MeanYellowZ

k...I'm tired hear, so my writing may be poor

first time firing 355 today, pulled motor out of one car, changed the heads, cam and other small things, left basic nice rebuilt shortblock alone.

Ran into many problems getting it to run at all today but finally got it running right and breaking in the cam. Within minutes the pass side header was glowing red real well. Shut it off and started looking. Pretty obviously have a lean condition. Carb we know should be fine, but we switched anyway, still the same. Mostly pass side header that does it, usually turning red within 1 minute of running at 2200 or so rpm.

any suggestions here??? im guessing i have to pull the intake off and start looking...thinking maybe the heads have been milled or something, and the intake surface is off. I'm pretty sure the timing is now pretty darn close and the thing sounds like its running pretty good...just real hot--real fast.

gimme some ideas...I'm fresh out..

thanks a lot

Randy

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Currently own: 2001 Xtreme, 85 IROC, 87 S10
pics of my old 86Z:
Camaro1 Camaro2 Engine
More at: My Directory
Email: MeanYellowZ@hotmail.com Aol/IM: RCY1980

SteveSpohn

Your timing is off. Check your timing, make sure the dampener was installed correctly, if that all checks out re-check your cam install.

Guarantee it's a timing issue. Good luck.

Steve

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Spohn Performance: F-Body Chassis/Suspension Specialists

MeanYellowZ

im real sure the timing is close, where its at now it fires almost instantly and sounds real good....at first that was the trouble because the balancer is the style which uses the pointer tacked to the timing cover, while we had a side mounted pointer...we retarded the timing while its running to the point where it almost doesnt want to run anymore and it still glows...instantly...i had the whole motor apart and am sure the cam is installed straight up and is a Crane which i am pretty sure is fine...

BTW, its a carb 355 with performer RPM and 66 327 vette 64cc heads

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Currently own: 2001 Xtreme, 85 IROC, 87 S10
pics of my old 86Z:
Camaro1 Camaro2 Engine
More at: My Directory
Email: MeanYellowZ@hotmail.com Aol/IM: RCY1980

burnoutrpm

its running lean.....try rejetting your carb. and yes check the timing again. have you drove the car in towbn or at all down the road? just because it sound and runs to 2200 rpm fine doesnt mean crap......just try screwing with the carb i guarantee its running lean,and the timing is probably still off its a new engine and its going to be touchy for quite a while untilll everything is just right (trust me im still tuning mine its got about 2500 miles on it now, and just yesterday it let me know it was fully broke in it started runnning very smoooth and the idle dropped. just take your time and be patinet and ask your buddies for alll the help you can its lean......VERY lean.

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89 firebird formula


360 10:1compression (350 .060 over)/fully balnced and blueprinted
comp cams xe262 cam
performer rpm intake/port matched to heads
#1405edlebrock 600
sportsman 2 heads 64cc 2.02/1.60 valves 200cc intake runner/cnc pocket ported
msd 6al/msd8.5 super condutor wires
h.e.i. proform 50,000 volt vac. advance ditributor
700r-4 with 3.08 first gear and 3.23 posi 7 5/8 rear end.
b trans shift kit(will kill shifts...suck dong!!)
shorty heddman hedders with custom 3" pipe y-pipe back(no damn cat!) with 40 series flowmaster!
griffin daul1" core rad.cutom fabrication to fit(but no cutting )


future mods: 406 roller REALLY REALLY REALLY RADICAL!!!!!

MeanYellowZ

I know all about tuning engines and the first large amount of miles working out bugs. The carb I put on it first I know to be fine, but even if it wasn't I switched the carb off of another unning car onto it with no difference...its not carb...I really feel there is a bad vacuum leak. Lean is one thing..but instantly boiling water on the intake and bright red headers are REALLY lean.

Again, I feel the timing is very close if not perfect and I have never had the timing being off (even by a lot) make the engine run THIS hot instantly

Chvywolf

It will get that hot if it's running 180 out. I've done this to my car twice (two seperate occasions) and the headers got hot enough to light a cigarett off of. (i did it both times) Check your timing and make sure it's firing on the right stroke. You may not want to hear this again, but it can only be one of the two things already mentioned, lean carb or 180 out. Hope this helps.

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"Beware the angered cub. it may become a Wolf...Enjoy the hunt."

89 RS Conv

brharris27370

Just went through that mess with wifes car. Its definitely the timing. I thought my timing was really close. Went to break in the cam and 5 minutes the exhaust was glowing red clear to the cat. Local mechanic swore it was the timing so we kept adjusting and finally hit it. Turned out my new damper mark was wrong. Car runs fine now though.

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91 Camaro RS 5.0L Black Convertible 700R4
** Added so far **
*GM Wonderbar
*Alston SFC's
*Turbo City Inj Spacer
*Dual Snorkel Air Filter
*March Performance Pulleys
*GM 3.42 Gears with OEM Zexel
*Edelbrock headers
*3" High Flow Cat
*3" Dynomax Exhaust
*Walbro 255 lph Fuel Pump

MeanYellowZ

well, i know its not the carb since i switched them and i know both carbs are fine. The timing is at around 4-6 base so it should be MORE than okay. Noone else thinks the intake gasket could have a bad leak? How bout the fact that its only really doin it on the pass side header???

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Currently own: 2001 Xtreme, 85 IROC, 87 S10
pics of my old 86Z:
Camaro1 Camaro2 Engine
More at: My Directory
Email: MeanYellowZ@hotmail.com Aol/IM: RCY1980

kevinc

Severely retarded timing will result in still-combusting mix being blown out the exhaust valve...causing the header primaries to glow.

Balancers have been known to have incorrect timing index marks. Hit it with the timing light and all looks well, but in reality you're way off.

-Kevin

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1982 Z-28

See http://www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=276 for details

RB83L69

kevinc is right, your timing is extremely retarded. The reason it backfires through the carb when you advance it is because you have it in one tooth off in the CCW direction, which makes the rotor to be closer to the cylinder one position ahead of the right one in the firing order when you crank the body around in the advvance direction, thereby lighting off the one whose intake valve is still open. Take your dist out and put it back in one tooth ahead (CW) of where it is now, and all should be well.

He also makes a good point about balancers and marks. Personally, I don't ever even bother with some unreliable mark when setting timing; I adjust the timing to where the engine runs right.

"Mark? We don't need no steeenking mark!!"

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports

MeanYellowZ

the timing is fine guys....i dont use marks either, but i have checked it that way just to make sure....timed by ear, this thing fires right up.....instantly...and sounds real good....i have the timing set fine, all I was saying is that i have retarded the timing with the engine running to the point where it almost does not want to run its so retarded and the header is still red. there's no tooth off here, i just dropped the dist in and made it fire number 1 when it needed to be fired...its fine...and as I said even after looking at it on a light where i have it set, it appears to be at around 8BTDC...not enough for ultimate peroformance, yet its should run fine at that..and if you ask me SURELY not enough to turn the headers red,

Again..the thing sounds and runs excellent, just turning the headers red

CSkipEaston

I know you say you have checked everything several times, but I will have to support the other guys who suggest retarded timing.

I ran into exactly the same situation after I did a complete rebuild and cam change on my 305.

After I advanced the timing, the red hot headers went back to normal silver.

If for no other reason other than to test their theory, advance the timing more to see what happens.

Also, are you sure you installed your timing chain and gears correctly?

branz28

I'm not an expert nor am i going to act like i am. But the one side glowing is odd. Maybe check the bolts that hold the manifold down and make sure they are tight? Sounds like to me alot of air is slipping into that side and not the other. Like i said, i'm not an expert so i might be way off.

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89 IROC-Z 350 TPI

-Flowmaster Catback
-Performance Resource Chip
-700R4 (Rebuilt) Too much done to actually list
-K&N Airfilters
-Ported Plenum
-2.77 Gears (not much to brag about but eh, its there)
-MSD 8.5 mm plug wires
-Gutted cat
-!AIR
-Gutted Air Boxes

Bort62

Timing Timing Timing.


Too Much retard, and it will seem to be running fine, and evendriveable.

Mine did this when I put it back in Got 1/2 mile out on a test drive, and Glowing manifold On the one side.


Advance the damn timing



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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver 14.82 @ 91.1
Reader's ride -> My Ride

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

ploegi

If you suspect a manifold leak, unplug the pcv valve from the valve cover, and put your hand over the hole, you should feel a SLIGHT vacuum, if it tries to drag you in, you have a leak........

Biochem

What could advancing your timing hurt and test out the advice of most of those in this thread? If it works, great, if it doesn't then you can inform us that it may not be a timing issue. Tuning it by ear may not be as accurate as you hope.

Second issue, what would be the effect if the cam was actually a tooth off on the timing chain?

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1984 z28 w/ a 357 cu in. monster engine which is looking like the posterchild for Edelbrock with the exception of the Holley 750vac... all the suspension stuff... 9-bolt posi disk is in...

-=ICON Motorsports=-

MeanYellowZ

well....I ended up switching the spark plugs because i had failed to think about the fact that the old heads (66 327) needed the older style plug with a washer, and I did advance the timing a little, because after checking it again, it was very close, and now it seems better...It was running real hot, but now it seems to be cooling off a little and hopefully was just hot because of break in.

Ill keep ya posted

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Currently own: 2001 Xtreme, 85 IROC, 87 S10
pics of my old 86Z:
Camaro1 Camaro2 Engine
More at: My Directory
Email: MeanYellowZ@hotmail.com Aol/IM: RCY1980

AlkyIROC

Since you don't think it's timing the look at all the vacuum ports. The easiest one to miss is the one for the power brake booster.

Use an unlit propane torch and move it around the intake manifold with the engine running. If there's a vacuum leak then it will suck in the propane and increase the engine rpm. You can connect a rubber hose onto the torch tube for better accuracy. Just take the torch head off the tube.

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Follow my racing progress on Stephen's racing page
and check out the race car

87 IROC-Z SuperPro ET Bracket Race Car
461 naturally aspirated Big Block

Best ET on a time slip: 11.242 altitude corrected to 10.89
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Best 60 foot: 1.546

Racing at 3500 feet elevation but most race days it's over 5000 feet density altitude!
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87 IROC bracket car, 91 454SS daily driver, 95 Homebuilt Harley

Todd91SS

It is 100% completely normal for headers to be pink during cam break in periods. Think about what is going on. First of all, engines will always run hotter during initial break in. Second, break in is the only time your car will run at 2000+ rpm's for 15 minutes continuous in an enclosed space (usually a garage) with no airflow. What would you expect? True, retarded timing can have that same effect, but when you start up your engine for the first time, the first thing you should be reaching for is a timing light and making sure that your timing is somewhat reasonable. So that rarely is what is actually happening. Every motor we've built with a cam that required break in, has made the primaries glow pink. Then after that, they won't do it anymore.

Look through articles in past Hod Rod or GM High tech about the subject. They'll say the same. The only difference, is that they have actually built motors. ;-)

Congrats on getting the new motor fired up!

burnoutrpm

ok i might not agree completely with all here but, this guy mentioned something noone else did is the chain right on 0 degrees? if not if its 4 before or 4 advacned then you'll get the fun of dropping the greater part of the enige's front face and setting the chain "strit up". this factor could DEFINITLEY be a good reson for a hot header


------------------
89 firebird formula


360 10:1compression (350 .060 over)/fully balnced and blueprinted
comp cams xe262 cam
performer rpm intake/port matched to heads
#1405edlebrock 600
sportsman 2 heads 64cc 2.02/1.60 valves 200cc intake runner/cnc pocket ported
msd 6al/msd8.5 super condutor wires
h.e.i. proform 50,000 volt vac. advance ditributor
700r-4 with 3.08 first gear and 3.23 posi 7 5/8 rear end.
b trans shift kit(will kill shifts...suck dong!!)
shorty heddman hedders with custom 3" pipe y-pipe back(no damn cat!) with 40 series flowmaster!
griffin daul1" core rad.cutom fabrication to fit(but no cutting )


future mods: 406 roller REALLY REALLY REALLY RADICAL!!!!!.with lots of NOS