok, demonchild. As you've already seen on these forums, everyone knows everything, and you can't tell them otherwise, lol. But all of these "experts" have given you different answers. So that shows you that no one knows, no matter how much they think they do, lol! So as I told you already, you've gotta come up with your own "truth" through your own research.

There will be people, even GM people, who'll argue that the L69 Z28 came out in 1984 and not 1983. But it came out in late 1983. Check the books. It's in there. And I owned one, so that much I know. And check its times. They're much better than the more powerful 1987 Formula and nearly equal to the 1985 TPI Z28. And at a severe deficit in torque to those above cars, common sense tells you that the '83 L69 was definitely putting out more horsepower than either, despite its hp rating(and other "expert" opinions on this site). However, I'm not gonna get out my physics book to prove it, lol.

And yes, the L69 was canned because it was an obsolete, problem engine--despite what others have said. They could've built as many more as they'd wanted to--IF they'd wanted to. It's the same block as the 5.0 TPI. But the carb was history, and it was time to move on. So they used what they had until they ran out of them and turned their attention to the future and the fuel-injected engine.

There will be people who'll tell you that the Fiero GT didn't get its fast-back side panels and 5-speed tranny until 1987, but they're wrong. That came out at the very end of the 1986 model year. I test-drove one and almost bought it.

Trust the reference books. They aren't published with bogus information just to shake people up or **** them off. And the manufacturers certainly wouldn't publish false information as a way to "pad" their records. Even if they would, there's no way GM would say they produced a gas-guzzling engine if they didn't--especially back in 1986 because that was a HUGE issue! So if the books say the 350 was available in 1986, then it most likely was.

I thought a lot about this issue before I responded again because there was one more thing I did in early 1986 that I had to try to recall the details about, lol. I was given a personal tour of the manufacturing plant in Cincinnati(Norwood), OH. They regularly gave standard, guided-tours to groups, but this was different. One of my friends new an executive at the plant, and he took the two of us on a several-hour walking tour of the plant. We saw everything, and we got to talk to the employees, too. And let me tell you, the people who know EVERYTHING about every inch of those cars were the assembly-line employees.

Most of my time was spent talking to the engine guys. Unfortunately, I didn't talk about the 350 because my interest was in the 305. The 350 didn't interest me because it only got the automatic tranny, and I was only interested in the T-5. BUT, the 350s WERE there. He showed me how each different tranny was bolted up to each engine and what it would take to switch them, etc(because I wanted him to hook me up with a 350/T-5, lol). Mind you, this was not a Corvette plant. Those are built in Bowling Green, KY. This was the F-Body plant in early 1986, and the 1986 models were still being built.

I said earlier that I didn't know if any 350 cars were actually produced. I don't, but neither did anyone else here. So NO ONE can actually say they were NOT produced. And there's no reason the 350 engines would be on the 1986 assembly line if they weren't going to be produced. So I don't doubt that SOME were built.

So, all that said, lol, again I say to you, look for your own truth. And trust the books. It's the best place to start. Ok, let the #### fly! LOL!

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

I meant to attach the pic of my 1983 L69 HO Z28, so here it is--if I can get it small enough. I was just told it was too large.

The pic was taken at the Grand Canyon in 1984 during a cross-country trip.

The car was black with a charcoal interior, t-tops, etc. Unfortunately, that color combination came with red stripes, which I removed immediately. But the red Z28 badges(which are difficult to see here) looked great on the black and silver car.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Some 350s were built, as TEST cars. They never made it out if the factory to a new owner. They were tested throughout the model year and released publicly in 87 available with A/C, T-Tops, and had 5.7 TPI emblems, unlike the test cars. Magazines and books are often misinformed or lack credibility and I've seen way too much of it, as have others. We actually have a video of a 350 IROC-Z test car in our Movies section BTW. Notice it's not an 87 car but it's said that it's coming out in 87, which it did. Same goes for the test ASC convertible in that video, which did not come out until 87 also. Your 305 H.O power information is correct though.

TTA 1387

The reason the L69 was dropped was because of the TPI AND the fact that every 3rd Monte Carlo made had to have that engine. The fact that it was dropped from the F-Body line up in 86 doesn't mean they stopped making it. The engine lasted until 12/87 when the last Monte Carlo SS was produced for the 88 model year. Still rated at 180hp/240tq, just like it was when it was introduced in 83. It lost 10hp from the electric fan and single snorkel.

Even with the vapor lock problems, they never stopped offering that engine in the 6 year run it was made.

As an aside, which car line got the HO first? Monte Carlo or Camaro? I know both came out in 83.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Good question, Rob. I don't know! So I consulted my 1983 Chilton book, which doesn't know either, lol! So I checked it's publishing, and it was published in 1982. So it apparently has pre-production information, and that engine wasn't out until the end of the production year in 1983.

But if I were to guess, I'd say it was the Z28. But I almost suspect it was the SS or you wouldn't have asked the question, lol. But I'm gonna stick with when I heard about the engine, which was turn of the year, '82/'83.

The article was about the brand new engine being built for the Z28 because the '82 Mustang ran circles around the grossly underpowered '82 Z28. Chevy really got slammed for bringing out that awesome new car with "no" engine to back it up.

So I ran right out to order one, but no dealers had even heard of it. My 4th dealer was willing to, at least, look into it for me. And, yes, what I'd heard was true, but it wasn't available to order yet. So we wrote up an order anyway, and in the spring, I got the call saying it was FINALLY released for production, and we placed the order. I got it in July of '83! My parents were pissed because it was already a "year-old car." But you know parents, lol.

So that's my guess--the Z28. It seems like it was pretty big news when the SS got that engine, too, and the fact that it was making less power than the Z, as you pointed out. So that sounds like it had to be after the Z. And since it was big news, too, but the Z got the headlines for '83, I'd think that had to be '84 production for the SS.

However, I believe the TPI was originally designed for the 305, but the Corvette and the 350 stole that thunder. So maybe the Z28 did that to the SS in 1983.

Thanks for the info, IROCZTWENTYGR8. What a name! Too bad it's too long for a license plate, lol. But Z20GR8 fits. So the reference books that say the 350 came out in 1986 are correct. People were saying the manuals were simply wrong, which I disagreed with, which was the point I was trying to make. It's irrelevent that any were or weren't sold to the public.

Simply because they were produced, the repair manuals need to show that, which they do, because mechanics and state emissions bureaus would need to know. Because... you know those cars weren't disassembled or destroyed, lol. Somewhere, some lucky few were driving those around--PERSPIRING, lol.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I think that beyond all the print, all the rumors and all the My uncles dads cousin worked for GM......

The proof that no 86 L98 cars are out there is exactly that. NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN ONE. There are guys with cars on this site that are Rare beyond beleif, yet no 86/L98.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Sorry, but that isn't proof. Besides, it's already been established that some were built because they were tested. GM tested them, and the media tested them. So SOME people DID see them, and it's likely that those are the people who ended up with them, too. Just because it wasn't you or I or anyone else that we know, means nothing.

Let's see, at an conservative average of 300,000 cars per year(both, camaros and firebirds) over 11 production years, that's 3,300,000 thirdgens built from 1982-1992. Only a very small handful of us know about, or ever care about, this, or any other, website, lol. So I'd say there's a pretty good chance that no one here knows all of those people.

And just for fun, no one's ever seen ***, but that's not proof that he doesn't exist, is it?

Hey, I didn't say anything bad there, lol, but it editted me anyway. That *** is supposed to be G O D. I hope that comes through this time, lol.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

It's a unique name I know.

But, those test cars never made it out to a dealer, none of them. There has never ever been any proof of even one. Those cars were not certified and had no VINs, they were just test cars. They could not be sold to the public. If anything they got rid of them when they were done with them. If any did make it out I'd like to see real proof, VIN, RPOs, everything. But I pretty much know it'll never happen. Same goes for GTA test cars and ASC cars, they all came out when scheduled, not while being tested!

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Has anyone actually read anything I've written thoughout this entire topic regarding this issue? I've never said that they went to a dealer or were sold to the public. All I've done is defend the record books, which show that a small quantity of them were built. Don't try to read between the lines with my posts, lol.

But it's not impossible to rule out that someone(the "brass," so-to-speak, "special" people like that--execs, media personnel, etc.), got one, or some, out on the streets(legally or illegally). Just because no one HERE knows anyone who drove one or saw one, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

But apparently, everyone here knows everyone who ever had anything to do with anything regarding the 1986 Z28 and the 350 engine.

This is probably a dumb question, lol, but where's, or what's, TGO(where it says you're from)?

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

TGO is ThirdGen.Org.

I'd bet on not even an executive ever having one of those LOL.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

See? I knew that was gonna be a dumb question.

Ok, it's a bet. I'll research this, and we'll try to resolve it once and for all! If someone doesn't do this, it's always going to resurface, as it has this time and in the past, from what I've been told. I'll track down whoever I need to, lol.

Hey, I had to phone Pontiac Headquarters myself to get the dealer to order my '87 Formula the way I wanted it. He refused to place my order the way I'd spec'd it out. So I'm not afraid of taking on a task like this. By the way, I got my Formula exactly the way I wanted it. But back then, you could get a human on the phone--unlike today, where all you get is one recorded menu after another, sometimes NEVER getting to a live human being.

Geez, can you tell I've discovered the emoticons? Pathetic, I know. :lala: I couldn't resist that one.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Oh, I'm Tim, and I'm off to bed for tonight. So goodnight Mr. TGO Administrator, umm, whatever your name is.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

If the point is that GM took an 86 Iroc, and put an L98 engine in it, tested them, and also let the media test them, I'd agree 100%.

I also guarantee TONS of 89 thirdgen L98 cars with speed density instead of MAF. How would you test the SD set-up in a 1990 model when it was still 1989? You'd use what you had, knowing the car iteself wasn't gonna change.

To me, I don't consider the 86 with an L98 a true 86/L98. That's like saying that GM put the ZF-6speed in an RS back in 92. (actually it was still 91). Did they? ...well, I guess they did, although there were only a few. But you couldn't buy it.


....and yet, with only a few...at least 1 still surfaces at shows here and there.

...but no elusive 86/L98


By the book, there is no such car. Never was. What happened behind the scenes doesn't count, even if they let the cat out of the proverbial bag for everyone to see. Even if one was found to be owned by some big wig, it's still not a production car, and therefore doesn't count. Heck, I bet there were some 85's floating around the prooving grounds with L98's too.

I think "our" point is that they technically never existed. That's been proven over and over, no argument.
"Your" point is that literally speaking, some L98 motors did mak there way into Irocs that were "86" models. I don't think anyone can disagree that GM obviously had to test the L98/thirdgen concept before the year they were to be sold. That's a no brainer.

POINT IS= we're ALL right!

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Ok, here's what I've foundout so far about the 1986 350s. Sorry this took awhile, but it's not the priority of my life, lol. And searching for and going to bookstores takes time! So it was done as I had time for it.

Surprisingly, I've only found 7 books about the Camaro so far. I expected to find more. Each goes from year to year, 1967-2002, mentioning changes with each model year.

I foundout a little about the L69, which we've discussed, too. Its original RPO was discovered to have been used in the past, so they searched archives for an unused RPO. The next number was apparently lame, and the execs wanted something sexually suggestive. It was "hot," and the number had to be "sexy." L69 was suggested as a joke, which got a laugh, but they loved it and said, "keep it!"

I remember trying to get a vanity license plate for that, too, lol. That didn't fly. I tried spelling it out, using the numbers, etc., but the DMV was like, nope!

Getting closer to the '86 350 now, the '86 LB9's 25 hp drop from '85 was partially due to cleaned-up emissions, but mostly to separate it from the hp of the 350's 220 hp, which was due out in '86. The '87 LB9 was also only rated at 190 hp(though I'd thought it had gone back up to 215). I found my MT which tested the IROC convertible with a 305. It, along with the other books, said it had 190 hp. I have it cause it's also got the test on my '87 Formula, which was rated at 205 hp.

The poor 305! It never saw the spotlight. It came out in the late '70s to replace the 350 in the new era of smog control. But along came the '80s, and technology not only made the 350 a beast again, but it made it an EFFICIENT beast! So the little 305 was forever stuck in the "back seat." Anyway...

And now for the '86 350. Of the 7 sources I read, three make no mention of the 350 at all, period--not that it was here, not that it was coming, not that it was even rumored. Of the other 4: one mentions that production numbers reported by "trade sources" for Camaro V8s in 1986 don't match the numbers that GM reported(though it made no speculation as to why); another said that GM reported one 350 was produced in 1986; another said that GM received certification for the 350 before the end of '86 production and some '86s were produced(but it didn't say how many); and the other said that even though 1987 was the official introduction of the 350, some were produced in '86 IROCS with 5-speed manual trannies, no A/C, and no t-tops(hardtops only), but it didn't say how many were built.

Ok, that's what I've foundout so far. I doubt I'll get into this any further, but if I run across anything else, I'll post it. I'm off to spend money on my car, lol.