TPI_ElCamino

I bought an 89 Trans Am GTA, it's and L89 TPI the usual, I am planning on putting the engine into my 86 El Camino which currently has an L69(5.0). I think I can just clean out the GTA, clean out the Elkie, and pull a swithceru right? What ever knowledge or know how you can impart on me for this would be greatly apreciated. I am relitively well auto educated and can pull it off, but anything you can save me from finding out the hardway is great.

Guest

You'll have a fun time hooking up the wires from the underdash harness (IP harness) and some of the wires from the ECM that go to the fuse box and neutral safety switch. There are differences in the factory firewall grommet style and location, your choice what you would like to do there, I used an aftermarket harness.
The power steering pump had some issues too, but I dont remember what the problem was, I think it was the location of the factory return hose (metal part) on the F-body that was the problem.
I am pretty sure that the factory exhaust manifolds will not work from the F-body, I *think* the driver side is ok but passenger side doesnt fit right. Headers might not be a bad idea.

What trans is in the El Camino? I think I would use the 200-4r if thats what you have rather than swapping the 700.

The AntiModerator

A few issue back I Chevy Hi-Performance did an issue on G-bodies. I believe that they did some sort of G-body tpi swap. I'll try to find the article by tomorrow if I can remember.

There is also a guy, I'm noy sure if he is on this forum or not, who put a tpi into his montecarlo ss. He is on the web, and I think there might be some links on one of the G-body sites. He had blue slp runners amongst other things. There is a member here, FORMULAno87 who has a G-body and is planning to do the swap. His name is jeff. He can tell you where to find the site and more about the swap...

Good luck

------------------

My car is fast.

Greasemonkey

Stop over by Montecarloss.com. 88SST-56 and JMD among other people can help you out on this, as there are several people over there who have done this. I think some of them hang out over here and might reply to this.

FORMULAno87

You'd think someone would write a book just for the G-Body TPI swap. Hey, i could make a fortune.....
heres a link to a TPI g-body:
http://y-t-g.com/88monte/index.html


------------------
daily beaten 87 formula
87 Monte SS project car

airdeano

tpi_elcamino,
pretty easy swap. especially if your swapping
mills. fuel sending unit from the 87 4.3 tbi
will work fine, delco ep284 fuel pump, grab
that return line for the 87 4.3 tbi MC,
dont waste your time with that factory harness
you can use a street&performance harness.
3 hot, 1 ground, fuel pump and your done.
this is for a speed density system.
90-92 computer (7730), and a chip.
unless you find a harness diagram or find
someone whose chased all those wires.
have fun... i did..
airdeano

DFI79MC

iTrader: (1)

I did this swap too. I put a Maf TPI in a 79 Monte carlo. If you have any questions, feel free to throw me an E-mail.
TPI79MC@aol.com

robert1

iTrader: (3)

I also did it, and left the accessories as is. I put a '90 system in, but mounted the extras as on an '87 TPI. I even found the '87 Camaro cruise connected right up to my '87 SS,and worked like a champ. I only changed the top AC line to a Camaro one so it ran underneath the water pump. I kept the engine fan for the extra cooling. I might have a computer and mild Street & Performance chip for you. I went to an adjustable computer and won't need it.

442guy

i did this in my 86 442, twice actually, i had the tpi 2004r combo (i do NOT recomend this) as the trans doesnt shift right because its meant for a carb.you need a 700r4 from a tpi car(NOT a carbed car)for it to idle(5-600rpm) and shift right. also, youll have to use the elco motor mount shells, the camaro ones are slightly different. for the fuel pump just drop the tank use a section of rubber hose to clamp the pump and filter to the inlet tube, solder the ground to the sender ground, and run a positive out of the tank. the rest of the lines i use hardline and -6an fittings/steelbraided hose.
i actually rewired my entire car with a camaro dashboard and engine harness,(very time consuming and frustrating) but i found on the second swap that the painless harness is easier. its actually long enough for a g body. andto mount the 700r4 tranny, you need a th350 crossmember, which has to be modified,(cut about 3/4 on and inch off the mounting pad to clear the trans pan, and drill a new bolt hole 1/2 inch back further) i used a 2004r shifter and shifter cable/brackets.

442guy

i was referrin to the inlet tube INSIDE the gas tank for an intank pump incase i was too vague.

Guest

Trans shifting doesnt have anything to do with the carb or FI, something went wrong in your swap.

TPI_ElCamino

Also on the exhaust part of the deal, i had planned on using full length headers. Now should i get ones with AIR or get rid of the smog pump alltogether, keep in mind i have to pass emisions next september. Also where or how can or should i put the O2 sensor(s). I already have true dual w/o cats and was waiting on buying headers until i got the engine in and figured out what i need. And should i do any rebuilding of the engine? I got rod bearings at 60k i has 101k on it now, i was thinking geardrive and rings at the least, but maybe just geardrive. The less money i put into it now, the faster it gets in my car. I was reading about knocking out the walls inside the plenum and siamesing the intake runners, and uping the fuel pressure, are these things is should just take the time to do, or worry about it later?

Thanks for your other feedback guys, keep it coming!

[This message has been edited by TPI_ElCamino (edited October 14, 2001).]

jms

iTrader: (1)

This very swap is covered in "Chevrolet TPI & TBI Engine Swapping".

The book is VERY helpful and is published by JTR (Jags That Run) out of Livermore, CA.

I got my copy from Summit. The book says their web site is www.jagsthatrun.com.

Get the book. You won't be sorry.
jms

Lov2xlr8

Just wait till I take over the government and you all will see, every one gets issued a big block, all small blocks are banned! if you dont produce 500 or more foot pounds of torque you wil be shot and your family deported. you will need a special licencse to have an auto, everyone else is forced to have a six speed. Carburaters are her by banned and you will be given some kind of very shinny polished fuel injection. All civics are ordered destroyed and deficated apon, all must comply, .....thank you , that is all

442guy

madmax, something didnt go wrong, the throw of the throttle lever on a tuned port throttle body is less than that of a carb. when you floor the tpi, it doesnt pull the kickdown cable as far foward as a carb,makeing it shift late/weird. same thing with trannys from a tbi car. ive fried a few overdrives because its impossible to get the tv right. but i never had that problem with a tranny out of a tuned port car.

Greasemonkey

442guy: Did you use the correct T.V. cable? From what I've heard you need the one for a TPI engine, and I've never heard of anyone having probems with the 2004-R working.

Guest

12,000 miles and no shifting problem here. GN's (and TTA's) have FI and run the 200-4r as well.

Actually since I have one of all here (an LG4 powered G-body with 200-4r, a TPI powered G-body with 200-4r, and a TPI powered F-body with 700-r4) I did some measurements. Both TPI's not surprisingly have the same travel, measured 5 1/16" from the bracket face to the center of the pin where the TV cable hooks up with the throttle shut, and 6 7/16" with the throttle open, for a total travel of 1 3/8" from idle to WOT. The LG4 car measured 4 3/4" from the bracket face to the center of the TV cable pin, and at WOT (moved the choke cam out of the way just in case... but it didnt matter) it measured 6 1/16". Thats a total travel of 1 5/16" on the LG4 car, slightly less than the TPI but not by a significant amount. The cable will of course require some adjustment due to the difference in distance between the bracket face and throttle pin, but thats an easy correction to make with your thumb and a couple fingers.

I'd have to say like I did before that something went wrong with your swap.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Whew, lots of stuff to say.

- TPI Elky, - You have an LG4, not an L69. The L69 was used only in f-bodies and the 83-88 SS Monte. No reason not to use the GM harness. Get a Helms for 86 for your truck, and an 89 'bird Helms. Figure out which wires are the same on the IP harness, and run them together. I used a Cutlass ECM harness plug, and a 'bird dash harness plug and soldered together the ones that were the same. Then adapted the remaining ones.

Use the stock 78-88 SBC Elky motor mounts; they'll bolt right to it and sit the motor correctly. F ones are similar, but just a touch off.

madmax - the G-body PS pump has a downwards pointing line. I didn't see a problem with the serp. pump line in the cars it's been swapped into, but I dunno off hand; If I was keeping the L69 TPI forever, I'd get a Monte pump, and use an F valve (which is what GM services all pumps with now: http://www.spots.ab.ca/~jmd/pics/power_steering/ ) Matter of fact, a car that I assisted with a couple years back is in NJ, I'll ask him for pics

The Chevy Hi Performance tpi swap SUCKED, and you can ignore it with a clean conscience. The jagsthatrun.com books are excellent; buy the TPI & TBI swapping one, in addition to the Helms you'll need for 86 & 89.

Ashley has the blue runners, and he's going to a holley 4bbl style intake w/ his 383 when that goes in.

Along what airdeano said - I would try and get the 4.3L Elky tank also; it's better baffled (yes, I know from experience)

Street and Performance, AND Painless both suck. Deleting functions is not the way to get a TPI to run right. When they permanently ground the PN switch so it doesn't set a VSS code, it's not correct, it won't run right, and don't start arguing because my car scans, codes, and doesn't throw codes becaues I did it right. Sorry guys, but limp home is not the way to fly, so if you have a GM harness, use it!

Hey TPI79MC, is there a hole on the PS of the firewall since there's no ECM? I have a 78 Monte too... (project in waiting, haven't looked in a while )

The 200-4R works great; you just need an 85-92 TPI TV cable. The car that's now in NJ has an 84 Hurst Olds 4OZ 200-4R (the real deal) with a shift kit, and does really well. Your problems, 442, are not an indication that the 200-4R doesn't work w/ TPI. There are lots of intricacies with governors & such in the 200-4R, and if yours died, it may not have been rightly cal'd.

Also, 442, to mount a 700-R4, you keep the 200-4R crossmember (which is bolt in for 84-88 frames) and get a Caprice tailhousing. Done. It can be done w/ the older crossmember; a friend did it that way, but bolt in I usually like better than kustom.

TPI Elky - there are quite a few full length headers, I know Ashley has 'em, and the guy w/ the 84 in NJ is putting some in:

http://www.monte-list.nu/html/images...dman68600a.jpg

http://www.monte-list.nu/html/images...dman68600c.jpg

Personally I am using Hooker 2050's from Jet Hot, stock L69 cat, and they are damn nice.

Lov2xlr8 - thanks for not voting for democrats.

442guy - also, the Throttle valve in a stock 200-4R should be upgraded with any size engine over a 305 IMHO....

Matthew
3 78-88 g-bodies not mentioned plus...

------------------
jmd
1986 SS with...
86LB9 TPI atop the original L69, Hooker emissions legal PN 2050 headers, stock L69 cat (yes, a real one), hydraulic clutch T5, Energizer 272 cam, chargedair.com fan, Global West CNR-88-C negative roll kit, 89 Iroc front springs, CC635 Moog rear springs and a whole bunch of other fun stuff

442guy

the 2004r i was useing was a kzf trans code(442). madmax, i didnt fry that tranny it just shifted later than my liking. i was useing a tpi700r4 kickdown cable. either it banged though the gears at too high an rpm,or i adjust it and it jumps around in and out of gear. also you said the throw of the tpi was 1 and 3/8 and the throw of the carb was 1 and 5/16 even though it is a small difference, one click of the cable can make a huge difference on the way the trans shifts. so ill stick with my own views. how does your 2004r shift? light or does it shift too high?(relatively).

442guy

also you said ttas and gns dont have a problem, but they dont have tuned port, they have sfi and were mad for the trans. but alas, if everyones got 2004rs and they work smooth and great maybe the 20 or so engine swaps ive done all were wrong! by the way, ive got a 2004r in my car now from a 83 hurst olds, a 3ozf trans,with the lightning rods, and manual valvebody. maybe ill be running that with tpi, so i hope im wrong.

442guy

i keep forgetting something, the 700r4 mount from a police car is hard to find where i am from, the th350 crossmember took my five minutes to do with a handcrank drill and sawzall. but i agree no modifing is better, also i thing g-force crossmembers makes a 700r4 double hump crossmemberfor tru duals. not positive though. i think thats it

jmd

iTrader: (4)

last time I heard, the caprice tailhousing was less than $40.xx from GM. It is from ANY 700-R4 equipped B/D body including some Fleetwood Caddies. Wagons, squad cars, pedestrian stuff.

I have emissions so "trew duels" can go to ******* heaven, AFAIAC.... No offense meant...

Matthew

Guest

It doesnt shift light or high, shifts just like its supposed to. Only mod besides a Trans-Go shift kit and higher stall is a GN shift governor.

I could go and measure the exact amount with a micrometer, but 1/16" of an inch isnt much and I was only measuring with a ruler with gradients of 1/16" so it could be even less. Thats not enough to cause a problem anyways.

DFI79MC

iTrader: (1)

No dice on the hole JMD, I had to break out the hole saw and I ended up pounding it through behind the distibutor. Looks good now that it is done. I believe you have saw a pic of the car already. It is the blue one with the spoiler.

TPI_ElCamino

Ok,
I started tearing into the GTA today, i have a heafty chunk of the wiring removed, and the dash is esentially out. Now, on the passanger side kick pannel where the wiring comes in and then splits, one plugs into the ECM and the other is like a dash harness, what in that dash harness do i need to wire into my existing system? Off that subject on the passanger side of the engine above the oil fill and exhaust manifold is a black box with two plugs coming into it from the bottom, you know the one i mean? What and the hell is it? And should i use the elkies accesory aray, i.e. a/c pump, alternator, or should i swap to the GTA one with the serpentine belt? Also what is the best way to actually pull the engine, what should i take of before hand, where can i bolt up the hoist? What are the bare requirements of the electrical system, what can i eliminate, and how do i go about doing so.

This is only the start of my questions. This is the first of my three days off this week and i want everything out of the GTA that i need, so a break down of that would be great.

airdeano

jmd,
Street and Performance, AND Painless both suck. Deleting functions is not the way to get a TPI to run right. When they permanently ground the PN switch so it doesn't set a VSS code, it's not correct, it won't run right, and don't start arguing because my car scans, codes, and doesn't throw codes becaues I did it right. Sorry guys, but limp home is not the way to fly, so if you have a GM harness, use it!
we dont ground the P/N switch to prevent VSS
codes. we have a fully functioning 'closed
loop' system. the only purposes to use a VSS
signal are for EGR (emissions) and torque
converter control. this is no 'limp home'
harness. for emissions we have to wire a P/N
switch and VSS. so the EGR will work correctly.
how does your 'correctly' wired harness run
any better than our harnesses? im not trying
to argue or flame, just want to know why we
suck? what codes do our harnesses throw?
weve got a truck with a TPI and 300k miles
with our harness and we have no codes for the
ten years its been there. this truck scans
just like a 90-92 camaro. im sure youve done
a fine job on your harness.. we do to and have
many awards and businesses that use our product
with no glitches.
airdeano

bigblue

I wasn't too happy with the way it didn't know when to be locked up or in overdrive. No more 2004r!

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Probably, but I see so many Montes come through the email / ftp / www LOL... Email me

TPI Elky: You need to figure out which wires going *to* the dash harness from the ECM harness are the same and match them up. Then add the ones that aren't in the carb'd car.

If you have 87 - up heads, use the serpentine system. At worse, you'll be lengthening wires for the AC & alt.

BigBlue: that car needed a stick anyway! You're probably right about the lockup in more daily driving...

------------------
jmd
1986 SS with...
86LB9 TPI atop the original L69, Hooker emissions legal PN 2050 headers, stock L69 cat (yes, a real one), hydraulic clutch T5, Energizer 272 cam, chargedair.com fan, Global West CNR-88-C negative roll kit, 89 Iroc front springs, CC635 Moog rear springs and a whole bunch of other fun stuff

jmd

iTrader: (4)

I really don't have to argue, when you just shot your own argument in the foot. VSS helps the ECM because at 3000rpm in 3rd gear, the motor needs different fuel than the motor at 3000rpm in 5th gear. VSS is NOT just for Emissions & Tq converter. Adding the speed the vehicle is going is needed for the fuel and spark to be right. It's another dimension for the ECM to feed the motor right, even on the 4bbl ECM systems (that some of us remove LOL)

I'll back off on the harness argument for now. If you simply don't hook a VSS up to it, what's it do though? Set a code or no?

Sorry for being so sharp. Just tired of the "delete as many functions you don't understand" of most companies doing harnesses.

------------------
jmd
1986 SS with...
86LB9 TPI atop the original L69, Hooker emissions legal PN 2050 headers, stock L69 cat (yes, a real one), hydraulic clutch T5, Energizer 272 cam, chargedair.com fan, Global West CNR-88-C negative roll kit, 89 Iroc front springs, CC635 Moog rear springs and a whole bunch of other fun stuff

airdeano

jmd
in both MAF and SD systems there is no requirement
for speed vs load
for speed vs tps
for speed vs gear selection auto or stick
the only speed adjustments are:
egr: on/off
tcc: lock/unlock
4l60e: 1-2 upshift 2-3 upshift 3-4 upshift etc...
if no vss signal is sent then its thinking your
doing all of this action in your driveway.
think about it, in park or neutral no speed
input, no code....
only until you engauge the p/n switch or
gear select do you have to show vss. so not hooking
the up vss, how can it set a code if the system isnt
showing gear or mph.
if the VSS shows 1mph locked then
youll get a code because its showing input.
there is no load compensation
via a mapped table or logic function for speed.
the MAF and MAP determine load vs TPS and vs
VE. we dont eliminate because its not needed.
we eleminate because a street rod doesnt want
some ugly EGR booger in the middle of their
$1200 polished manifold. eliminate the P/N
switch because the steering column has no provision.
but when they go on a cruise they dont want a
cloud of black smoke wasting their $6000 paint
job. weve been doing this too long to **** 'em
off because something doesnt work properly.
i do understand the elimination process and
that other harness companies can not support
the reasons they do (knock offs). but sucks?
ouch.. thank you for addressing my reply.
thank you for your concern of my foot though.
^5 jmd
airdeano


[This message has been edited by airdeano (edited October 19, 2001).]

hotpowerandperf

>in both MAF and SD systems there is no requirement
for speed vs load<
true
>for speed vs tps<
true
>for speed vs gear selection auto or stick<
true
>the only speed adjustments are:
egr: on/off<
EGR is actually turned on and of by park neutral switch. This is why they tell you to lie to the computer and tell it it is in park. Otherwise the computer could think the EGR was on and add spark. The EGR diagnostic test requires a specific minimum speed that is part of the cal. Having an active EGR with no test is a recipe for trouble.
>tcc: lock/unlock<
true
>4l60e: 1-2 upshift 2-3 upshift 3-4 upshift etc...<
not on 1227165 or 1227730 neither have the drivers.
>if no vss signal is sent then its thinking your
doing all of this action in your driveway.
think about it, in park or neutral no speed
input, no code....
only until you engauge the p/n switch or
gear select do you have to show vss. so not hooking
the up vss, how can it set a code if the system isnt
showing gear or mph.
It can set if it is showing gear but no speed
if the VSS shows 1mph locked<
This is virtually impossible due to the mechanics of the sensor
>then youll get a code because its showing input.<
The quals for a code 24 are mph less than 3 mph
rpm greater than 1000
rpm less than 4600
tps less than 1.9 %
MAP less than 22 KPA
All for longer than 3 sec
This can only happen when the car is moving(closed throttle decel) with no VSS signal

>there is no load compensation
via a mapped table or logic function for speed.
the MAF and MAP determine load vs TPS and vs
VE.<
VE is determined by look up in the table that is MAP vs RPM. There is an addition VE tables that is a value at each RPM. Additionally the MAP value is used in the pulse width calc(in addition to the VE lookup) TPS is used to determine "pump shot"(delta TPS) and power mode.
>we dont eliminate because its not needed.
we eleminate because a street rod doesnt want
some ugly EGR booger in the middle of their
$1200 polished manifold.<
You may eliminate the EGR by changing 1 bytes of the cal. Why go to all this trouble other than a belief that these parts do nothing else and cost money to include.
>eliminate the P/N
switch because the steering column has no provision.<
I routinely install these on floor shifters with no problems.
>but when they go on a cruise they dont want a
cloud of black smoke wasting their $6000 paint
job.<
No one does
>weve been doing this too long to **** 'em
off because something doesnt work properly.
i do understand the elimination process and
that other harness companies can not support
the reasons they do (knock offs)<

These are some of the things that require a vss input
TCC lockup (auto)
Upshift light (manual)
IAC position learning
Cooling fan control
Determine if manual transmission is in gear (compare VSS vs RPM)
Disable some idle speed control if manual in gear (see previous item)
Disable idle learn if moving
Enable idle learn if moving with manual in neutral
Prevent DecelFuelCutOff if manual in neutral
Prevent DecelFuelCutOff at very slow speeds
Top speed limiter


[This message has been edited by hotpowerandperf (edited October 25, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by hotpowerandperf (edited October 25, 2001).]

hotpowerandperf

Along what airdeano said - I would try and get the 4.3L Elky tank also; it's better baffled
(yes, I know from experience)

Please point me to you source that states that the FI and NonFI tanks are different. I can not dispute you on this one(with facts) but the NonFI tank has baffles and the carb pickup point forward and to the passenger side. Good baffles are required in either situation. Do you have a catalog that shows this?

Street and Performance, AND Painless both suck. Deleting functions is not the way to
get a TPI to run right. When they permanently ground the PN switch so it doesn't set a
VSS code, it's not correct, it won't run right, and don't start arguing because my car
scans, codes, and doesn't throw codes becaues I did it right. Sorry guys, but limp home
is not the way to fly, so if you have a GM harness, use it!

Painless has all functions of a factory harness including VSS, EGR, CCP, AIR. All of these are included free of charge. The installation manual is available of the web. Read it and it will tell you what you have to hook up. See my previous post about why they say to ground the PK/Neut switch if not using VSS, but make no mistake using VSS is a user choice (Basically if the installer is to cheap to spring for a VSS they keep you from blowing up your engine.)

BTW use the GN pickup as it has the correct connector for the fuel pump. Otherwise you will need to find a fuel pump that takes a 1/4 spade and a 5/16 spade connector or you have to solder in the ground wire. The return tube is a large heat sink and takes a high power soldering iron to solder to it. You can not do it with your average 35W iron

John

Heart of Texas Power and Performance

dyeager535

"Originally posted by hotpowerandperf:
[B]Along what airdeano said - I would try and get the 4.3L Elky tank also; it's better baffled
(yes, I know from experience)

Please point me to you source that states that the FI and NonFI tanks are different. I can not dispute you on this one(with facts) but the NonFI tank has baffles and the carb pickup point forward and to the passenger side. Good baffles are required in either situation. Do you have a catalog that shows this?"

I'm new to this board, but I know a bit about the A/G bodies. While I can't speak of an Elky TBI tank, I can of the Monte and GN tanks. They are BOTH baffled much more so than the non EFI motors. I have an '86 Monte 4.3 tank sitting in the back of my truck waiting to be shipped, and one bolted into my '85 Cutlass Salon. (which does not fit correctly FWIW, fill necks are different Monte vs Cutlass)

In any case, the non FI tanks have a steel baffle that prevents fuel "slosh" to the rear, somewhat. (I thought that meant it was special The FI tanks have an enormous amount of PLASTIC baffling inside, although the exterior of the tank is identical. The FI baffles are somewhat of a spiral design, and you can't see the sides nor the bottom of the tank due to it....it is not just one or two pieces, but a labyrinth of passageways.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Exactly why I consider this limp home.

Exactly my point. Which again, makes your harness a limp home one, when setup as you have described. But...

So you're saying that the ECM gives the same fuel for 2500rpm in 3rd gear as it gives for 5th gear, all else being equal? That'd be fun.


Thank you for bringing this into the clear.

This is where we diverted to different paths.

I don't honestly remember where the PN is on a third gen (shifter on automatics?), and my whole argument here is that any 81-up GM speedo (until they went electric speedos) has VSS provision, 2 pulse through 89. Why delete it? My car has it on the column. Why delete it? The f-bodies have VSS easily, so why not use it? The car is in limp home (my definition) if you don't use it, and it's not that big a deal to include.

I TOTALLY understand that you have a customer base who wants a simple, no emissions, no BS swap. This is limp home. That's fine for some people. If you want it to run right, as designed, that's not the way to do it. That's my point.

This is why you probably do more volume than TPIS or Howell, but their cars will out run yours. You can think I'm a **** , but limp home doesn't get it for the last eke of power or the mpg that some people demand.