Ryan3834me

Ok OHV V8 gurus. I have a ticking when hot. Any ideas? I thought for sure valve train. Maybe a sticking lifter. Below are two links. Note night is engine warm (vid 1). Engine cold -day (vid 2). More audio than vid.

Vid 1:
.

Vid 2:

Suggestions so far are exhaust leak. Note light clacking.

Fixes this week, new United Distributor, fuel pump relay (+ harness), plug wires, new cruise switch, plug wires, mended O2 and temp gauge leads.

Idle in prom is set to 800. I don't recall temp closed loop occurs with custom prom. I'll have to look into it. I have 3-wire O2 installed, and I'm running rich. AFPR bolt adustment bolt backed out finger loose, no apparent vacuum leaks.

Motor is a 383, machined stock 350 L98 heads, ZZ4 cam, 1.5 stamped rockers. Timing is set at 10 deg base. 30lb SVO injectors.

I thought for sure, valve train clack, so spent the night looking up options. In the morning, I started it cold, sound wasn't noticeable (vid 2). I added some Lucas Oil stabilizer. Drive to beach, sound came back when warm. I thought rich condition may have thinned oil. Not sure. As you can see in cold vid, lots of fun stuff in top of my pass side valve cover. . I can remove it, just annoying.

I'm thinking sticking lifter (warm?). Or loose exhaust manifold bolt!? Ugh!

I don't see any smoke or residue. Any ideas!? I thought I would see it sinceim still rich. Prom isn't perfect yet.

Ryan3834me

Started car today. Sounded great. New ignition system working great, sounds healthy, nice throttle response. Then it warns up. Clacking returns. I use stethoscope and pass side valve cover is noticeably louder than drivers side.

I couldn't detect an exhaust leak, nor any noise on exhaust manifold that didn't seem to be a transmission of sound from valve train. Ugh! But it's quiet cold (not yet checked cold with stethoscope). Any thoughts?

Ryan3834me

bump

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

Sounds just like rocker arms not adjusted properly. Have you removed the valve covers and tried to adjust them while it was running.. With the engine running, losen the nut, until it starts to clatter, then tighten the nut until it stops , then slowly give it 1/4 to 1/2 turn on each one.. You could have a weak lifter which might be the problem..

Ryan3834me

It was a recent build. The machine shop assembled the long block. My old 350 lifters were reused, perhaps a mistake. It's hydraulic roller lifter. ZZ4 cam. I put in a new distributor and coil this week. Had timing at 10, now it's at 6 advance. With ESC wire unhooked.

Prior to putting car in storage for two years I experienced some bent pushrods 2-3 total on one side of motor. This wore down the pushrods slots in the L98 heads. I replaced all 8 on drivers side with stamped self aligning ones. Non-self aligning seem like a bad idea with those pushrods slots. Slight bend and rocker OS free to start slapping anything. I did not do the pass side yet with SA rockers. I will ASAP. I suspect I may have a cracked flywheel, and need to man up and replace the plugs. Even tho they are under 8000 mi, they may be fouled.

I've been watching a lot of YouTube. . My problem

I'm hoping removal of the air pump parts is easier than it looks. I'm not sure if I shouldn't hollow out the pump and cap the exhaust manifolds. The air delete pulley seems pricey.

Thank you very much for your feedback!


The noise occurs very pronounced when warm, not so much cold. I do have a slight shake which feels like a misfire.

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

After hearing the video and watching your last post. I have a couple of questions, How did you bend last pushrods? Why did you only replace 8 pushrods and not 16 so they would all be a matching set, how did you adjust the rockers?

I would never ever reuse lifters. That is my preference though. If you bent pushrods there is a chance that you also destroyed a lifter. Were the rockers adjusted too tight, is they how they got bent? I would order a new set of hydraulic quality lifters and 16 matching rods, let-em sit in oil for a few days, install them and readjust your rockers.. I bet that will fix the problem.. Right now you are asking for trouble by not fixing this.. If I didn't life 3 hours north of you, I would give you a hand and get it done.

Ryan3834me

I planned to do both sides. But it sounded healthy doing just the drivers side, and there was a bunch of AIR pump stuff in the way of the other side.

I did not perform initial assembly and adjustment. The machine shop did. I only reved on the engine hard, after say 1200 miles break-in.

The rockers on drivers side were swung slightly away from the valve stems on a few cyls. I purchased box of sealed power pushrods, mind you they were slightly different in length, maybe .10 max (measured 0.060), shorter I believe, than machine shop assembly. I was skittish at disturbing the emission piping over the pass side at the time, and it did not sound abnormal.

I bent them likely taking 2nd gear far out, and not watching tach. I think my rev limiter in prom is 6000. Since making repair to drivers side, I've been away from the car for 3 years. I have the parts for other side too;, stamped sealed power rockers, and pushrods. A curious thing is napa fave me two style *****. All they had, when I purchased the parts. I suppose it doesn't matter. I did put 8 matching ***** in. Some were larger diameter and smooth. Others were smaller diameter and had oil grooves. I did use assembly lube, and followed the proceedure in the HELM Pontiac manual. Tightening until you can barely twist pushrod with fingers plus whatever they suggested. I think 1 turn.

I didn't want to disturb more than I had to. Now, I don't really care what gets taken apart. Mainly since I had no leaks and the machine shop put my intake base on.

I really see no reason why you cannot run self aligning (stamped anyways) rockers with the slotted heads. There is more than enough leeway at the tips of the ones I have to not fight the slots in the heads (L98) iron. At first I thought the machine shop screwed up. But I have read you should rely on only ONE method of pushrods guidance.

I saw online today, the rockers are avail with ***** and nuts for only $.30 more . At the online auto place. I used part no. 215-4244 (RP-3202) Pushrods, measuring 7.200". 214-2131 (R973A) Rockers. Machine shop used 7.260" and flat tip rockers.

Are these ones I used a good choice? They were what was listed for like a 92 Vette.

I plan to purchase some threaded studs and tap heads on the car. For pass side. Also inspect drivers side.

The very annoying part of the swap is I wasn't in full control of it all. It was a saga.

Thank you so much for the offer. If I get time on Friday-Sun I'll tear it down.

I live in the city and I'm at the mercy of friends garages and driveways.

Damon

Technically, if you have slotted pushrod holes in your heads (earlier-style alignment method that continued for a couple years into the "centerbolt" era before going to open holes and self-aligning rockers) you should use the earlier style rockers- non self-aligning. For exactly the reason you already know- don't use two different alignment systems that could "fight" with eachother and cause a problem with binding/wear. You say they don't fight with eachother so I guess I'll have to take your word on it, but I wouldn't have done that personally.

ANyway..... I'm also keyign in on the previous bent pushrod situation a warning or pre-cursor to your current valvetrain noise. Bent sticks is not good but more importantly right now is THAT SHOULD BE A RED FLAG. Pushrods don't just bend for no reason. They bend because you have valve float and/or some mechanical binding somewhere that is aggravated by stretching into the upper RPM range. It's telling you "I got hurt for a reason, please listen to what I'm telling you."

.060" shorter sticks are unlikely to cause the kind of problems you are experiencing. May not be optimum, but it's not like they are likely to cause the serious valvetrain issues in play here.

A ZZ4 cam has some serious lift compared to a stock L98 cam. Did you have the heads machined for the considerably higher lift that cam will produce? Stock retainer-to-guide clearance (~.470") is definitely NOT enough with a ZZ4 cam. And what springs were installed to complement the cam?

At this point I don't know enough to give you an educated guess. A WAG-type guess would be that the previous bent sticks might have done some damage to the "guts" of the lifters and set the stage for the valvetrain noise you are currently experiencing. But that is just a hunch, not anything like a fact-based diagnosis.

Ryan3834me

I was under the impression that ZZ4 cam being over the counter was compatible with unmodified stock heads. I think that I read this more than once.

I guess I did not research this fully. Darn it.

I guess I was hoping the machine shop would catch any problems in assembly with valve train clearance. I see now there is no easy way to check with hydraulic lifters, since you need oil pressure. You have to do the math. I didn't do the math. So, I should maybe plan on pulling intake, obtaining some new lifters, perhaps some LS1 or LS6 spring (think Vader posted this) smaller retainers, and screw in studs.

As far as I recall the stock springs were tested and reused and or substituted for similar. Wow, I feel like an a$$.

Vader made mention of Howard drop in race springs, as well. Hmmm.

This has me wanting to inspect cam as well.

So assuming my pushrods 8 of 16, new, and the one installed r ok. At a minimum I'm looking at a set of stock lifters ($150) and a spring set ($150), gasket kit for TPI ($45). This assumes cam and valvestem tips are healthy.

Perhaps I should just put her away till spring. Schools started.

That build was done in less than ideal timeframe, without my full attention.

I was sold on the whole 411 ECM upgrade too. I could pull cam since timing cover gets replaced. Ugh! I hate budget constraints.

Thanks for pointing out some things I missed and others I don't think I wanted to consider.

Your ride looks pretty awesome! I made a pullout 10" sub box that houses the subs amp as well. More stealth being in city. Can remove for Solo racing easy.

I was hoping for 330hp, maybe 380 ftlbs of torque, so I can keep toms low and fuel economy somewhat reasonable. Now I've got "might as wells". Lol

Hmm. So, don't bother with rockers until springs, retainers, lifters, and studs, eh?

Damon

A set of LS6 "beehive" springs and matching retainers is a common upgrade on stock heads. They open up the retainer-to-guide clearance considerably (enough for your cam and even a little more), plus they do a good job controlling the valvetrain at higher RPMs. And no machining required. If you know how to do an in-car valvespring change, you're good to go.

Aftermarket companies like Comp Cams also have a wide variety of beehive spring upgrade options. The LS6 stuff just gets used a lot because it's cheap, readily available and does a fine job with most mild performance cams.

Damon

I should also mention that if you have removed or will be removing the stock exhaust valve rotator-retainers and replacing them with retular non-rotator retainers (i.e. with beehive retainers or just regular retainer without the rotator provision) you'll need to put a 1/6" or .060" spring shim into each exhaust spring pocket before you put the spring in and reassemble.

Stock heads of that era that originally came equipped with factory rotator-retainers had the spring pockets machined about 1/16" deeper than the intake sides to make up for the added thickness of the rotator-retainer. So you need to put a spring shim in there to bring the exhaust spring pockets up to the same height as the intakes to keep the total spring installed height the same (~ 1.70").

This is important. Failure to do so will result in the exhaust springs having an extra 1/16" of installed height and lower the seated spring pressure considerably (making it much easier to float the valves at higher RPMs).

Ryan3834me

So: as in this thread here?
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...1-tpi-lt4.html

I was thinking of using the lt4 hotcam kits springs and retainers. There seem cheaper as car as not needing the comp cams retainers.

I don't know if the valve stem diameter and lock groove is same for L98 as is LS6. Will the GM LS6 retainers (or LT4 retainers) work with my L98 valve stems? Wish I had drawings of all this. Ugh.

I'm unfamiliar with o-ring style seals assembly. I'm trying to picture how they even hold up (and how they install) vs umbrella (or cup).

Beehive looks like the way to go! But how about a GM retainer for my valves. I'll plan on relieving the pushrod slots that remain, perhaps. It's unlikely I'll go up to 1.6 unless I find a deal on full rollers.

I apologize for for ignorance, but I've never worked on a Chevy head as far as retainers go. Looks common enough. I don't know of the purpose of this exhaust 'rotator'. Does it just allow valve to spin freely or cause it to? In some attempt to fight carbon?

I will toss them, just curious. Now for the shims, do they need to have a stepped seat? I saw some GM ones in the hot cam kit. Do I need those? I understand the shim requirement on exhaust. Thanks!

I'm not planning on going over .510. I'd just like things healthy again, and I can see new hydraulic roller lifters are on horizon, if not immediate.

Not sure how pinning would hold up. Those look to be just roll pins. I found a dorman part online 693006, but not in qty needed (3/8-20, 7/16-14 no nut). We're only $0.85. Set of mr Gasket pn. 1076 looks $45.

LT4 Lt1 seals?

Damon

Not familiar with the LT4 spring/retainer kit. Can't say if it would work or not. The main thing about beehive springs is that the retainer is an itsy-bitsy little thing, both in diameter and height. It doesn't protrude nearly as far down the valve stem as earlier full size retainers. That's what opens up the clearance above the guide.

If putting together a combination of parts from different sources is making you feel a little uncomfortable, maybe you should just call Comp and get a complete spring and retainer kit from them, after tellng them about your particular situation. They will almost certainly be able to steer you in the right direction.

Vortec (and all factory Gen1) SBC heads use 11/32" valve stems. LS motors use a metric size valve stem- 8mm, I believe. So the retainers are different in that respect.

Forget about valve stem groove location. You're into non-stock parts here. Call Comp and ask them. They will be able to get you a set of retainers that put things in the right place.

I do not think +.050 locks will be necessary in addition to beehive springs/retainers in your application. Could be wrong about that, but again, I'd take Comp's recommendations on it.

O-ring seals are a dinosaur technology. And they won't work with beehive retainers. They were designed to work in combination with an oil shedder over top of the stock spring. O-ring seals the stem to the retainer, shedder acts like a big roof over everything to keep oil from splashing straight onto the valve stem and into the top of the guide. They install on the BOTTOM groove of the valve stem (locks go on the top groove). You install them by compressing the sh%^& out of the spring, shoving the o-ring down the valve stem into the bottom groove, then putting the locks in place and letting the spring de-compress to tighten everything up. The o-ring gets "squeezed" inside the retainer when you do this and seals the stem to the retainer. Helps to have 3 hands when installing them. The end result is that the o-ring and shedder in combination act like a gigantic umbrella seal, but without using up ANY room between the guide and the bottom of the retainer. Their design is elegant for old technology but their effectiveness is pretty poor.

Even the factory starting putting "real" positive seals on their valve guides IN ADDITION TO the o-ring/shedder combination around 1987 (when they went to centerbolt valve cover heads). The seal technology was not really good, though until around the Vortec head era when the positive seals got to be VERY good (made of Viton) and the old o-ring/shedder combination was finally put out to pasture.

If your heads are stock 1988 pieces they SHOULD already have the guides cut to accept a real positive seal. If so, USE THEM. Not umbrella seals. And forget about the o-ring/shedder crap. Use the same seals that Vortecs use. The guide diameter should be the larger of the two common positive seal sizes- .530". Their should be noticable MACHINED "step" or "neck" at the top of the guide that is smaller in diameter on the top ~3/8" of the guide boss if it was machined to take a positive seal from the factory.

Original factory rotator/retainers were used so that the exhaust valve would change positions slightly every time it hit the exhaust seat in an attempt to even out the wear and enhance service life in a high mileage engine in the extereme (hot) operating environment exhaust valves live in. It's effectiveness at this in the real world is debatable. Better metallurgy and the magic of fuel injection rendered them obsolete (later Vortec heads do NOT use exhaust-side rotator/retainers, for example)

Spring shims for the exhaust do NOT need a stepped seat. Just the proper OD to fit snug inside the spring pocket (~1.26"). The ID is almost irrelevant so long as it clears the guide boss and the bottom of the spring has a nice flat platform to rest against. The spring seat in the factory head holds the shim in place since the shim sits down inside it and the two are almost the same diameter.

A note about spring shims- you can use real junk ones if your springs do not have an inner dampener coil. The end of the dampener coil is the only thing I've found that will try to cut into a "soft" shim. Since Beehives don't use an inner dampener coil you can rest the spring directly on top of most shims. In a REAL setup you use soft brass shims uner a hardened steel spring "cup" and keep shimming up until you get to the proper installed height. In a stock head there is no room for a proper spring cup so I just rest the spring directly on top of the shim. Sounds a little "ghetto" but I've done it plenty of times and there has been no real wear on them even after thousands of street miles.

Pinning stock press-fit studs.... the strength of the pin itself is largely irreleveant. The stock press fit does 90% of the work. The pin is just the "insurance." You can pin them if you want. I suspect you would have started pulling studs already if that was going to happen. If you've ever tried removing one on purpose you'd know those suckers were not made to come out easily.

Ryan3834me

I am not uneasy about saving some money on off the shelf components. Actually, the more I look into this, the more hesitant I am to use comp cams or crane components. Not about quality, for sure. But if I can use a GM production part cheaply, it's much more likely to be over the counter (or cheaper online) down the road; broader access. I think it's the engineer in me that just likes to problem solve. Its not a 500hp beast. Eg. some Cloyes chains (GM part). Nice to know I'm not governed by UPS mail order. Can be serviced, on the road, etc.

I watched a few YouTube videos. I see how the o-ring is used now. FelPro lists an 'improved design' for my application. They were likely already installed on this build.

The heads and block are from my former 1987 GTA 5.7 (got rearended). My 88 of late, started life as a 305 TBI. The conversion was a pain. But, I finally have my long desired serpentine setup.

So at this point, there isn't a known GM part to retain the LS6 beehives to the L98 stems?

I noticed how much more lift you can get in the specs. I will measure the setup I have. Any thought of taking out some of the lock material at its bottom? if 8mm( or whatever it is) is smaller than 11/32. The beehive retainers lock chamfer could be enlarged (pain). Just a thought.

I'm all about tapping heads for studscon the car. Those guides they sell for taps can cause breakage. If you drill out the threads on the tap guide, it won't bind, and will still keep tap fairly true, long enough. But pinning looks quicker, certainly cheaper.

I'm going to shoot some B-12 carb cleaner in lifters and do a flush. New oil. Pin studs, ensure I have adequate valve travel with newer springs, ball rockers, and pushrods. See if it quiets first. If not I know I'll need to do it all over with lifters and intake in spring. sounds optimistic, I know. Thanks again for all your help.

Temps in the 60's. Summers over in NY. .

Damon

I wouldn't mess with modifying a set of retainers to fit over a different sized valve stem. Just too dangerous.

Grinding a little off the BOTTOM of the retainer is a different story, however. Taking 50 thou off the bottom lip of the retainer to open up retainer-to-guide clearance has been done by quite a few people over the last few years. Seems to work without any ill effects. They call it affectionately "the ghetto grind".

I went searchig for the thread about this beehive upgrade because I knew it had been discussed in depth on this board not too long ago. I saw you already did your homework as well and posted up in it, so hopefully somebody will reply to you with some good answers there. Looks like you have to go aftermarket to get retainers that will work on 11/32" stems with beehives. Still, you save tons on the spring themselves.

If you're going to tap your heads on-car for studs you might want to use a set of "shoulderless" studs (no hex to tighten them in). When you go from press-in studs to screw-in the top of the stud boss needs to be milled down quite a bit (to make sure the bottom of the rocker doesn't rub against the hex) as well as being made nice and flat. Using shoulderless studs is the usual path to screw-in studs on a stock pressed-stud head without all that machine work. Or you could drill and pin them, like you have been considering.

Ryan3834me

Yeah I saw a video from Aussie heads. He mills down the thickness of the nut, plus guide plate. YouTube is a truly amazing tool. . I

I don't see the harm in chasing out a retainer, if you get it right (im assuming LS locks work the same). I guess i only thought about it since i have some tapered reaming bits already. After reaming, i might not. The comp cams retainer set is only $55. Lol. I'm being too cheap! Pinning can be upgraded down the road.

I think I have my shopping list. 4 items anyway. (springs, retainers, pin kit, extra locks). For a shim, I need only some that fit in the L98 pocket? Lip on OD+ to locate spring? I guess this is my last concern. Is there enough guide exposed to locate shim with its ID without bothering seal? Should I think about an arbor and cutter for sprint seat/shim area? One that can cut with guide installed? Am I complicating this? Lol. I only ask, because if my installed ht is over 1.75" on any valve, would I then need to deepen pocket to locate the shim? How much of a shoulder or ID does bottom of spring need for location? Obviously, if this were LT head I'd have my answers.

On seals, isn't the newer design just an umbrella type of better materials, and a metal shell for compression?

Damon

The newer style seals are metal around the base but inside is more of the Viton seal material that "grabs" the guide boss (install with a little bit of oil on them so they press down over the guide without excessive force). The top of the seal is just a little lip with a compression spring around it to hold tension on the part that actually seals against the valve stem. They're real positive seals that grab on the guide boss and the valve stem slides through them as the valve goes up and down.

The shims you need are just plan, flat shims for a 1.25" spring. ID doesn't matter much so long as it is bigger than the foot of the guide boss. The OD of the shim will be very close to the ID of the spring pocket so that will keep them in place. The spring just sits on top and there is almost nothing to keep it located, except the very lip of the sping pocket that will stick up here and there with the dips and bumps of the casting. Having nothing to locate the bottom of the the spring is not a problem in your application. You wouldn't do it like this building a race motor but for a street setup that's rarely going to see the high side of 6000 it's not a problem. The factory obviously didn't worry about it much on the intake side since they didn't machine the spring seat very deep in the casting at the factory.

So, yeah, you're over-thinking it a bit.

Ryan3834me

Yay!

Most of my Summit order will be here today.

I noticed some smoke idling. As much as I wanted to tell myself it was rich, it was likely oil. So perhaps this cam has been beating up on my seals. I saw in a magazine write up the slots on these types of heads should be elongated for higher lift cams. Great. There are now 2-3 things I overlooked on this build.

I ordered:
LS6 springs
CCA-787-16 **********16PC RETAINER SET
Trick Flow hydraulic roller lifters. X 16
Screw in studs (w/o nut)
FelPro intake valve seals
FelPro exhaust valve seals.

(also some tool items, puller and tap guide, spark plug hose, an OTC spring compressor, and a paddle compressor. Will grab a nice Hanson tap at Hone depot if I can. No cheap ones . )

I have a slight shake to the motor. It comes and goes at various RPM. I'm hoping this is due only to valves.

I am tempted to go to guide plates and scorpion rockers.

I'd like to try and use the OEM 92 Vette (LT1) stamped 1.5 SA rockers, *****, and pushrods I already have, one sides already (used condition.). Basically if I have the intake off, I can drill out the slots on heads, and be able to clean up shavings. Install new lifters. See if calc train noise and shake goes away, before going to different rockers or guide plates.

Too optimistic? .

FelPro stuff didn't ship yet. I don't know if my guides will accept LT1 seals, so I got the listed 1988 L98 ones.

Any suggestions on spring shims? What diameters do I need for stock L98 heads (exhaust)? Source, part no? Anything over the counter?

Btw. Thanks again!

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

#1 Pull the heads before you do this stuff (your modifications).

#2 Don't ever use an oil-thinner or cleaner to attempt to fix a suspected sticking part while in a running engine.

#3 Valve-spring shims are 1.25" O.D. Always measure installed height before picking and installing shims.


Part upgrades are not generally a good way to approach trouble-shooting a noise or misfire. A single cylinder noise means that all the other cylinders are fine, so a major parts mismatch is unlikely.
Narrow down to a specific cylinder first. Then inspect everything very carefully. When the heads are off, inspect even more carefully.

You described a single ticking or clacking sound, and an intermittent misfire.
The two most likely conditions to cause these symptoms are:
1. A cracked spark-plug, or otherwise compromised secondary voltage path.
2. An exhaust leak at the cylinder head exhaust port.

Both of these conditions can compromise closed-loop operation and cause a rich condition.

When heads are off, check all valve-guides for slop. Check for damaged or loose fitting valve seals. Check for bent valves. Check for damaged or weakened springs. Check for cracks in cylinder head.

My preference is using guide-plates with non-self-aligning rockers.

Getting zero noise from a valvetrain is not always possible, but you shouldn't be having misfires, and you shouldn't be damaging parts.

Ryan3834me

305:

This build has had a slew of setbacks [i wasn't present for initial install, only firing; and I wasn't happy with how it happened] 1: distributor gear was initially found to be damaged, the cam cut its half circle into dust gear. (I did not have complete oversight of this install). 2. A used distributor out of my former 305 was dropped in place. I suspected dist gear wear, recently. I was right. I put in new distributor because I wanted to rule it out. I found that the gear was heavy worn, but not cut through, as before - cap was overdue. I hope to inspect this new dist gear and if wear is negligible, I can assume cam gear is ok. 3. It's apparent, on paper, stock unmodified heads aren't safe with ZZ4 cam. I don't have valve covers off, yet. But I did experience bent pushrods, about 3 (in the past), on drivers side. See above. So there's a reason for these parts. I bought the lifters, to have ready, if springs, and rockers don't clear up the noise and shaking. Plugs too. Coil worked fine but had physical slop in it. Installed: plug wires, coil, dist, TPS, timing 6.

Inspecting the 305 OEM distributor indicated it was about due for new everything! Besides the United Distributor (nice unit), was only $100! New. Pulling heads is a good idea, but I might not have ability to go that far yet. (limited on how and where I work). Spark plugs was my next move. The heads can have studs put on in the car, also the guide slots can be enlarged (if intake is pulled).

I did purchase the ZZ4 cam as part of a stroker kit. I question the exact material and origin of cam, a bit. If new dist gear looks worn, I'll have to cry. I was meticulous in installing it, and would point to cam gear damage. As far as solvents on lifters, it's been done, it 'can' unclog them. I've seen it.

You are correct about the plugs and exhaust leak. I suspect that as well. I even suspected perhaps a cracked flywheel. But the valve train isn't up to lift of cam. I need to make it SO. Either way. Might as well do the springs,etc first and see if it's not, just that. Thanks much tho.

Damon

Whoah...... you are on your 3rd distributor gear? Ummmmm........ yeah..... that's not good news. I'll have to wish you luck on that one. Not so sure that's going to work out happily in the end.

BTW- you won't have to open up the pushrod slots for a modest performance cam in most cases. The pushrod is usually at it's closest point to the fulcrum in the valve-closed position. That's where the rub usually happens first- on the side of the slot that's closest to the rocker stud. Switching to 1.6 rockers (that move the pushrod cup closer to the fulcrum) will often require slot elongation, however.

Ryan3834me

I had a non-technical person do the physical swap. I had to commute to where it was happening. One day, shaking out the bugs (changing proms, etc, it didn't fire) I tested the coil, I pulled the cap, and saw there was 180 of play on rotor (Dist 1). Without missing a beat (while I was having a heart attack thinking of gear debris), the guy grabbed my 305 dizzy and dropped it in. Engine fired right up. (Dist 2). I was off on my own. I don't know what cause the 1st failure, or wear on the 2nd. Gear 2 had heavy wear on the gear. I am trying to narrow it down. This is my first experience getting inside a Chevy V8 (I've built 2 motors before, OHC tho). I am however willing to learn. Thank you all for your input! I don't have a garage at my disposal, so I'm trying to do as much HW as I can. SO, when I turn in "drive way points", I can work a bit quicker.

Ryan3834me

Pulling the pass side valve covered revealed a broken rocker stud. It cracked at the very bottom thread of the press-in stud. This side of valve train was not touched since the machine shop assembled it.

So, slightly shakey, down on power... I wasn't expecting this, perhaps one pulling out.

I ran a 3/8-16 dye down it. Stacked washers and pulled it with a grade 8 nut. My Rigid impact turned out to be quite the time saver. . Love those

I tapped out the hole 7/16-14. Grabbed one of the threaded studs from my kit, degreased hole with brake cleaner, and applied red Loctite. Hoping I was well on the road to recovery, I grabbed two new stamped Vortec 1.5 SA rockers and *****, shaved the ends of the ball slots in rockers about .020. Oh.. Pushrods. The ones on this side look ok. No bends, and the slots in the heads are still flat. In goes new pushrod, and WTF. One drops in till nearly just a 1/4" is exposed. The other is at nearly more than full height. I have engine cranked.. Ok lifter which was higher, moves up and down freely. The one were pushrod dropped in a good way, I don't recall if it moved (probably a key observation. Was awake for 24 hrs). Removing this drooping rod, leave about an inch of oil on it. Definitely hammered through lifter, or lifter collapse. The interesting part was pushrod that came out was visually OK. The rocker which was sitting loose in the valle had badly scored, also the ball. Luckily it did not seem to damage anything else.

So I'm now quite nervous. I have OEM replacement hydro rollers (Trick Flow). Pulling intake is now mandatory. - was hoping to fire it up and see what a V8 feels like. V7's aren't impressive.

A good friend of mine bought quite s bunch of nice parts for his former '99 Tahoe. Roller lifters, pushrods, guideplates, and an XR276HR-10 cam (assuming 1.5 .502 .510 224 230) he said was good for fuel injection. I may inherit these unused new parts. He also had springs for it. Crane cast 1.6 rockers. (multiply by 1.6/1.5). Pushrods are like .10 longer, not sure why.

I did not get to inspecting the distributor gear last night. I have suspicions of the cam.

Should I just pull intake for now, depending on condition of distributor gear!? (would be some indicator of cam condition.).

Worth having L98 heads redone, and machined for guides!? Maybe larger valves? I've ported a few pairs of OHC heads. If I hog out a little on them? I have some nice carbides .

Damon

You're going to have to pull the intake to replace the lifters anyway, so.....

You still can't see the cam gear very well even with the intake off but you can see it a ton better than you can with the intake on!

What you're finding is pretty typical of valvetrans that get in a bind somewhere. Everything can get hammered into a pile of crap. Rockers, pushrods, studs.... everything takes some of the hit.

But not the distributor gear. That's a different issue entirely from the valvetrain.

Ryan3834me

First step, pull distributor and see what kind of wear I see on the gear. (cam good/bad)

If its good, (hope, hope) pop in all 16 new lifters, stamped SA's, intake, LS6 springs, retainers. But, I should tap studs with these springs. Right...

I was hoping for a quick fix. Tapping the studs was slow going, until I got a 8 pt 1/4" socket. All my collet type drives, including drill chuck slipped repeatedly. Not sure if all 16 is wise right now.

I'm wondering why stud broke. If this is an authentic ZZ4 cam, intake is .474, exhaust .510. The broken stud is the intake rocker. Factory heads good till .47, right!? So 3 theories. 1) nut was too tight. 2) valve float and piston whacked it 3) velocity killed lifter and pushrod jammed rocker, and slot torqued off (snapped) stud.

I don't recall if my pistons had valve releifs.

Thinking of buying borescope to inspect cylinder for valve/piston damage. Also dial gauges to verify lift on cam, see if it's really ZZ4 (cast) or simlar other (billet). Maybe distributor gear needs to be different material.

If cams gear is bad.... That's fun. It did see a few distributor gears demise, then wear.

BTW: HDepot didn't carry the darn 7/16-14 tap. The cheapo tap and die set I picked up had useless circle OD dies. What saved the day!? A "USA" stamped HEX OD die I bought way back when in the early 90's at Wally world branded "Popular Mechanics" kit. Good luck finding anything like that now. 1" socket, and done. Dropped into Hardware store (China :/ )

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Edit: nevermidn, you already got the correct adapter retainers to make the beehives work with Gen I heads.

Ryan3834me

Wow, I found a vette LT1 motor for $400. LT1 Aluminum heads are already tapped. LOL. I've been reading those threads too!! Still need to be shaved for guide plates. I think I'll knock this out quick and store it. Something better this way comes in spring!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You can use the beehives with the LT1 heads too. If you put a mild performance cam (LT4 hotcam) in the LT1, the LS2/3/6 yellow (blue now) springs and the beehive retainers you have will be perfect. They ARE more modern technology. There are advantages to beehive springs beyond bolt on retainer-guide clearance benefits.

Ryan3834me

Thank you guys for all of your help with this.

I got all 16 holes tapped. In the end, I went straight to the cordless drill. I did use a guide, and I had no issues with binding. I left the threaded portion of the tap guide at the top, and I think I got all of them perfect. A lot of work for these iron heads. School has interupted this a few times.

I'm assuming there was some material on the cam gear that wore away on the old diizzy that was thrown in. From the looks of things the gears are A-OK. I picked up a filtermag, and Ill be fishing in the pan with a nice magnet, as well.

I did pick up the H.F. Tool $180+ digital inspection camera. It's a very nice tool. Intuitive menu system and records picture and video to a SanDisk. If you buy one your MUST glue the mirror tip to it's sleeve, it's not loose at first, but slight jolt and it flops in and out. I took it apart when I bought it (reviews were right). I used tiny amt of silicone.

I inspected the dizzy gear, and it was very healthy. The cam gear, viewed multiple times - tough to see it perfcetly with a single shot. below is a 50 second video of looking at my cam gear. It looks healthy.


I noticed at least one stud appeared to pulling out slightly. I'm going to get my springs in and drill out the guide holes. I picked up some self-aligning full roller rockers (1.5 SA), from Proform. I know they aren't the best... but gotta be better than that ball setup. I'll get better rockers with the Vette heads (next summer?).

I'll clean up any metal after I pull the intake and lifters. Plan is magnet, light solvent or oil spray, and/or vaccum.

I'm thinking of lapping the valves with a drill. Obviously very gently, and only chucking up on the retainer portion of the stem.

I'll be using the rope method. Hope it goes smooth. :-)

-Ryan

Damon

Looks good. Glad the distributor gear is OK.

Don't lap the valves in and assembled engine. Lapping valves requires valve lapping compound to be applied to the valve and seat to work properly. Not going to have access to those parts on an assembled engine, obviously. You're likely to make it worse as much as you are likely to make it better.

Everything else sounds like you're good to go.

Ryan3834me

Just a little update.

I drained off some coolant. I rechased all 16 stud holes with a tap and brake cleaner. I installed studs with a generous amount of red loctite. I torqued them in well, and wiped off excess.

I used the rope method to retain the valves, and it worked like a charm.

I noticed some interesting things. 3 pressed in studs had slight grooves cut in them (I assume something machine shop did to extract them). Well those are tosssed now.

The seals were white in color, and had metal bands on them. Can I assume these are good? 2nd, there were no rotators present, and the exhaust valves already had 0.060 shims installed on the exhaust springs. I assume the locks are hardened, but replaced the shims, and put in seal-power hardend locks anyway.

http://s907.beta.photobucket.com/use...3c9fc.jpg.html

One side of the motor now has the LS6 beehives, and comp cams retainers installed. All 16 studs are locktited. I'm ready to do the other side springs today.

I found 2 plugs were normal, and my center 2 spark plugs (3,5) were wet. I cleaned them and kept the valve seals, since they still had low miles on them. The valve seals were of the positive type (metal tension bands, and material was white).

I did order new seals for intake (felpro which were blue with bands), and for exhaust (felpro which were white). I figured since they weren't too cheap, I'd save them for the Vette heads later. I'm assuming the white material seals are the 'high temp' ones, which the machine shop appeared to use on all the intake and exhaust on the head I completed last night.

I noticed the damper of the old springs put some wear on the spring shims around the ID, so since I had new ones, I replaced them (on exhaust springs only).

Did I make good calls so far? :/ I use Bosch Platinum Plus (not 2's). They looked perfect and gaps were still at 0.035.

I used a chain wrench on non grooved portion of pully for CCW rotation, and used balancer bolt for CW rotation (rope). Worked well so far. Will brush on some paint, if any marks are left.

I'm still tempted to drill out the pushrod guide holes a bit. (Can be cleaned when intake is pulled) I am using Proform 1.5 SA rockers. Stock length LT1 vette pushrods. New Trickflow hydraulic roller lifters, which have been soaking in synthetic (hole up). I am contemplating pickng up a dial gauge to check lift on cam today. I hope a mag base will be sufficient.

Damon

White valve guide seals? Let me guess.... they are like hard plastic, right? If so, they're crap. Old Teflon-seals. Flaky as a bowl of Raisin Bran. Old school seal technology. Get as far away from them as you can. Newer Viton seal technology is lightyears ahead.

Here is the crap you don't want (PTFE/Teflon):

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-503-16/?rtype=10

Here is the good stuff you do want (Viton):

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-529-16/?rtype=10

I'm not trying to pick one manufacturer or another. Just to illustrate the difference in how they look between the two different seal materials. The ones I posted, above, are for the correct valve stem and guide diameter for your heads, however. So if you just wanted to buy the Comp seals I linked above, they would fit right on and work.

Ryan3834me

I got the 16th spring in last night. I suspected the seals might have been Teflon. I ordered some FelPro seals (I did not use them), but they had two listings. Intake and exhaust. I got them from Rock..... I have a background in materials, and agree totally with you about Viton. But am not going through this again, lol. I'll wait for better heads. Thanks so much for the link though. The pair of springs by my AC was a total pain, but I got it.

Today, off with the intake, etc.

I found a sensor above the knock sensor and below the pass-side exhaust manufold. I don't recall what it is. It's not my temp gauge wire, or the knock sensor. What is it!? It's connector looks rough. I'd replace it if I can figure out what it was.

Probably a bit late in the game, but are those Proform rockers going to clear the stock valve covers? . I noticed Scorpion offers narrow body ones. Not sure why, narrow!?

Btw. Compressing those beehives was so much easier than the springs I took off. I almost wonder that they used. In one spring seat there was two shims. One was a bit frayed Around the center (from damper) so I just deburred and reused it. It was stacked with a 0.060 which was fine.

I have a 165 stat and heated O2. Should I go to a 180?

Damon

That's your cooling fan temp switch. Turns on the fan (or one of the two fans if you have two) at a pre-determined temperature. The connector is always butchered on avery 3rd gen I've ever seen. It should look exactly like the knock sensor connector but a different color. You can buy replacement pigtails at most good auto parts stores that have a specialty electrical connector catalog.

Narrow body rockers are to clear the centerbolt supports, but the real interferece happens with the breather "baffle box" on the underside of the valve cover in my experience. I've used non-narrow body rockers under stock covers before, but they were Harland Sharp rockers and they BARELY cleared with a little "massaging" of the baffle box. Can's say if your Proforms will clear or not. Depends how fat they are. I would expect them to fight you, though.

Can't say if that extra shim in one spring pocket should have been there or not. Might be that pocket was just a WEE BIT deeper than the others so they put an additional shim in that one. Only way to know for sure is to measure the installed height (which you are way past since you already have the new springs installed). Put it back like you found it and run it would be my advice.

Ryan3834me

OK, cool. This is a single fan car (originally a 305TBI). It cools as good or better than my dual fan setup did on my 1987 GTA 350. So, that explains why I forgot about it. I've been running only a single fan last few years. I used a 1988 TPI harness from ebay and my 1987 ECM. Thanks for reminder!!

I noticed in some exhaust seat/pockets there was one thinner silver in color shim in some but not all exhaust pockets in. There was however copper colored (although magnetic) 0.060 shims in all exhaust seats. I just assumed they made whatever additional shimming they needed with these. As you suggested, that is what I did is just keep them in place where found. Where I saw a copper ones that were beat on (by inner damper), I put in a fresh one. The 0.060 shims were the same make and markings that the machine shop used. So, basically 'back like I found it' was how I went. Thanks again.

I have a cutting implement. soo... perhaps that might be the way. I also have some long carbide burrs down with the car, and an adjustable speed 1/4" collet tool.

I'm tempted to take the injectors home and rig up a testing device with an extra inline pump I have and some mineral spirits. I could actually just pressurize the rails (unplugged) in the car right? Just to see if one is sticking open? All they need is 12V and a momentary switch to spray? (obviously lots of rags and care). 4 plugs were tan and dry, 4 were wet.

Damon

I definitely wouldn't go grinding on the rocker arms. And I wouldn't take out the baffle box or any of the centerbolt supports from the underside of the valve cover. If the rockers are too fat, exchange them for something that will fit under.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Whats the aversion everyone has to tall valve covers?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-6870G/

Thats what I did with mine. I've got Comp Pro Magnums, which are similar to their current Super Extreme Pro Magnum IV whatevers. Full roller, non SA.

Ryan3834me

No I wasn't daring considering grinding on components. Lol. But bits of the covers that won't weaken it too much maybe. Oh, and opening up the pushrod guide slots in the iron heads. I saw some wear on some of them. With the SA's I don't need that material. I'll pop on the drivers side one today and see if it fits. I never played with poly locks, not sure if they add to height much.

I'm open to taller covers. Just seams so damn tight under there especially with all the AIR tube crap. I could barely get the passenger side one off. I know there's a tight spot at the alternator positive terminal too. But $100 isn't bad for those. I like the satin aluminum look myself tho. The vette ones are actually magnesium. And neat looking.

Damon

You grind the positive terminal stud down so it's nearly flush with the backside of the nut when you install taller valve covers with a serpentine belt-type accessory setup. At least, that's what I always had to do.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Ive just been working around it the whole time.... I should definitely grind it down. It makes a hell of a zap and welds itself to the valvecovers if I forget to disconnect the neg battery cable.

If you've got a lot of plumbing going on, I can see how that would make things pretty snug under there.

Ryan3834me

Vortex, are yours the Mr. Gasket ones?

Yup I think I need them... I put on the rockers and locks (no pushrods), and it's way tight. I fit it without the gasket, and seemed like it needed 1/4". With the gasket, doesn't seem to concerting.

Did those or any of those around $100 come with grommets or bolts? I assume I can reuse my felpro one in good shape!?

Thanks

Ryan3834me

Meh.. the Spectre ones came with hardware (ball milled)... just ordered. How did you modify your alternator terminal? I have the serpentine setup.

SPE-4279

Valve Cover Breather, Push-In, Chrome Plated Steel, 1 in. OD Neck, 5/8 in. PCV Nipple, Each



SPE-5016

Valve Covers, Tall, Aluminum, Polished, Ball-Milled, Chevy, 5.0/5.7L, Pair



SPE-5339

Valve Cover Grommets, Open Style, fits 1.25 in. I.D. Holes, 3/4 in./1 in. I.D's, Set of 2

Ryan3834me

Saga continues...

So lets start in the positive note:

New lifters presoaked installed
New tall oil filter installed.
5 qts sysnthetic added.
Zirk fittings lubbed, and dropped to reinstall instake.
New LS6 springs installed, older tellon seals retained for now.
I kept old themrostat RTV'ed in place since it's 165 and lower miles.
I put small doeses of RTV around collant crossovers. Big beads of RTV where china walls would be.
New Spectere Cast aluminum taller covered ordered. Arrived.
I got 4 mounting bolts for fuel rails loose (man they were tight). Prelubed and installed them.
I filled case with 5 qts synthetic and put new filter mag on new filter.
New proform 1.5 S.A. roller rockers are installed hand tight. Remaining QT of synthetic lifters soaked in, was added as well.
New pushrods are over the counter 1992 Vette Sealed Power Napa offerings.
Fuel rail in in place. No injectors leaked when I pressurized the rail, via jumper.
Cam gear looks good on video. Dist gear look good too.
So, I topped off suspension grease fittings for steering and ball joints (even sway bar), filter and engine oil.

I dropped in my old ground down down dizzy shaft for priming. Spun well enough to turn on the fuel pump (which I pulled the fuse on now).

So I'm really looking to adjust rockers, and prelube. Seal valve covers.

MAJOR culprit. Lower alternator bolt with rounded torx hole. Clearance for positive terminal will need modifying, I think...(not how I feel about that being on the road and having one fail). Lower alt bracket bolt isn't coming off. I tried a bolt/nutt extractor, albiet on round head. Cutting slot. Fuel lines lay just behind this bolt. So... I', thinkning pulling rails again, moving over lines. Welding in a torx bit (T-45?) into the bolt head, heating it with MAP gas and turning it out.

Am I on the right track? I should be DONE by now... ARG!!!

Any tips on triming down profile of positive terminal (thinking of future service aswell), and getting this bottom alternator bolt out without igniting vehicle. I'm pretty exhausted as I right this.

All I have around is a 110V 80A flux core.. which should be very willing to sacrifice a one piece torx bit on. Then there's the problem of retapping the 3rd deeper aluminum ear.. it''s pretty deep. I'm guessing I would dremmel cutting slots in bolt, and just use a standard hex head replacement with some lube.

I'm hoping if I can get the alternator out of the picture for the moment, I'll be able to double check valve cover clearance and fitment (fuel lines very near by). Get rest of intake on. I discovered presvious butcher trhreaded a new vaccum nipple into previous AFPR body. so much so it bound spring. This has can disassembled and clearanced. smooth now.

Any similar experiences with altes (positive), brackets? I'm guessing MAP torche and MIG will be friend of the day. I do gotta get this done.... UGh!

Thank again all!

-Ryan

Oh, And while i have the mig out... why not kill off the AIR lines. .. just a thought.

Ryan3834me

I had forgotten some basic things when I had my chip burned by Ed Wright. (EGR, AIR, temp of thermostat). Any of it matter.... In 30 seconds he explained, EGR is disabled on ZZ4 tunes, AIR pump, isn't even triggered, and car can go into closed loop in as little as 130 degrees! AWESOME!.

Last night I removed EGR, made a nice block off plate.
I removed ALL air lines (should have done it years ago!).
I now have SPACE!! wow what a difference. The tall valve covers drop in. I got the alternator bolt out. Rockers are all adjusted. OIL is primed. All thats left is bolting up the intake, and dropping the new dizzy back in. I also painted the firewall, and intake. Will be nice... in SPRING.

The 1/4 EGR pipe fittings were a mix of mostly 1/2 thread plumbing plugs and loctite (red), or filled in with my MIG.

I have vacuum questions... I have and intend to use still Ball Resioir, Vapor Canistor, Cruise module, AFPR, PCV, PCV feed, brake pedal switch hose. What a puzzle. Odd part is my cruise worked up until I replaced the master/slave. so... fun times.

BTW. The spectre covers fit awesome with air lines gone. The pair of grommets I ordered fit PCV valve perfectly and the right angle chrome PCV feed cap. No plastic garbage to crack... nice.


http://s907.beta.photobucket.com/user/macewen/media/AIRTUBESOVERCOVER.jpg.html
http://s907.beta.photobucket.com/user/macewen/media/VALVECOVERS.jpg.html



ALL THESE tubes I wrestled with since 1990... or avoided... now GONE!!!!

Ryan3834me

http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/a...SOVERCOVER.jpg







took 10 tries to get links working... but this is about where Im at.. just vacuum and more housekeeping. Alternator clears valvecover just fine!! I just have to install it after cover.. for the now. This means if I need an alternator on the road.. it's not a hassle to remodify terminals.

Damon

Looks good.

Put some hose caps over the ends of the air tube nipples on the exhaust manifolds. They have one-way valves in them, but they don't always seal up so good.

Ryan3834me

I put sawsall blades, pipe plugs, and mog wire over remaining AIR tubes.

My only worry now is getting the cruise controls working again. '

Assuming installing intake piping and such goes smooth. Just vacuum stuff.

fcondebr

HI there. I live in Brazil and i'm having the same issue with my new setup.

I have a 91 z28 with a 305. Replaced heads, trick flow, mild cam, and rockers (1.7).

Everything is claking like crazy. Seems to be flutuating. Lifters does not seem to be loaded.

I have reused by old lifters.


Ho did you finally solve you issue ?