oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

Help! my 305 TA got hydro locked because I've got the cowl induction flap wired open and It rained a lot last night. I guess water got in through the flap and trickled into the carb and then the intake manifold.

Unaware of this, I tried to start the car. It turned over a few times and then heard a big Kathunk as the engine stopped cold. Tried again, same thing. At this point I figured it was hydro locked and didn't try to turn it over again.

Removed plugs and turned engine over by hand using socket wrench on crank pulley. Turned over fine, no weird noises, didn't feel any different than when I've turned it over by hand in the past.

Next, with plugs still removed, turned engine over using starter. Of course it turned over real fast. No strange clanking, or rattling noises either. Did this a few times to get all the water out.

Then I used a syringe to squirt a table spoon of oil into each plug hole, and turned the engine over again a few times with the starter to get some oil onto the rings.

Installed plugs, and tried to start engine. It cranked over twice before stopping. Almost like there was an obstruction in one of the pistons. Tried a few times, no go.

Removed plugs and engine turned over with the starter. Once again turned over freely. By this time all the cranking had pretty much killed the battery. So i installed a new battery. Same thing, although it turned over a little faster with the fresh battery.

Did a compression test:

Cylinder # 1 85
Cylinder # 2 90
Cylinder # 3 130
Cylinder # 4 60
Cylinder # 5 95
Cylinder # 6 80
Cylinder # 7 95
Cylinder # 8 100

Looks like #3 is real high and and number 4 is low.

I'm confused as to why the engine would turn over freely with no plugs but wouldn't turnover once the plugs are in. I might have bent some rods when I first cranked the motor over and hydro locked it, but at that point I only tried to crank it twice before I realized something was wrong and stopped.

I don't think I broke or bent any rods as I would have heard rattles or knocks while turning the engine over w/o plugs. But it just doesn't want to turn over once the plugs are in. Any ideas?

KnightmareCS

iTrader: (7)

Did you check the condition of the oil? Need details there.

rgarcia63

You have a timing problem.

KnightmareCS

iTrader: (7)

If it's something related to timing, check the distributor. If you're saying it rained a lot, water might have poured all over the dist. Take that apart and check for moisture and anything that doesn't look right.

AlkyIROC

Any damage to the plugs?

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the replys guys.

Timing: engine ran fine before all this happened, distributor was not rotated at all.

Distributor: Is a new (less than 1000 Miles) Mallory vacuum advance unit. Water always pours all over it from the hood when ever I've opened the hood during rain in the past. Seems to be a pretty water tight part. I had it taken apart a week ago to adjust the vacuum advance and there was absolutely no signs of water damage. Again this part gets routinely water poured over it whenever the hood is opened in wet weather.

Oil: Is full, hard to tell from looking at the dipstick, but the color of the oil on it looks normal with no traces of water.

Spark Plugs: Are new, less than 1000 miles. 3 out of 8 were water logged when I pulled them. They had a big bubble of water in the gap between the tip and electrode. I cleaned them up but have not replaced them. None of the plugs had any signs of physical damage, like hitting a piston.

An update on the compression test: The cylinder that was lowest on compression, #4 now reads about the same as
the others at about 90. This was after I let it sit for a few hours after pouring a table spoon of motor oil into it. Previously it was at 60. hmmm strange. I got some marvel mystery oil and poured a bit into each cylinder. Will let everything sit over night.

Even with bad plugs, water contaminated oil, and timing that's off, the engine should still crank over all day with the plugs installed right? It probably would not start but should still be able to turn over. I'm confused as to why it can only turn over when the plugs are pulled. Like I said it almost feels like a battery issue so I got a new one. The new battery helped a little bit but not much. Anyway I've got the new battery on charge overnight just to rule that out.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You havent tried to turn it over by hand with the plugs in? You may want to get a special adapter for the crank pulley to make sure you dont shear a bolt. It will be tough to turn, but not THAT tough. But if it's locked in place I could see someone pushing and pushing and stripping the crank bolt.

rgarcia63

Given that it cranks with no plugs and one plug at a time points to a restriction in the exhaust system.
I would first add one spark plug at a time until it stops turning, if you've already done that then that leaves the exhaust system.

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

A restriction in the exhaust system is an interesting thought. It ran fine before all this happened, so do you mean that a plug of water might be blocking a critical part of the exhaust system? The entire exhaust was replaced 3 months ago, headers, Y pipe, high flow cat, Intermediate Pipe. The only thing that wasn't replaced was the flow master muffler. Any how, I'll try as suggested by installing one plug at a time till it stops turning over.

Update on the oil: Drained old oil and replaced with new oil and filter. Old oil had just a touch of moisture/milkiness to it.

Removed Distributor cap, everything was dry inside. Sprayed WD-40 into cylinders to displace any residual moisture and installed new plugs. Still no difference. It turns over ok without plugs, but as soon as they go in, it will only turn over once before stoping. I'm stumped

hartman

iTrader: (6)

does it turn over with plugs in and wires not hooked up?

KnightmareCS

iTrader: (7)

Try a pop-start maybe?
Started a Mazda MX6 that way that had a not-known-at-the-time bent connecting rod on cyl 1. Oh the memories...
And um, are you sure the starter is good?

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

I did try to start it with the plugs in and wires not connected. Did not make a difference.

It's an automatic so I can't pop start it.

Update on the exhaust restriction idea: I unbolted the headers from the block to rule that out. Nada. Still turned over just once before stopping.

At this point, I'm beginning to wonder my self if it's a bad starter. The battery is new and fully charged so maybe the starter just does not have enough oomph left to turn the engine when the plugs are in. It doesn't make sense though because I thought bad starters just sit there clicking away, this one turns the engine over at a good speed if plugs are out. Are they hard to switch out?

Also this just came to mind, while doing the compression tests, with the hose plugged into one piston and no plugs in the other 7, the motor was tough to turnover. It would turn over once, the gauge needle would move a bit and then it would stop turning. I cranked it again and the needle move up some more before the engine quit turning again. Did this until the gauge needle stopped moving. So even during the compression test the engine would rotate just once before stopping. Does this sound like a weak starter, although I did have a weak battery at the time.

Camaro305SB

thats pretty low compression - do a cylinder leakage test.

rgarcia63

You last post on what was going on during the compression test does shed some light. A compression test for me requires a minimum of 7 fast continuous complete turns.
Opening up the headers was a good idea.
Alas eliminating the starter points to the rotating assembly (like the crankshaft bearings) however difficult that is to accept.
You might think this is a stupid question so just humor me - is the distributor turning when you crank the engine?

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

Rgarcia63, I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I will definitely check to see if the distributor is turning with the engine first thing tomorrow and report back!

rgarcia63

The compression results are not good, engine should turn over fairly fast with all but one plug installed. I may be reaching here in thinking that the timing chain may have skipped, or broken. Verifying that the distributor is turning, or checking for spark is easier than pulling a valve cover to see if the valves are moving.

I'm looking for one, or a combination of things that would keep the engine from rotating e.g.
a condition not allowing the compressed air to escape at the proper time, or
abnormal friction in the rotating assembly.
If the valve train is turning verifying base timing.

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

Starter motor is cracked, engine was never hydro locked to begin with!!!!

So after staring at the air cleaner and hood scoop induction system, I came to the conclusion that if water were to enter the carb then the entire air cleaner would have to fill with water until the level was high enough to spill over the top of the carb barrels and then down into them.

Both the inside of the air cleaner and the air filter were dry as a bone. The only part of the cleaner that was wet was the top of the lid, and that part always gets wet when it rains because the hood scoop seal is bad and leaks directly onto it. There is no way for that water to get into the carb. Not sure why I did not realize this sooner

So at this point my only problem is an engine that barely turns over. Pulled the starter motor out. That bastard was cracked in the nose! See the pictures I attached. That explains the clanging noise I heard when I first cranked the engine and thought it was hydro locked.

What probably happened was I pumped the gas a little too much and flooded the engine. The 27 year old starter couldn't tolerate the extra pressure and sacrificed it self to save the con-rods. It cracked and the engine stopped dead.

When I pulled the plugs, what I thought was water on them was just fuel from a flooded engine. I also mistook the fuel that sprayed out of the plug holes for water.

This also explains the weak compression results. The starter did not have enough juice in it to crank the motor fast enough. I guess the crack didn't prevent the starter from turning under a light load condition whith no plugs, but the plugs installed was too much force for the failed starter to overcome.

The starter was a pain to remove. I ended up having to remove the passenger side header and lifted it out from the top. While removing the starter I noticed oil lines going from the radiator to the transmission. I thought only 5.7 engines had transmission oil coolers???

The distributor rotor does rotate with the engine like normal.

God, I hope I'm right about all this, I really can't afford to rebuild this motor.

rgarcia63

I'm glad you found the problem, I thought you had checked the starter, so I assumed it was something else.
The kicker is why did the starter crack at the nose?
Seems like it will start up once the starter is replaced.

jwande

That is a replacement starter. The nose is more shiny than the original starter on the car. When they rebuild the starters, they used a different alloy if the old one is damaged. You can tell the machining is cleaner than originally cast as well (I spent many years running a parts store, so I can spot them quickly.)

The nose will crack for several reasons. If a bearing goes haywire that holds the armature in place, physical impact from something, defects in the metal, or if the starter worked loose and was put in a bind.

My guess is that the starter was loose.

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, the bolts holding it on were extremely loose. I bought a replacement but am not sure how many shims to use

jwande

You may not need shims. You should be able to gauge the alignment of the armature gear to the flywheel pretty well. If you hear grinding, then try to determine the minimum number of shims required to get the gear to mate to the flywheel in the middle.

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

I got the new starter installed today. I didn't need any shims. The engine turns over just fine now with the plugs installed. I didn't actually start it because the headers are still disconnected, but I'm sure it won't be a problem.

The low compression cylinder, #4 now reads a healthy 185 PSI with the new starter.
Problem solved!

Just researching stuff, I learned a LOT about hydro locked engines from this experience even though that wasn't my issue. Don't ever attempt to start a suspected hydro locked engine even if the suspicion is very slight. Pull the plugs first! If you drive through a puddle and the car dies, DO NOT try to restart it. Bite the bullet and pay the tow fine.

I guess the lessons are that things aren't always what they seem and check the obvious stuff first, like starters.

Thanks everyone for your input and advice!!