86WS6

iTrader: (1)

I know that I am old and out of touch, probably a little senile, and crazy. That established, here goes, dumb question or not... Back in the 60's, 70's and 80's Muscle Cars consisted of GTO's, Chevelle's, 442's, Grand Sport's, Fairlane 500's, Road Runners, GTX's, Charger's, and such. Mustangs, Camaro's, Firebird's, Cuda's, Cougar's, and Challenger's were Pony Cars. I see people refering to F-bodies and Mustangs as Muscle Cars. When did the term Pony car go away? I am thinking that it might have happened when they stopped making the original muscle cars? Charles

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

Aye, my dad still calls my his and mine(he drives a Mustang, I a Camaro) pony cars. I call them sports cars. My definition of a muscle car is exactly what you just listed.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

I am not saying that you are wrong calling f-bodies sports cars. I think that they are more similiar to sports cars than muscle cars. Of course each generation is entitled to thier own terminology. In the 60's sports cars were two seaters. That is why they used to say that the Corvette was the only American sports car. That was before the Fiero, and that 2 seat Escort thing that Ford used to build. What ever it is, I still love my Trans AM!

Charles

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

I do see your point. I guess the only explanation is that terminology changes over the years.

Tampa Hurricane

iTrader: (2)

I think that the Firebird and Mustangs are better to be called muscle cars than sports cars. I looked up the definition of a sports car and the site that I visited stated a sports car is "small, high-powered automobile with long, low lines, seating two persons". A muscle car is defined as "A high-performance automobile, often with flashy, sporty styling".
A pony car originally was a car that had four requirements:
1. Attractive, sporty styling
2. Affordable base price
3. Extensive options
4. Agressive, youth oriented marketing and advertising

Over time the "pony cars" became larger, heaver, plusher, and more expensive. It is believed that this is what caused the majority of the people to stop using the term "pony cars" and started calling the f-body style muscle cars.

ryan91rs

iTrader: (1)

ya i think pony car = sports car. It's so complicated these days? what would a 300Z be called?

and ya muscle age is over but i think it might be coming back. The hp keeps going up and the mpg seems to be good too. Z06 get 20+ mpg. I did not get that in my 84 305. I kinda wish they would bring some of them back like the chevelle, but i can't see them making one that looks as good as the old ones.

Tampa Hurricane

iTrader: (2)

ryan91rs, I thought the 300Z would just be called a rice burner and left at that.

It doesn't fit into any other classification.....engine too small and car too light to be muscle, too many seats to be sports car, and at almost $30 for stripped out base model too expensive to be pony.

Rice burner it is.

ryan91rs

iTrader: (1)

ha ha ya that is true.

online170

Muscle and pony are usually addressed towards the domestic american cars. I wouldnt call the F-bodies muscle cars, they never were. They were pony back in the day.

However, "muscle" i thought, was stopped being used to describe cars around 1974 possibly a little earlier. For some reason, i think pony was stopped around the same time.

There is a certain time period, i think around 1967-1974 where these cars were actually sold as muscle cars. However, like the term "posi" it became more of a catch phrase, and theres gonna be arguments about what is what... This is possibly a question for someone who does classic car appraisals.

However, i think with the birth of the new challenger, the camaro, and the already existing mustang, i think these terms will come back. However, MUSCLE CAR WARS sounds much much cooler than PONY CAR WARS so i think thats what will cause confusion.,

The corvette was kind of an oddball, it was never really referred to as muscle. Its always been established as the sports car. So after pony and muscle, anything that tried to be either powerful, or fast, so long as it was a coupe kinda fit into the sports category.

Krazzycowgirl

As for the use of the name of Sports Car for the Fbody it comes from the Insurance industry.

They call the Camaro & firebird a Sports COUPE so alot of people who dont know better thinks that, that means they have a SPORTS CAR.

The sports car is as you said a 2 seater, powerfull engine & fun to play with.
Sports COUPE is something like the firebird & the Camaro, But can also include other cars like the 3000gt & what have you.

Then you have the sporty cars, Stuff like the Fiero, MR2 something small compact may be a 2 seater may be a 4 seater, with smaller engine than most but with some pick up & go.


I still call My Fleat of Camaros Pony cars lol (I have 4 Camaros)

JimmyDavidson

I'd say the "Pony car" term went a way around the time muscle cars ended(1972-3) but I wasn't born back then so I couldn't say for sure. I dont think that many people even used it to begin with, but I could be wrong.

Here's my definition of a muscle car. 1. High Compression/High Performance/Cammed/Carbed V8 Engine 2. "In your face" body design 3. QUALITY AMERICAN MADE PARTS 4. Chrome bumper 5. Dual Exhaust(w/o emissions crap) 5. 14" or better yet 15" wheels(specifically Cragars or rally wheels) 6. Chrome trim

There's probably more I just can't think of ATM.

Pony cars are just a smaller more compact muscle cars, so I would still consider them muscle cars. I think muscle cars died in 1972, and they started in 1964(I think) Gas prices and Imports ruined muscle cars IMO

The cars newer than 1972, only have a resemblance to muscle cars, but I would put them in with American sports cars, exotic sports cars are a whole nother class.

Thirdgen's still have some of the muscle car feel, but its hidden behind a weak 305/350TPI and groundfx . That's just my opinion. My plan is to build a thirdgen to look as musclar as I can. Using styling from 69 and 70 Camaros.

okfoz

Wow we sure have a lot of uninformed opinions flying around today...

MUSCLE cars were originally the mid sized cars IE:
Chevrolet: Malibu, Chevelle (SS package)
Pontiac: Lemans, Tempest (GTO)
Olds: Cutlass (442)
Buick: Skylark (GS)

Another classification of MUSCLE was the larger cars IE:
Chevrolet: Impalla
Buick: Riviera

Although most people do not classify the larger high HP cars in the Muscle category they can be classified as such by some enthusiests.

PONY cars on the other hand got their name from none else than the Mustang. Obviously the term "Pony". Another car which was introduced in this category in 1964 was the Baracuda, later in 1967 the Camaro and Firebird joined the frey from GM and they fell in that same class as the Cuda & Mustang and Cougar as they were smaller than the mid sized cars like the Chevelles & LeMans. Although the Camaro & Firebird were slightly larger than the Mustang rival they were targeted at the youth market as an inexpensive "Sporty" car. In the 80's the Pony car included the Charger, the Turisimo, and Daytona... later on the Dodge (I cant recall the name but it was the same as a Mitsubichi (cant spell today) 3000GT.

A "SPORTS CAR" is none of the above, in order to have a TRUE Sports car in just about ANY BOOK you will find the definition is a 2 DOOR 2 SEAT car. Just like a Hard top is a car without a frame around the windows, and a sedan has the frame around the windows the term "Sports Car" is reserved for those cars with only 2 seats, like a Corvette, the Datsun 240Z & 260Z and later Nissan 280Z, 300Z & most recent the 350Z.

PONTIAC (specifically John Delorian) wanted a Sports car in 1967, NOT a pony car. GM would not let Pontiac have a sports car to compete with the Vette probably because of Chevorlet having poor sales with the Vette anyways... besides Pontiac would have probably done it better and faster in which case the Corvette may have gone away. Since Pontiac could not get their 2 seater they set out to actually consider the Firebird as a Sports car more than a pony car. The Design aspects that they incorperated in the Firebird really showed this aspect moreso than the Camaro, especially visible in the 3rd gens with the sloped front end giving the Firebird more of a Ferrari look and feel than the Camaro's Masculine American Feel.

The term Pony car is still around and in hard core collector circles the F-body remains a Pony car with the mustang. I think the Mustang (especially in the 80's) resembled the Chevette more than a camaro for size and appearance.

Another aspect is to consider the Miata group the small 2 seat "Sports" cars which include the Solstace, Saturn Sky & other small 2 seaters like the (I think the Porsche Boxter) might fall into this. I have not really heard a better term than Roadster which is typically applied to 2 seat cars with an open top (or convertible).

John

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

+1 to everything that John said up there.

Muscle cars are mid sized cars with big engines, simple as that. The Mustang/Camaro/Firebird/Cuda are not mid sized cars.

Xophertony

john, the dodge version of the 3000gt was called the "Stealth". my brother used to have one... it sucked. fast as a bat out of hell, but what a POS. he had the TT one too.


another thing to reaffirm "pony car". GMs commercials and internal sales videos reffered to it as a pony car, as did that video from that car tv show where they show off the "new for 1987" covertable IROCs. it's in the media section of this sight.

okfoz

I did not think the term "Pony car" ever went away... "Stealth" Yeah, thats the name...

thanks


John

NobleHdwe

Just as a die hard GM fan it's hard for me to call a camaro a "Pony Car" seeing that the mustang's emblem is a "Pony"
I am guilty though of considering the Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, etc.. muscle cars, but only really the V8 models. Just my

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

It's understandable for a die-hard GM person to be put-off by someone using the term Pony Car for an F-body, when as John pointed out, that the term obviously originated with the Mustang. The irony however, is that GM and Chrysler embraced the term also. Back in the day, I faintly remember a model of the Mustang called the Pony Edition. My uncle Bob, a design enginner for GM/Chevy Division, sometime around 1965, spoke of the upcoming development of a completely new Chevy sports coupe, performance car, pony type car, only better, to compete with the Mustang. Everyone was perplexed and amazed of the overall success of the Mustang, and they all wanted a piece of the action, and hated to Ford eating thier lunch. Charles

okfoz

In a mannor of sepaking a "Muscle Car" is not an all encoumpassing label that you can affix to a particular model. I guess you could but the essence of a true muscle car was it had a big engine in a mid size car. A Chevelle for example I would not consider a Muscle car if equipped with a V6, That would be a 2 door coupe. That same Chevelle with a 327 may or may not be a "Muscle car" by definition, depending on the 327 installed as not all 327's are equal... BUT you install the Big Block 396 and presto! you have a bonefied Muscle car.

The Term Muslce indicates it has a lot of power. So I would think anything less than one of the top motors for the year, probably the Top motor and the one just below it, in our case the L98 & LB9, possibly the L69 and definately the LC2 would be the only two that might fall within the category of Muscle.

John

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

Okfoz that's exactly the definition for "Muscle Car".The biggest,usually highest HP engine,in the smaller midsize cars back in the '60s.John Delorean did just that with in creating the GTO.Taking the 389 from the Catalina/Bonneville and slipping into the Lemans and adding HD suspension(for the day).It will be argued that the mid '50s Chrysler letter cars were the first "Muscle Cars".But you have a very large car with a lot of HP pushing it(put enough HP behind a brick and it will be fast).

Then you have the personal luxury cars like the Monte Carlo and Gran Prix that could be ordered with the largest motors 396-402/454 or 389/400/421/428/455.The Ad men coined "Pony Car" for the Mustang but it spread to all cars in her size class which fit the long hood short rear deck.This lumped the GM F-Body,Mopar E-Body and the Javelin(IMHO the early AMX is a sports car).

With the 3rd Gens being designed in the late '70s economy/emissions were dictating terms.By the mid '80s it was shown you could have clean running,efficient cars that could also be fun.This said I agree the LB9,L98,LC2 and the L69 definitly fit(LU5 could have if given the chance)muscular cars.Ford did it with the 302 but stumbled in the initial change to the 4.6.But I personally still consider all of them Pony Cars.

okfoz

THe problem with the large "Letter" series from Chrysler is they were considered an old mans car for too long. Although they had the power, they were a larger car, kind of like a Buick Electra, or Olds 98, or Bonneville etc. In effect they were not performers, although they had mucsle they were not particularly fast cars (when 360 hp gets you a 16 sec quarter mile you know thats one heavy car).

I agree the AMX was a sports car by definition. Although it was a shortened Javelin I do not believe they had a back seat, by definition a 2 seat car is a sports car.

Performance wise, the 350 cars were not that far behind some of the "muscle cars" of the 60's for performance.

John

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

The '68-'70 AMX didn't have a back seat and were intended to compete with the Vette and the Javelin with the other "Pony Cars"(same thing can be said for the '65-'66 Shelby Mustangs which most didn't have back seats either).

And if you look at runs made today by factory trim "Muscle cars" the 350 powered(even 5 speed LB9 & L69)3rd Gens are able to outrun many of them 0-60 and 1/4 mile(and get 20+mpg highway with A/C and power accessories).And not to mention when the first hard curve comes up which would be able to handle it at speed.A lot of the magazine road tests of the '60s were tainted with specially prepped cars.

TTA850

This makes sense to me, because I consider the Grand National a sort of modern muscle car. After all it's a mid size car with a powerfull engine and a special trim package. As for the thirdgen Camaro and Trans Am I guess going by the definition below they would be either GT cars or compact sport coupes. Though considering the era of the late 80's and early 90's, a time which some consider the second coming of the muscle car where the factory put out alot of high performance cars and were in a hp battle year to year with the 5.0 Mustang/Thunderbird/Cougar/LSC, TPI Camaro/Trans Am, and Grand National/T-Type/TTA. While only one of those cars is a mid size car they were the modern muscle cars I remember at the street races every weekend from the mid 80's through the 90's running along side the classic muscle cars.

"Muscle Car - definition - A muscle car is a high-performance automobile. The term principally refers to American, Australian and South African models and generally describes a rear wheel drive mid-size car with a large, powerful V8 engine and special trim, intended for maximum torque on the street or in drag racing competition. It is distinguished from sports cars, which were customarily and coincidentally considered smaller, two-seat cars, and GTs, two-seat or 2+2 cars intended for high-speed touring and possibly road racing. High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang. Other factors used in defining classic muscle cars are their age and country of origin. A classic muscle car is usually but not necessarily made in the US or Australia between 1964 and 1975. Notably, the term "muscle car" did not enter common usage until after production of the cars had essentially ended. During their heyday, print media usually referred to this class of vehicle as supercars."

jimdutro

iTrader: (1)

Okfoz, thanks for clearing up the confusion about "pony" cars, they were and will always be Mustangs. Muscle cars were mid-`60`s to `72 (72 because smog restrictions got tough in `73 and hp was cut in half or more) domestics and sports cars were always imports.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Good Point!
Charles

LG4TA

I know of a couple 350 300 hp 1969 Malibus that could put it on some 383 Chargers and the like. 15 Second 1/4 mile time car back then were considered muscle cars. You gotta remember though back then those cars had poor traction with the tire technology they had.

A 1983 L-69 Z-28 Camaro could give a 1969 Chevelle SS 396 325HP a good run, maybe even beat one of them.

armac

I always looked at as a Muscle car- light car big engine and fast in a straight line but does not handle the conners very well. A spots car might not have as big of engine but was built to preform well around the coners and in the straight line runs.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

My dad had a 66 GTO, 398, 3 duces, 4 speed close ratio Muncie, Hurst Compitetion Plus shifter, 3:73 Limited Slip, G-70 14 Firestone Redlines, otherwise stock, and would do mid to upper 14's regularly. A friend had a 65 Dodge Coronet 500, Factory 426 Hemi, two four barrels, 4 speed, that would do low to mid 14's regularly. Both, however, were only fast in a straight line. I had a 1970 Shelby GT-350, which contrary to popular belief, was too heavy to be fast on the drag strip, and handled curves like a piece of junk. In those days if you wanted to go fast around curves, you got a Corvette, or one of the european sports cars. Charles

JimmyDavidson

Yeah, I agree with you. Muscle cars are small cars with a big motor stuffed in it. A pony car IS a muscle car, it is just a more compact muscle car, a different branch of muscle cars. But poor handling doesnt have to do with muscle cars it was just the technology back then, but you are right for the most part.

Muscle car: All American, Australian, and African, 2-door, high performance coupes(1964-1972) Nuff said..

But obviously mid-size doesnt have anything to do with muscle cars, or you wouldnt be able to count any of the Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth cars, as most of them were huge boats... but they had motors big enough to classify them as muscle cars.

tranceemotionz

when you refer to camaros as "pony cars" are you referring the the third gens, or all camaros, and if so, what about the yenko, copo, and the berger camaro's would those be "ponies" or muscle, just curious, i just refer to my camaro as a third gen, and most people are like what is that? but anyways just curious.

Krazzycowgirl

All Camaros are PONY CARS
Now when you talk about your Camaro you are talking the Generation of the car not the Muscle car/Pony car.

tranceemotionz

exactly, i dont consider it either one, i just call it a third gen, and thats just what it is, a third generation camaro.

elky74

I never considered 3rd gens as muscle cars...in stock form that is. But when you mod it with a built up 350 on up to a 454, then it's like dynamite in a small package. It packs a punch.

BLACK92B4C

As described above...pony cars are smaller and lighter, and still have HP with 4 seats. Sports cars are two seaters...Muscle cars are bigger and heavier. So I'd call today's Camaros a Muscle car, mainly becuse of weight. I think in today's insurance market they can not build a true pony car.

Iroctopless

What would a '60's Mustang or Camaro with a 6 banger in it be called (or a 3rd gen 4 banger - yikes)? They would have 3 out of 4 of your pony car criteria. The one missing would be the hp.

Would they basically be just be an econo-car dressed to kill?

BLACK92B4C

IMHO I'd just call that an economy car Or just a regular car. I still remeber back in the mid 80's, I was at the local Chevy dealership with my dad and a 6 banger '69 Camaro was being traded in. I wanted to pick it up, it was only like $1500. My dad nixed it because it was "just a 6" LOL. I also had a buddy in high school with a 1964 Impala SS, straight 6. It was factory, and a rarely ordered option (for obvious reasons LOL!)

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

The term pony car was originally coined as a nick name for the Mustang. By the time the other American car companies started making cars to compete with the Mustang, the term had evolved to mean a smaller, four seat, performance oriented, car aimed at the youth market, ie: Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, Baracuda, and the Javelin. The term gave the manufactures a way to differeante from the larger midsized muscle cars, like the GTO, Chevelle, and 442, as well as sub-compacts, like the Nova, Falcon, and other smaller cars of the era. The term had nothing to do with engine size. The name probably never would have stuck, had GM, Chrysler, and American Motors not embraced it as well. Ford had hit a homerun with the Mustang, and everyone else wanted thier share of sales from thier own version of the pony car. The name was a product of the 60's, and although the basic format of the cars is carried on through the newer models, the term pony car seems to have become outdated, unpopular, and apparently inaccurate. It's just a 60's thing. Charles

67camarorsss

The "Pony Edition" is what Ford used to denote a deluxe interior for the Mustang. Think along the terms of Deluxe Interior for a 1st gen Camaro. Armrests styled into the door with handles recessed into a cup and seat backs with running horses embossed into them. Also similar to Camaro (or conversely, Camaro similar to Mustang) it was available in bench (an option as buckets were standard) as well as buckets.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

There was a Mustang Pony Edition. It was a mid priced trim package, that offered some of the more popular options grouped together, and had a special badge on the lower front fenders. It had nothing to do with the fact that the public called all cars similiar to the Mustang Pony Cars. Once the public started refering to the Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, Baracuda, and Javelin as Pony cars, the car magazines started using the term, then the manufactures themselves started using the term to refer to thier own cars. Charles

TPI

Come on down and run my weak GFX'd 350 TPI Sports coupe

In all honestly, 1985 is when American cars FROM THE FACTORY
started to get fast & more efficient. I have trouble calling my Trans AM
a muscle car. "A factory performance car" sounds about right.

Most importantly, F-bodies can maneuver far better than any
of your grandfather's muscle cars.. the intent was not to go
in a straight line!

Muscle & efficient don't exactly go hand & hand.. So, Id
leave that off my list... "Pony" is the correct term!

Id love to see where the GM V8 would be today
without the "weak 305/350 TPI" .. oh wait, let alone
any car for that matter!

TPI

Id like to sum up my statement by saying that if
all you guys think the 1960's GM, Ford and Chrysler
cars were banging out 11-second quarter mile times
from the factory think again..

They were readily 13-14 second 1/4mile cars, getting
8 MPG with leaded gasoline...

It took 30 years to get back to a 13-14second FACTORY
performance car... Now, you all mock it like it's garbage..


Either way, I wasn't going to sit back and let
this misinformation go without any resistance!

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

I did live through the 60's muscle car era, and although they were cool cars in thier own right, they were far from perfect. Many of you have already mentioned the handling limitations, and there were many other limitations to those cars as well. They were intended to be throw away cars. The carburators had to be adjusted weekly. Valve jobs at 50K were not uncommon. The plastic parts on the interiors, just rotted away into nothing. Engines rarely lasted beyond 100K between overhauls. Front end parts wore out fast, such a ball joints at 20K on some models. Then there was the rust problems. A four year old car was considered old.

Now jump forward to the F-bodies of the mid 80's and on. Engines run 100K between tune-ups. An engine may run 200K easy with good maintance. The fuel economy is two to three times better then any muscle car. They are faster. They handle better. The plastic parts lasts longer. Paint is better. The bodies don't rust out as fast. The cars have a greater potential for modification and racing. They perform better while meeting more rigid federal laws for safety and emission's controls. Before anyone starts trashing the early 80's F-bodies, GM had to try and satisfy the government while trying to build a car that was somewhat practical, and appealing to the consumer. I believe that considering the compromises required by all sides, they did a pretty decent job. Comparing our cars to the cars of the 60's is like comparing apples to oranges. It is not a fair comparison. I have had more fun with less problems out of the four 3rd gen's that I have owned then any of the 60's cars that I used to own. Charles

LG4TA

The old muscle cars do have a few things about them that were better than the later models.

1. My tool box just needed a 3/8", 7/16", 1/2", 9/16" and a 5/8" wrench and I could take a Chevelle apart very quickly. Try that on one of our F-bodies. Phillips and straight screwdriver too.

2. The only tuning aids I needed was a dwell meter for the points and some feeler gauges for the sparkplugs maybe a vacuum gauge for the carb adjustment if you wanted. On the Chevelle changing points and plugs maybe took 30-45 min. at the most.

3. They just look a lot more cooler than the F-bodies.

4. When I am in the Chevelle people just stare like they have never seen a car like that.

Here are some things I like about the F-bodies.

1. Good brakes. 4 Wheel drum or just Front disk doesn't stop like my T/A.

2. I can pull down 26 mpg on the highway. The Chevelle is 14-15 mpg driving easy.

3. My 83 WS-6 will dust the Chevelle in a corner.

4. My 83 T/A Computer carbureted 305 starts up a lot better without pumping the gas until my right foot falls off.

The Chevelle is the one that will be left in the garage if financial problems ever hit though.

Lee1

I agree on the classification of Muscle being mid sized and Pony being small sized. The classes are not meant to denote which is faster, it sets a body to power ratio. The small cars will naturally have an advantage over a mid sized car with the same engine.

CHEVYFREAK182

I have to agree that in the beging there were muscle cars whic were mid sized cars with big engines (ex: gto charger ect) and there were pony cars which were small uni body cars with anything from sporty 6 banger to big block v8(ex: camaro mustang ) But In my opinion i believe the term muscle car has evolved over time into any domestic 2 door coupe with a high performance v8 and agressive styling

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Very true. Also think back about what other cars were available at the time of the muscle car era. Muscle cars were not the big cars of the era. They were the midsized cars, available with the large powerful engines originally designed for the large cars of the time. Charles

blackphoenix

Hello to all. I am just getting into the swing of message boards & the full advantages of the forum & just wanted to say between white & black there is a thin gray line & I believe 3rd Generation F-Bodies fall right in the gray.
The way I see it is they were the muscle cars of their ERA, but at the same time I can still see them as being sports cars as well. As far as I am concerned any Firebird, Trans AM, or Camaro is a MUSCLE CAR. Always was & always will be. A pony car is a MUSTANG, that is why their symbol is a PONY.

My saying to the Muscle Cars:
I live forever because the spirit never dies
I will return in another body in another time
but it is me - The Muscle Car

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

Holy Batman, Not a tread revival! Winkipedia has a good discription of Pony Cars, and of Muscle Cars. All of the sporty compact cars of the 60's were considered Pony Cars, including the F-body. However in both descriptions as the years progressed, and Pony Cars become more powerful, they became more Muscle Car like. F-bodies and other Pony cars can be listed, and are listed as both Pony Cars and as Muscle Cars. Muscle Car lovers rejoice! Or maybe I told you something that you already knew, or maybe you don't care. Just some useless trivia from the old fart section.

Bs88ta

a 300z is definetly a sports car,a japenese sports car but one none the less.check your facts before you go calling cars rice burnners.for your info,300z's were 2 seaters and then had a 2+2 option which wasn't the most popular of options.f-bodys were called pony cars but were more commomnly refered to as sporty 2+2's.

Phishman92

The other day I tried to explain the difference between muscle cars, pony cars and sports cars to my girlfriend. It ended with a very blank stare and her saying "uhhh, I like corvettes"....clearly there's still work to do there but she's on the right track.

Aside from the size difference and noted relation to the mustang, the other major difference is HANDLING!!

Muscle cars were plain and simple 1/4 mile killing machines. Throw them a curve or a dead end road and it's game over.

Pony cars on the other hand, handled. While the 60's f-bodies were far from today's standards, they were still better than their muscle bound big brothers, thanks to the trans am series. By the 80's they were on par with German imports (great article on here about that) but still couldn't carve like true sports cars. For this reason they slot nicely in between the two.

I consider calling an Fbody a muscle car an insult, they can do much, much more. just my

Iroctopless

Kind'a like the "crossover" version of the performance car.

("Crossover" term borrowed from the SUV/car/minivan market)