WhiteKnight

i don't think most many people on here will have the number. I don't think there are that many locals on here. My friend has the number on his cell. I can prolly get it from him tonight.

GOY

Been saying that since it came out. If it did, at the price it costs, Accel wouldn't be selling many more superram's - especially with CARB approval numbers if they could get them.

I've made many posts on here about just that, and have often gotten the cold shoulder because most guys here could care less about EGR (or don't have emissions testing)... really wish holley would consider it.

Shagwell

The HSR doens't have a provision for the egr because of its price. They didn't have to build all new tooling to create it, so it's price stayed down. They simply built a box(plenum), and added injector ports to their tunnel ram base. Thats why its sooo cheap. If they went through the trouble of designing an entire intake, the price would be comparable to all the other intakes. - The HSR was not built to be the holy grail, it was built because they could do it w/ little r&d because it would use stuff they already had, making it cheap.

the gearing everyone is talking about is not your final drive ratio, its the gear ratio of your rear-diff. - Yes a 3.08 means 3.08:1. Meaning for every 3.08 turns of your driveshaft, your tires spin 1 full rotation. 3.42 means 3.42:1 and so on... And no, changing the gears in the diff doesn't neccesarily mean you'd have to change your power. NO, GM did not gear for best performance. GM geared for driveability, fuel economy, and lastly performance.

Syn

i think it actually might be more around 3k rpms at 80mph in 5th gear idk what i was thinking mybad

so gear ratio for that would be?

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Around 4.11:1 unless yours speedo or tach is reading wrong.

Shagwell

if you've got a 4.11 and a TPI, you've got issues...3000k @ 80 mph is WAY high for a low rpm intake.

WhiteKnight

heres the address and # for best buy.

Best Buy Wholesale Ltd.
510 7488 King George Hwy, Surrey, BC V3W0H9
(604) 594-6674

88tatpi

88tatpi

What I've done on my 305 TPI with 700R4:

Alloy roller rockers and hardened extra thick pushrods, 24lbs injectors and Walbro/Holly 255litre fuel pump, MSD coil, headers and flowmaster and high flow cat dual exhaust, high flow alloy water pump, underdrive pully set, variable rate fuel pres. reg.
PROM burner and software, ported and matched TPI plenum and runners with BBK 58mm throttle body.
( Complete TCI shift kit with billet 4th/2nd servo, springs and TV valve.)
I tried to put as many "bolt-on" parts first and started playing with the chip mods. before I go deep into the engine and change its basic charactor.
Oh...almost forgot: I added a set of poly motor and trans mounts, changed the oil pan and added a high flow oil pump as well !
Another consideration is that most of these items will work with a 350/383 too!
Good Luck and spend your money wisely!

85rocker

With due respect, I don't buy it. Not for a minute.

EGR has been around for 35 years.

SBCs even longer.

The target market for the HSR is ECM driven vehicles using TPI EFI.

I do not believe the margins on the intake are so minimal that they cannot engineer into the product an EGR passage that they have the design templates for (and paid for) decades ago.

IMO the people at Holley who are responsible for product management do not understand their target market or are being restricted in their marketing. Probably the latter.

If they introduced an EGR port they would own the 3rd gen EFI SBC market and would lose nothing to the 60s and 70s conversion market.

Its probably one of those things where the parent company (Mr. Gasket) doesn't want the HSR to compete with its other product lines for example Accel. No sense putting yourself out of business eh?

WhiteKnight

That is the way I'm going about my car as well. I have a 305 so I'm working mostly around the engine for now, nothing that wont work on a 350. Since I plan on changing to a 350 once I have enough spare cash to justify an engine swap. Right now theres more important stuff to spend my money on.

JohnnyBravo

Ok guys yet another question... since it has arisen that the injectors on my car are prolly getting tired by now, would taking them out and putting em in inj. cleaning solution help it more than just adding a cleaning solution to the fuel?
also im now planning on getting the HSR, they quote me it for 356.77 canadian funds, thats for the intake + plenum + runners.. what aftermarket parts will i need aside from a ful rail to fit that on top of my block??

Shagwell

not trying to flame, but the HSR uses a basically unchanged tunnel ram base(injectors bosses are only change). Ever see a tunnel ram w/ an egr? - If they were to build in a egr passage, they would have to re-tool the whole intake. - Also, a person could easily add-on a LT1 style egr to the plenum on a HSR, so I really think they should do that. - Or, if you don't have to show the 50-state stuff, you could add it yourself to pass a visual.

ThirdGenFire

Hell on my Iroc I put the injecotrs I had from my LT1 Formula since mine were leaking. I think it fixed it for now plus I had them cleaned and they made a world of a difference.
And on the Intake stuff.....FIRST INJECTION SETUP!!!!!!!!!!!

GOY

Better than TPI - doesn't hold water to the superram or HSR.

Nifty, sweet all around look - but no matter the runner diameter - that "Wave" has a long distance to travel to make it up to the plenum from the back of the valve. Cool intake, but why not just get the SuperRam if you're 90% there cost wise anyway?


Also, 85rocker - I've brought all of that up in the past just to be told "Shut up idiot."

85rocker

No can do the HSR JohnnyBravo.

Accolades to the HSR all know it is a huge power gainer but it will not pass emsissions you will be dead on the visual and the tail pipe.

Shagwell

good question- do you have to pass emmissions testing? If so, no go on the HSR. - Then i'd seriously look into the FIRST system. Do a search. member on here going by something like "badSS" he's been playing intakes, ran about all of them. The FIRST set-up would really be fairly ideal on a street 305-350. makes power to around 6-6500 and still keep a big part of your bottom end torque. Plus, its emmissions legal(have to use corvette style egr though)

Shagwell

the FIRST set-up not only has larger runners, it has shorter runners, and a shorter cross section in the base. that's why everything is different from a TPI. -

GOY

I'm familiar with the first setup. It was initially developed by "Air Sensors," then sold to "First Injections." It does provide more airflow for large cubic inch engines, but it DOES NOT substantially move the power band up much more then 500-1000RPM. The SuperRam does more to move a powerband, PERIOD! The larger diameter runners kill air speed for smaller engines, but provide enough velocity for engines that consume more air per intake stroke - YET it still requires more time for the intake wave to bounce from the back of the intake valve to the plenum. Great for air flow at low rpms, but as soon as the numebr of intake strokes increase, the runner length (not diameter) becomes problematic. In addition, the plenum is rather small - almost stock.

Please take note of the torque graph - it mimics the stock TPI unit's graph, but with an additional 20 ft/lbs and 20 horsepower. If you feel there is more to discuss here, it's obvious you are in need of the information regaurding the first setup, not I.



Have a good one.

Shagwell

500-1000 rpm over stock would be great on the street. I'm not rying to flame or fight, but on a 305 or 350, the FIRST intake(yes, formerly AS) will make good power to around/over 6k. Plus it keeps a nice torque curve. I'm not saying its the best thing on the market for all out power. I'm just saying for a strong street oriented car that still gets driven often, it's a great intake. - it would keep him from loosing to much low-end torque, while giving him more hp.

GOY

If someone wants their car to accelerate faster, I don't understand the fascination with torque under 3,000RPM. You see it only once in the 1320, and you can gear/stall around any "Lacking" bottom end torque, as long as you have a good solid midrange and mid/upper range torque. As far as a First Injection unit maintaining 6,000+ RPM power N/A - I'd have to see the dyno chart, and see the car actually dyno'ed to be sure it wasn't a short runner intake chart I was being shown as "Evidence." The Charts that I have seen from a First Injection car (one in person - the other here) show graphs very similar or slightly elevated in engine speeds from a stock unit - of course, producing more power - but engine speeds aren't greatly affected.

I guess I have to ask the logical question:
If the First Injection unit has an EGR, costs less than the SuperRam, and can maintain both "most" of the low end torque and 6k+ RPM power, why isn't it the dominate intake on the market? Something has to be missing from that equation, would you not agree?!?!?



(No intake can maintain power in both areas )

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

IMO the intake that came on the old 4.3 could. It had a variable length runner controlled by a tuning valve.

IMO, if someone came out with one for a TPI it would sale, if you could keep the price low enough. The vortec 350 base would be a good start, LOL.

GOY

Devil's Advocate
Fine fine fine, no nonvariable, single runner, single plenum, single throttle body with one intake valve and no trick cam timing....... can do both.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

In otherwords no CURRENT made TPI replacement intake! I can buy that.

BTW, the engine above is the built up 4.3 Vortec in my 1987 2 -Dr GMC Jimmy 4x4. The torque curve on the dyno is nearly FLAT from 1,600-4,800 RPM. I think if GM hadn't built the LT1 that is where the TPI would have ended up. Just some little problems such as bad spiders and sticking tuning valves plagued the system.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Double

BadSS

Well,,, FIRST Injections hasn’t done much testing on the intake since they bought the casting and manufacturing rights from Electromotive (after they bought the intake rights from Air Sensors). They’ve done absolutely no marketing. There was limited media coverage years ago and recently there has been no coverage on the intake. Plus, while I personally prefer the FIRST over the SuperRam because it has more potential when modified to feed seriously flowing heads for big cube, high horsepower applications,,,, the power curve (on typical applications) is not that much different than the SuperRam’s (box stock to box stock). That’s the “problems” the FIRST intake had back then,, and the same problems it has now (although now you can buy just the intake system,, something you couldn't do back then and why they're not many old units on the road).

Shagwell

BadSS
there's the man I've been looking for. - Some one actually running a FIRST system vs other intakes. - I would agree. Box stock vs box stock, it may not be much better. But I also agree it has more potential. - I still think it would work really good on a 305, even "box stock", plus have the ability to grow with the car.

BadSS

I agree it would work well on a 305 and there is no question the FIRST has much more "room to grow" than any of the long/longer runner intakes utilizing a stock type TPI base. That's especially so if you don't mind welding up the crease in middle of the runners (just on the back side would do) and siamesing them to decrease the effective length of the runner.

On my 355 capable of making around 400 fwhp with a carb:

If I never raced the car, I would have kept the ported stock base and modified SLP runners on the car (5500/5300 shifts). Absolutely violent throttle response off idle and around the stall speed. The thing would skate the street tires from a 2nd gear kick. An absolute blast to drive,, but it dropped off really fast around 5700rpm.

If I only raced the car, I would have kept the StealthRam on the car (6400/6200 shifts). You couldn't screw up a launch with the thing at the track, but it was just not that fun to drive around town compared to the TPI/SLP combo. Plus, I didn't like running the stamped steel rocker arms up that high. It's without a doubt the intake to run if you don't mind running a lot of cam, gear, and converter. You can make some serious power and with the right combination,, serious ETs with it.

Since I like to drive and race the car occationally,,, and don't want to run a lot of cam, gear, or converter,,,, the FIRST unit is a perfect medium (5800/5600 shifts). My IROC was .1 seconds faster at the 60ft mark than the HSR, .2 seconds faster at the 1/8, and runs about the same ET in the quarter (box stock intake). It's not as violent as the TPI/SLP combo (peak torque is higher in the RPM band), but it has much more throttle response than the HSR and a blast to drive around town. It runs about the same ETs shifting as high as 6000,,, so it's not that it isn't still pulling at 6000 rpm as much as by shifting at 5600 or 5800 rpm, you're able to take advantage of the huge torque boost from the intake. In fact, I have to shift the car at 5800 out of 1st, because at 5600 rpm the slicks will lay down 2-3 feet of rubber. Needless to say,, I like the intake and others would as well if they took the plunge.

Shagwell

another thing(rehashing a previous statement) - its emissions legal. for me that doesn't matter, but for many, it does.

GOY

So hold on here - your first statement is that not enough testing has been done Then you state .....

....but of course, without the testing required, right? So wait, what do you base that statement on? Oh wait I got it.....

So then you go on and on about your SINGLE combination, but have yet to say **** about the hundreds of 11 second natural aspirated supreram cars out there. Have you given any credit to your inability to create a proper prom for the superram? Could that have cost you that tenth or two? Of course not, you and the FIRST setup are infoulable, right?

I've posted solid information concerning the setup - until you can post your solid information concerning the SR comparo, STFU.




Also, Shagwell - the Superram has a CARB expemption number... the FIRST???!?! .......NO!!!......

GOY

I'm going to draw a little more juice out of this quote.....

I've posted a graph the "Power Curve" chart of the stock FIRST unit.... it EXACTLY MIMICS any other single runner LTR setup with the same cam and heads, just adding additional power in those areas.. That is KNOWN to not be the case with the superram. The superram, in every case, moves the powerband up, while adding additional power throughout the majority of the curve with exception to where another intakes peak is. In one sentence you will say it (the powerband) doesn't move that much in comparison to the SR, in another, you will talk about the GREAT torque gain and low RPM power over the superram.... which is it there ace, does it move it or not?

BadSS

First thing, sport, you need to take a class in reading comprehension or at least take your medication before going off on some confused rant. I shared my recent personal experiences between a heavily ported TPI base and modified SLP runners, the Holley STEALTHRAM (not the Accel SuperRam just to clarify), and the FIRST unit on the same car (yes that means one or single). A stock 88 350 chip was used with each combination dialed in the best as it could be using base timing and fuel pressure adjustments. Incapable of burning or lack of time to learn,,, more like lazy since I have the equipment,, all means the same to me.

I’ve never personally run a SuperRam (I have run the Holley StealthRam,, just in case you’ve become confused again), nor would I run the SuperRam unless I lived somewhere requiring a different intake to be CARB legal. I’ve seen a number of SuperRam dyno article (some back from the late 80s) installed a SuperRam about 15 years ago and have tweaked on a couple over the years. There’s no doubt it will deliver the goods – never claimed it couldn’t. The number of 11 or 10 second cars using the SuperRam is irrelevant. How does that change my personal experiences with the FIRST ? It certainly doesn’t change the FACT that the FIRST unit has more potential (once modified) than the SuperRam. Can I show proof? You wouldn’t even have to ask if you had actually seen one in person and had a clue.

Speaking of, how about clueing us in on what you’re running and whether or not you’ve ever changed an intake on your car. If so, what kind of gain did you see? Since you’re obviously knowledgeable on how much a precise tune can help a mid 12 second 355 that you’ve never seen,,, how about telling us how much ET you dropped with one of your custom tunes on what ever you’re driving. Let’s see if you can provide some personal insight without relying on a text book equation or magazine article. If you can’t maybe you’re the one that needs to STFU.

85rocker

hey people

although this thread started with a 305 buildup it took a road to some interesting discussion on FIRST systems, Super Rams and HSR's.

How about lets keep focused on the subject material?

regards

GOY

You're right, I've never seen one - I have no clue. Great assumption.

This says it all:
Seen one, owned one, sold one. What I truely find inspirational about this quote is how you will cast a shadow over your lack of evidence by attempting to discredit me. I'm sure after you typed that you had to have a momment of doubt where you would wonder if someone would just see right through that. Longer runners, smaller plenum vs. large plenum with shorter (but not too short) runners - ask anyone that's been racing long enough and they will give you the clear cut answer to this equation of potential.

The only two intakes I haven't played with was a miniram and a HSR. I've played with an LT1 intake conversion breifly, a single plane EFI conversion breifly, SR, FIRST, and LTR's. The superram provided the best 3000-6000 RPM AVERAGE power. Greater average power will produce a faster car than high peak numbers. The super short runner intakes were GREAT for producing a semi-flat torque curve, but the problem was that the curve was never high enough (less average torque was produced - but what was produced was consistant over a broad range) - where as a tuned intake tended to force the torque bar higher in certain area's. The FIRST intake had good street manners - and the SR wasn't suffering either. It just so happened that the FIRST setup ran out of breath around 5400 RPM, and it's torque bar was too well tuned for lower RPM's. In other words - it created a really high peak, but once the torque started to fall off - it was SUDDEN! Made more peak torque than the SR, but not only at a lower RPM, but it made less AVERAGE torque.

The SR on the other hand, felt much more confident past 4500-5000 RPM, in all of the "tested" engine combinations (multiple cars, 1 I owned), without giving up all that "Hard torque pull" the short runner intakes did. On top of it, it made an average of 21 extra ft/lbs over the FIRST from the tested ranges of 2800-6000 RPM when on top of a 383 (224/234 .480 w/ heavily ported Edelbrock RPM heads). That's not peak, that's AVERAGE torque. Remember, your engine is constantly changing speed in a race - peaks are inmaterial other than where they occur and how fast the torque falls off after them. On my 360 w/ WP heads and hot cam, the FIRST intake felt more impressive, but again the SR produced greater average torque (a less impressive 13ft/lbs more average from 3k up) and noticably more upper RPM power.

My car was a MAF car, the other a SD. Just for reference - we both tried the FIRST and SR..... we both had superram's after all was said and done. The LTR's aren't being compared, because we both had stock heads at the time that we played with those, but since I'm sure you will "Need" to know - I favored the Accel LTR's over a non-radically ported set of SLP's.

My experience, your experience different sure - but if you are going to agrue about manifold "potential" keep in mind the limiting factors of plenum size and runner length/shape. The FIRST has the air make a 180 bend from the plenum to the head - the SR, 90 degrees. Shorter (but not too short), less bends, and with more air avaliable... almost any experienced engine builder will tell you there's no debate to be had here.

Any further arguement will be had with yourself and your self hatred.

BadSS

No hatred here. You're the one that confused the issue, went off on a rant, and started the personal attacks. I wasn't trying to hide anything, I made a retalatory cheap shot at you, thinking for sure you were a poser based on your previous posts. You must have been busy over the past few months because it wasn't that long ago you were asking about runner diameters for the SuperRam and FIRST unit. Kudos, on your extremely quick learning curve. I'm lucky if I have the time to work on my own stuff here lately. Too bad you couldn't have shared your personal experiences before your rant.

Your information is interesting as all the old dyno comparisons I've seen had the FIRST generating marginally better power at the lower end of the curve and the SuperRam generating marginally more power at the top of the curve,,,, and generating near identical averages. Goes to show you, you can't always go by what's printed. I (as I'm sure others would as well) would love to see the raw numbers from your testing if you have them or the time to post them. I'll say that the power doesn't drop off suddenly on my 355 with the FIRST unit, and that's with the stock gaskets over hanging the ports. There's no question in my mind there's at least 150 - 200 rpm with a gasket match port job and custom cut gaskets. Did you run the stock gaskets, trim them, or make your own for the FIRST?

We're on different levels when talking about potential. I don't know if you missed it earlier,,, but when I'm talking about potential (once modified), I'm talking about welding up the center crease in the FIRST's runners and siamese them to the halfway point of the runner - you'll increase the effective size of the FIRST's plenum and you'll end up with roughly the same effective runner length of the SuperRam. The plenum to runner transition would still be a little more efficient on the SuperRam, but the SuperRam base can't hang with the amount of air that can move through a ported FIRST's base opened up to 1.9" - 2" . No way, no how.