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Old 07-05-2009, 09:55 PM   #1
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Watts link

Recently installed one & love the results.

Thought I would toss up a few pictures if anyone is interested.

Click the image to open in full size.







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Old 07-06-2009, 12:28 AM   #2
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Re: Watts link

Is that a direct bolt-it? It sure looks like it is.
Where did you get it, how much did it cost, and how much does it weigh?
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Old 07-06-2009, 06:41 PM   #3
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Re: Watts link

i plan on getting one after i get a new 10 bolt rear to replace the 9 bolt borg warner,

have you noticed any differnces in the way the car reacts? going over bumps/ road imperfections? i have heard that it makes the car tend to feel like it has a little rear steer, any comments?
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:29 PM   #4
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Re: Watts link

You can get them from Sam Strano.

They are basically a bolt in. The only mod is to grind off the brake line clips from the rear axle housing.
Takes a while to set it up exactly as you have to adjust the link bars on the car for equal angles & length, but I got it done in approx 3 hours.

Cost was $650, not sure of the weight. It added prob 15lb or so, but I would gladly add another 15 if I could get the same amount of improvement again.

It eliminates the jacking effect that the rear typically experiences in hard cornering. I daily drive my car.... no rattles, clunks or additional noise. The rear feels more stable with the watts link & I can push it harder before getting the rear loose.

I'm very glad I added this to my car.

Last edited by Lonnie P; 07-06-2009 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:32 PM   #5
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Re: Watts link

Very nice man, that was impressive to see to say the least! I wouldnt mind trying that out someday but I dont think I'll ever push my car that hard to really need it

I take it it comes with instructions on how to adjust it? I'd be curious to hear how it all works
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:40 PM   #6
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Re: Watts link

You saw it the day I put it on. Feel free to stop out again & I'll be glad to give you a ride. It still surprises me how well it handles. Instructions are well written in a nice book with color pictures etc.

How is the motor build coming?
Get my fuel system in yet?

Here is a picture of the car clean since you only seem to see it dirty.


Click the image to open in full size.

Give me a call sometime.
Lonnie

Last edited by Lonnie P; 07-06-2009 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:10 AM   #7
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Re: Watts link

Lonnie beautiful car.

So can you explain how the car drives differently with the watts link?

Would you say its useful for a street car?

Also, what wheels are those? HRE?
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:18 AM   #8
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Re: Watts link

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie P View Post
You can get them from Sam Strano.

They are basically a bolt in. The only mod is to grind off the brake line clips from the rear axle housing.
Takes a while to set it up exactly as you have to adjust the link bars on the car for equal angles & length, but I got it done in approx 3 hours.

Cost was $650, not sure of the weight. It added prob 15lb or so, but I would gladly add another 15 if I could get the same amount of improvement again.

It eliminates the jacking effect that the rear typically experiences in hard cornering. I daily drive my car.... no rattles, clunks or additional noise. The rear feels more stable with the watts link & I can push it harder before getting the rear loose.

I'm very glad I added this to my car.

Thanks for taking the time to share this with us. I didn't know there was a Watts link system available for thirdgens, but have been interested.

BTW, your car looks great!
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:41 AM   #9
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Re: Watts link

Car looks great. Didnt get the fuel system in yet. Finished my exhaust and now gonna put the tank back in and start connecting lines. I'll let you know how that goes this weekend
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:19 PM   #10
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Re: Watts link

If you like to corner hard, it is an excellent addition to a street car..... that is all mine is. I drive it every day & love to nail the turns.

Wheels are 17x9 American Racing. They do not fit without substantial modifications.

The watts link makes the car more consistent as it does not tend to pivot on the panhard bar. The pivot point is now in the center of the car. It now feels the same in a right & left turn. Rear body roll is substantially less.

Last edited by Lonnie P; 07-07-2009 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:55 PM   #11
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Re: Watts link

Wanted to say thanks for the pictures. Gives a much better idea of how it all fits together.

I too do not like the jacking when turning one way and the pull/roll in the other direction. A reinforced panhard with poly bushings helped. But did not eliminate the excess jacking.

Looks like it does a decent job of clearance for the exhaust, true?

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Old 07-07-2009, 08:17 PM   #12
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Re: Watts link

If this setup elminates the top bar above the panhard bar as well, then you should have plenty of clearance around the axle to run pipes over. Be realllly easy to run dual 3" pipes over the top. Single 4" fits fine but its abit snug.

I like to handle in my car too but i found my panhard bar setup so far to scare me enough as it is, let alone push it harder haha. Your talking about 4 wheels drifting, thats gonna make me **** my pants haha

When i get my car together I'm gonna stop back out.
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:57 PM   #13
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Re: Watts link

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie P View Post
The watts link makes the car more consistent as it does not tend to pivot on the panhard bar. The pivot point is now in the center of the car. It now feels the same in a right & left turn. Rear body roll is substantially less.
I think you are on Frrax.com aren't you?

Anyways, You are correct that the pivot point remains the same consistant left to right being that it remains centerd laterally and does not yaw the roll axis like the panhard will...

,,However, with roll center heights being set equal from the panhard to the watts, the car will roll more on the rear due to less yawing of the roll couple and less leverage holding down the inside rear chassis of a corner.

Panhard rear roll centers will migrate towards the greater spring rate favoring that side of the car (there are a few other factors here that influence roll like panhard length and lateral angle static and dynamic, but asside those for now). even if the rear spring rates are equal on both sides, you have one side increasing with lateral squat and the other side for the most part releasing and lessening due to body roll- as well as te compression velving dynamically increasing the outside overall spring rate as well as the rebound valving increasing the inside overall spring rate@ turn-in and corner exit. Thus, the rear roll center will cimgrate dynamicallyttowards the outside of the rear of the car (as said prior yawing the roll couple) and creating more inside rear chassis leverage wieght against roll.

the watts eliminates any yawing affect and causes more predictable rolling left and right, but does in fact reduce leverage and can through physics created more roll pound for pound. I still would choose the watts any day over the PH bar, its just that a prior balnced car will need to be re configured with spring rates, roll center height, shock valving and swaybar setting when the PH bar is removed in place of the watts setup.

As long as motion travel is reduced in this "reverse watts" design (I know, I have done alot of banter a few months back abvout this design on Frrax to Sam Strano' disliking, too bad, I merely state facts- with that said, as much as Steve spohn and I are good acquaintances on these boards and I taked with him many times aiding knowledge on designs and just giving "my opinion" sometimes to him privately on designs, I have even not been a yes man with him publicly on the front coilover setup not being very street friendly. Steve took my advice on the Torrington Bearings to aids in that problem but still does not make it completely street friendly,so.... ) this design does not retain the rear end in perfect center under the car in susbstantial rear suspension travel of massive body roll or the combination of the two. It is best to have the conventional Watts design (no reverse design) with the pviot being on the rear axle, not on the chassis side. The pivot on the axle like traditionally designed makes for the rear axle to articulat over road pefections freely as the body is in roll motion and keeps the rear centered- this reverse design does not.

Dean
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:02 PM   #14
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Re: Watts link

Also, this design is strickingly simular to the Mumford Link design I came up with back in about 2002 and posted on here finally in about 2006 because I mentioned something about the watts not working. Its why I engineered a Mumford with this same chassis brace and axle mounts.

I applaude someone for actually doing a rear chassis support setup like this in some fashion, I unfortunately never came up with the means of getting mine built. Just when I acquiared a milling machine and lathe I ended up in a nasty divorce and life has changed- I actualkly no longer have that 3rdgen I had then either- yes, she got it, but luckily my daughter is driving it so it wasn't sold (they do not live near me). Someday I will hopefully have access to that car to tinker with again, it was a fun car and I miss it.

Dean

I do not have the link, but if you search here under Mumford link it should come up. I had a different name then (actually many of them- long story)

Last edited by Vetruck; 07-08-2009 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:23 PM   #15
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Re: Watts link

Here's the link: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/su...d-linkage.html (Mumford Linkage)

This design is basically a "Reverse Mumford" which can suffer the same high travel affects as the watts, but the link arms can start more paralell to thee suspension atriculation of the rear axle since both sodes come off the bottom instead of the pivot coming off bottom and top on the watts. It can be set more paralell in static setup thus more appropriate. My higher bar setup is also utilized for another top secret setup to follow so that strainght flat chassis bar has mulitple uses.

Also note that this is designed for all out racecar sh*t, so don't give me any greif about dual exhaust routing, dump that out behind the front right tire under the car. Saves two things, polar weight, and prevents exhaust gas cooling routing it so far tot he rear.
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:51 PM   #16
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Re: Watts link

Must learn more about this. And to add another factor, how about Drifting. Ill let you guys discuss now.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:48 PM   #17
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Re: Watts link

Vetruck,
Yes I am on frrax & ls1tech.

I'm still getting into modifying the handling aspects of these cars. I'm a drag racer initially, but always loved corners. I originally had a 91 Formula that I liked the handling of, but eventually traded it in on a 95 Z28. The 95 never seemed to give me the confidence in corners that the 91 did. The 95 went through various stages of drag race mods from 13sec ET's stock, to 12's, 11's, then 10's & now finally 9's (for now) with a solid roller 383 stroker motor & a supercharger. Obviously it basically lost its ability to corner well with spool, 325/50 tires, coilovers & a 1.5" chromoly rear anti-sway bar. It is still a driver, but you have to know its limits.

Found another clean 91 & got back into corners. Stock it was fun, but I got the bug to improve it. Currently running Koni shocks, 800# fronts & 150# rears with 36/22 hollow bars.

On street tires, it was deadly with the factory 24 rear bar... saw more of the road from the side windows than the windshield.

The watts link is working well & it does act differently than the panhard for sure. I had an oversteer condition before, that was also brought under control. Lowering the rear roll center further, I can get it to understeer & also with significantly more body roll. I'm sure with more rear spring & bar, the lower roll center could also be an advantage. I may play with this next. I'm still running the roll center in the top 2 holes.... still unsure of which I like best with my current setup.

With the panhard, I could feel the car roll & rear inside tire start to unload & then it would oversteer. Obviously stiffening the rear shocks made it worse (they are at full soft). Going to a smaller rear bar, let it corner faster with less oversteer & handle better... even though it did not feel as stable or predictable. The watts link gave me the predictability I was lacking before.

I would like to have a phone conversation with you sometime if possible. If you could share some knowledge, I would like to participate. If you could PM me with a evening/weekend number & time, I'll be gald to call you. I'm a mechanical engineer, so the technology intrigues me, but as you know, results are sometimes different than the calculated theory.... I'm learning a lot, fortunately the fenders are still intact.

Last edited by Lonnie P; 07-08-2009 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 07-09-2009, 01:52 PM   #18
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Re: Watts link

Sure thing Lonnie, mail me a Sakeed123@aol.com and I will send you back my phone #. I will be down at the race shop this Saturday morning from about 10am to 2pm roughly and can chat while I am working on the Supertruck. I have to pull the shocks and send them out for revalving. I am working with a new guy trying to get him up to speed. ps- I like most of the world have free weekend minutes (best time to call me)

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Old 07-09-2009, 05:37 PM   #19
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Re: Watts link

Thanks for posting this Lonnie. I've been eyeballing the Watts Linkage from Strano for some time, and was really curious to know how it compared to having a panhard bar setup. Are the sway bars still used after installing this linkage? don't remember if I seen them on the pic at the Strano website.
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Old 07-09-2009, 06:17 PM   #20
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Re: Watts link

Yeah he has the sway bar on in that pic above. I wouldnt think this setup would eliminate the sway bars function
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:14 PM   #21
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Re: Watts link

Been gone a long time and thinking about putting my camaro back on the road. Of course that was reason enough to start imagineering my car before it's even running. Dean - its good to see you're still educating people here, missed you lectures (tirades?) sorry to hear about your news, and the loss of your camaro. Whats the super truck your working on now?
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:14 PM
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