Camatruder

OK, we have some idiotic laws here in Belgium. For exemple, we may not modify any stock steering, suspension, chassis, and brake parts nor may we add non-original parts. Our cars are to be inspected annually in an official inspection centre, mainly managed by green laymen (that hate american cars). Also they think a 2.8L is a big engine and set annual road taxes to about 1000 USD.
I just finished restoring a ’88 camaro during which i changed about all steering and suspension parts. I was very dissapointed with the first testdrive because of the car still surgeing on the road like an old drunk.After doing a search here i’m thinking it has all to do with body flex. When i found the car a couple of years ago, it had been sitting in a not so dry garage and during restoration i discovered that the car has been hit seriously in the right frontside. Not being an expert, i do think things have been repaired well but there is a large weld in the right strut tower. There are no cracks however around the steering box area. When turning sharply at low speed it feels like one wheel is turning and the other is still pointing straight ahead (which it isn’t offcourse). At higher speeds and driving straight ahead or turning mildly, it feels like there is too much play on the steering wheel, but there is no play at all. In general it feels like an axle or crossmember or so is forgotten to be bolted on tight.
Because of reglementations mentioned above i cannot change or add a lot, but here are some questions:

1. Do you think my diagnosis is correct? Is there something else that i’m overlooking.

2. What do you think i need the most : wonderbar or SFC’s?. Does it make sense to install the one and not the other? The wonderbar is easy to install (and remove for annual inspections).

3. Does it make sense to bolt in SFC’s, remove them each year for annual inspection and check and repair elonating holes during this operation.

4. I found 3 kinds of bolt-in-SFC’s : Alstons, Competition Engineering C3120 and JEGS 40053. Which ones are best? The JEGS look like being the most hidden ones and could maybe pass as a stock part. Is there anybody who has a clear pic of them installed on a 3th gen? (I found pics of the other 2 here and elsewhere on the web).

5. If I could obtain a offical lettre (or e-mail) from a authorized GM-member stating this modification is approved and does not void the “certificate of conformity” I could try and negociate with the inspection angency. Anybody who knows such a person?

6. Are there other things I can do to improve handling. Is a strut brace in the engine bay helpfull if you already installed a wonderbar?

Thanks for reading and/or replying.
Rik.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

What you describe is not typical for these cars when in good shape. I highly doubt SFC, wonderbar, or STB will fix you problem. All of these parts are great, but they don't fix the problem you describe.

It sounds like you perhaps you have a bent unibody from the accident or you have some steering and/or parts messed up.

Can you post as many pictures as possible of the steering and suspension?

Camatruder

I'll try to post some pics this weekend. But here are the steering and suspension parts that are new : center links, power steering pump and hoses, tie rods, adjusting sleeves, ball joints, springs, shock absorbers, strut assembly's, stab. bar bushings, strut mounts.

85irocinjected

A bad idler arm could also make the steering feel pretty sloppy. Crawl under the car and check ALL mounting bolts.. the bolts for k-member, front and rear control arms, PHB, TA, engine mounts, tranny & x-member mounts/bolts.

When I picked up my most recent 3rd gen EVERY bolt in the rear was hand threaded on and not tightened at all and all the bushings and steering components where shot. The car felt like it was going to come apart on the road. (drove it home before I knew everything was loose) After just tightening everything it felt 100% better but after replacing all the bushings and steering components it now feels like a new car again.

Camatruder

Well I really removed every part that can be removed on the car, treated for rust where nessecary, repainted or powder coated where possible and installed every part myself. I'm pretty sure everything is tight.
What do you mean by PHB and TA ?
I have a rare (weird looking) transmission mount but i think it's still ok. It does not come apart when pushed over with a pry bar.
What should i look for in a possible bad idler arm? Play i guess?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

No frame repair shops over there that could put it on a frame aligment rack and see if the chassis is straight and aligned?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

First off, I am not sure what the problem with the car is. Your description is a little vague. If there is indeed a problem with the steering, subframe connectors are not going to fix it. Whatever the problem is was not part of the design. When properly maintained these cars drive fine, no different than any other car.

Second off, how do they know what came on the car as a factory part or not? The wonder bar is a factory part, different models got different bracing, and generally speaking, I don't see any way for them to be able to tell the difference. If you want to install aftermarket suspension parts I would suggest just painting them black along with the surrounding area and claim the car and parts are stock. A box section subframe connector can easily look like it was a factory part.

As an aside, I can completely understand your situation. I recently moved just a ways south of you (Sicily) and it seems like taxes and over regulation are an issue throughout the EU. I had to have my car "inspected" by some idiots in order to get my registration and they attempted to crush my fenders with their lift. The italian government wanted to know how much displacement and horsepower the engine had, and they even wanted to know whether or not it had a radio - all for tax purposes. The taxes are utterly ridiculous, for my secondary car, a 93 318is, I paid almost 400 euro in taxes for a car that cost me 2200 euro. And I don't know where that money goes because any road other than highway is terrible.
I had a person ask me how many CCs my engine was and when I told them 5000 they almost had a heart attack, like I had installed an engine from a container ship in my car. Meanwhile they talk about my 318is like it is a fast gas guzzling sports car (haha).

Anyway, if you could describe your problem a little better I'm sure we can find a solution for you.
Have you checked for actual play in the steering components? For example, with the key in but the car off does the steering wheel have any play?
For the problem you describe with the slow speed turning, this might just be a somewhat normal problem caused by suspension geometry (anti ackerman)

What is your alignment set to? Improper alignment can cause a host of issues in the way the car feels.

Camatruder

I'm struggling a bit to describe everything in english. Aren't there any test I can do and then try to describe it better. I don't think the problem is in the steering. There is no play in any steering part what so ever. Offcourse the problems are best noticed while turning.

Indeed, for bolted on parts they cannot always tell if it's a stock part or not. I'm afread that for welded part like SFC's they will see the difference between a robot weld and a weld made by a technician.

I had the car aligned in a shop as close as possible to the settings i found here in a tech article. If I remember correctly he said caster was +4.4°, camber was -0.30° and toe in was +1,2 mm ( + 0.047 inches). I did replace the strut mounts after that but i drawed the mount on the tower first so i don't think i messed the alignment up.
It still probably is a good idea to take to a frame repair shop and get a frame check. And the steering alinment guy did not give any paper with results, and didn't look very confident so i'll take it to another shop.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Well I must say your is much better than my Dutch or French.
Can you take pictures of the damage that was repaired and of your suspension? Maybe there is something we can spot.

As for the technicians spotting the welds, one possible solution to that is to spray rubberized undercoating or bed liner coating on the bottom of the car. This will make the welds hard to see if they are visible at all. I must reiterate that subframe connectors are not going to solve an actual problem with your steering and tracking.

87ohcamaro

Dumb question... Is the rear end aligned right?

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

If you put on a factory wonder bar & not an aftermarket one, they shouldn't think twice about it since it is a factory part.

For SFCs, you could fab up something like what the convertibles got. Sheetmetal reinforcements.....

Then there was the big X-brace that the 2-seater conversion 3rd gens got in 82-84. Went under the driveshaft & exhaust. Not exactly a standard factory appearing part, but was still a "factory" part & shouldn't be questioned. You could even provide pictures to show that it "was a factory part....Just not factory on that exact car, but they shouldn't question it with the pics you could provide. ;P

ol' paddy

damn, and i thought california was bad for regulations.

i'll definitely agree that it sounds like a more serious problem than just adding some chassis stiffeners.

as for the inspections just add whatever parts you want and if they question it just say its stock or "a factory option" i doubt they have seen many thirdgens to know any better.

Camatruder

I'm really not a mecanic. In fact i'm an inspector myself but my domain is electrical installations (mostly in explosive environments). Here also we sink in new and absurd reglementations coming from this united Europe. They have nothing to do with safety anymore but more with job creations. Offcourse that's only true for big companies but on the other hand the're killing small family businesses. Or maybe that's just the intention (globalisation wright?).
I admit i'm a rookie. Before this i didn't even change the oil myself, so i may have made some mistakes along the way. It was a lifelong dream to own an american can and even better to restore one myself. Well you know, you really only own a car if you've rebuilt it yourself.
The biggest mistake was probably to think the accident damage was repaired well because of our strict inspections. But maybe it was hit after the last inspection and was never inspected again. Besides they don't really check body or wheel alignment anyway. I looked up some before-pics and now they don't look so good at all.
Here you can see some cracks.

Here is one after doing some sanding.

I used the engine bay to practise my tin and lead skills here (no bondo on my car) and painted it with epoxy primer, base coat and clear coat.


I also tried to measure up the body myself by measuring the distance between the front and rear wheels both straight ad crossed. The results were a bit shocking. I think the distance between the left wheels should equal the distance between the right wheels, but there's a difference of 1,6 cm (0.63 inches). I also think the distance between the right rear wheel and the left front wheel should equal the distance between the left rear wheel and the front right wheel, but there's a differance of 2,4 cm (0.95 inches). I'm guessing that's not good. So i'll take it to a body repair shop before trowing (more) parts at it.

@87ohcamaro : Does a rear end need alignment? What is there to adjust?

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

The stock rear is not adjustable. You can buy aftermarket parts to make it adjustable, but even those won't adjust that far. Besides....Something is bent & needs to be fixed. Probably shoulda gotten everything straight before painting it, because there is a chance that some of the new paint will get messed up after straightening the chassis back out.

zenish

i once had a car that the alinement was off.my tires were worn by the bad alinement.i had the car alined but the car still wandered.i took it back to the shop.they blamed the wandering on the worn tires.i didn't believe them but replaced the worn tires.it fixed the wandering.
id talk to the place that inspects your car about adding subframe connecters.they are a safety improvement,not a performance modification.i can't see why they wouldn't be allowed

Camatruder

Visted a local repair shop today that is specialised in repairing car crash damage (offcourse of european and rice cars)
He told me that :
1) To do a good job he needs a naked frame (without engine, A-arms,crossmember,...). It's not a good idea to strip the car at home and then transport it because this causes extra pressure on the frame.
2) He's got to find the "calibers" for this type of car. These are some kind of reference points that he needs on his frame alignment rack and will fit the frames holes if it's in line. If they don't fit, these caliber show were the frame is out of line. He thinks it would be near impossible to find those caliber in Belgium because these cars (and there service parts) were never officially distributed here.
3) Should he find them, i could be looking at a 1000 euro or so.

Is he making any sense?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

sort of

yes, there are body reference measurements, but they reference off of body, k-memember and suspension points, so it doesn't make any sense to do it completely disassembled unless you only want to do part of the job. Also, removing major structural members before transporting can lead to a more flexible chassis which might bend more easily, but I doubt that it is really a problem.

The reference measurements were available in the early 3rd gen shop manuals (I know my '83 manual had them), but I don't know if they're available in the later ones.

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

I dunno if these will help any:

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

That's exactly where I'd start....it can then be straightened if it's slightly out. By the welds in the shock tower area, it sounds as if the car was in a collision at one point.

I'm not sure how much the car needs to be stripped to straighten it out, but it sounds like it may need checked. Either you need to get it done or count your losses right now....

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Try these

Camatruder

Thanks guys, I'll start measuring right away.