1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Ok guys just got back from the dyno session. Finally was able to sneak by the 350rwhp mark. I will attach the dyno graphs as they speak for themselves. We quit the pulls around the 6200rpm mark as I did not want to risk what happened at the last dyno pull. I have also posted the results using the SAE and the STD graphing methods. The reason for the STD graph is for the local guys to compare their numbers as that is what we have used in the past. Here are the results.

Agent13

iTrader: (6)

Interesting...



Good job Allen!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

What's interesting is I never thought the motor would still be making that much power up that high in the rpm range. I never built the motor that way so I'm a little reluctant to see how far it will go. Funny to see max power from a TPI unit at say 6300rpm. Everything was "tuned" to max out around the 5800 to 5900rpm range but it sure did not turn out that way.


On the first dyno pull we got 344rwhp and maybe 350rwtq. So that is very comparable to the other dyno. On that one we made two pulls and they were 346 and 345 respectively. So not much difference in these two dynos.

I also want to thank Kevin for the excellant job he did on the tuning. This dyno pull was on 91 octane so the power is there anytime. For those interested we wound up with something like 27-28 degrees around max torque and around 32-33 degrees above 5600rpm. The motor would just ping in the lower rpm's with anymore advance so we had to cut back on the timing in that area.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here is a data graph for those who are interested in such things. Notice the power has not let up at 6350rpm.

After looking at the Datamaster my duty cycle on the injectors only went up to 76%. That is with 50psi fuel pressure and 30# Ford racing injectors.

Agent13

iTrader: (6)

That is amazing...

Now you have me wondering how high will it peak.....

JohnC

iTrader: (1)

You, sir, are a genius. Now to go destroy my intake trying to replicate what you did.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

wow very impressive

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Regarding the TPI intake. Some of the guys here locally are doing some work on the Edelbrock TPI manifold. Things look real promissing so that you don't have to go to all the trouble that I did and get the same results.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

you sure that cam is in right?? that looks more like a very retarded cam install with power that high! haha WOW man those numbers are what i expected since your last runs with the XFI grind.

WOW again, those are impressive numbers.... still pulling near 6500 rpms!! jeeeeez

i hope my motor will perform like that not only are you making 370whp, your making 361wtq!!! thats impressive to have near same torque as hp with hp that high ! very nice results man

Burnout91

WOW! The curve looks like it levels off between 5300 and 5600, then starts to climb...and takes off again right at the end of the pull. That is some cool stuff, Allen. So, this run was with the torque converter locked?

Congratulations to all involved in the project!

Bill

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

that car should go a heck of a lot faster than 12.5's at 110mph. I'm thinking 12.0's at 115-116

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

That little dip in the graph is cause by the converter locking up at that 5600 or the tire spin hooking up at 5600. I was there to witness his performance. Allen car should run in the 12.0-11.70 range at 114-117mph shifting at 6300.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Thanks to everyone. Kevin got the A/F ratio and timing dialed in in the upper rpm range. Remember last time there was no tuning. This is probably why the horsepower is still climbing at 6350rpm as it had already peaked and drop off last time and also the drive shaft broke. I picked up a solid 30-35rwhp in that range.

Regarding the dip in the mid 5000rpm range we are still getting spark retard in that area. I have since had a chance to review the datalog and dyno tables. You will notice in the above table the A/F ratio is getting close to 13.2 around peak torque and VE. IMHO that is too lean for that area and I would rather it was around 12.8 in that range. So I will have Kevin add some fuel in the 4800 to 5200rpm cell. I also agree that the torque converter is probably causing some of this and yes it should have been locked or was locking up. Going from a standing start this might not be that big of an issue.

So for the LA F-Body Invasion I will add maybe 2-3 gallons of 100 octane gasoline to bring the octane rating up some from the 91 octane that was run on the dyno. Hopefully that will bring the knock under control in that area and produce more power under the curve.

I also want to thank Dyno Don for the excellant exhaust system he installed on this car. For shorty headers and custom exhaust I don't think you can do any better.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yep, makes me wonder if goin with longtubes and the hassles i had to install them and still needing custom exhaust to even connect them together was worth the effort i think dyno don's exhaust would support my car

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Oh wow, the 370 RWHP was SAE? I thought we set the thing to STD. 380 RWHP, that's just awesome!! There must be something to your 2 3/4" y-pipe exhaust over my 2 1/2" y-pipe exhaust, because you're making more RWHP thru an automatic than I am thru a manual. Your heads are slightly better but your camshaft is similar.

tshack

Thats some sweet numbers that ought to be one fun ride.

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

Man....my new build's numbers seem so pedestrain now, lol! This has got to be on the leading edge of power made on an NA tune port setup....

(looks like I'm going to go back to forced induction.... )

navyCM

iTrader: (3)

that is awesome! still climbing at that RPM range. hell of a job on that one. have fun w/ it.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Come on all you LSx combo's ...bring it on LOL

Guest

So when are you going to go back and find out what the peak power is? Chicken?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Thanks again guys for the nice comments. Here are some thoughts.

1. IMHO the long tube headers will not make that much more peak power but from what I have seen they provide more area under the curve. But it does show you can still do quite well with a good shorty header exhaust system.

2. For now I'm not inclined to find out what the peak power is. I will wait until I get the built 4L60E installed that has all the good guy parts in it and can handle the power and rpm. The TCI controller has a dyno mode that will be very usefull for dyno tuning purposes. Also the 700R4 transmission does not do well longevity wise at high rpms so I will keep the rpm's down for the F-Body invasion.

3. With peak power this high it does pose a dilema. From what the dyno graph shows it looks like my shift point should be maybe 6500 or 6600rpm. I'm going to have to think about this. One thought is the TCI 4L60E controller has the capability for two sets of shift tables (A&B) just by throwing a switch. I might have one set of tables for the track and another for the street and limit the number of times at the higher rpm. That way I can set up the optimum converter lock ups and have a higher maximum shift rpm for the track only.

4. PipeMax does show 2 3/4 inch exhaust tubing to be the best for our setups. For ORR's motor it shows 3"tubing.

5. Regarding port matching. My intake manifold is not port matched to the head. In fact there are some small steps. The head is opened up very close to a Felpro 1205 gasket but the intake manifold is not. The intake manifold is sized according to a program called EA Pro.

LMSkyliner

iTrader: (1)

now now. lets not get hasty



but these are very good numbers. They are very promising as far as i'm concerned, and definitly solidify the fact that im going to use the FIRST system for my build (which actually may be a LITTLE stronger than this.. it will be interesting to see).

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

One more thing. I believe we will see a 400rwhp motor with TPI come out of Dyno Don's shop this year. The things we have learned from my motor will provide a good base. With better heads such as the new AFR's Eliminator series and the new Dart Platinum series it makes the job easier.

With those heads you can now get up to 300cfm out of them with a little work or just buy the race series. We now know how to get more flow out of the Edelbrock TPI style intake manifold such as the Edelbrock to match the heads.

With the latest design cams, Dyno Don's exhaust and a good cold air intake system I don't see why not.

One more thought on my motor. Suppose the power peaks out at say 6400rpm and then flattens out to say 6600rpm before it starts falling off. That would mean the optimum shift point should be around 6700-6800rpm. Hmmmm. Maybe I should start considering a 7000rpm capable motor with TPI. Hahahahaha. Never thought it would come to this.

Burnout91

[One more thought on my motor. Suppose the power peaks out at say 6400rpm and then flattens out to say 6600rpm before it starts falling off. That would mean the optimum shift point should be around 6700-6800rpm. Hmmmm. Maybe I should start considering a 7000rpm capable motor with TPI. Hahahahaha. Never thought it would come to this. [/quote]

Now you're just having TOO MUCH fun with this whole thing! It must be nice...!

Bill

Brisk

iTrader: (25)

excellent results!

Zipdrive

Allen,

Excellent results. Espically slugging that through the 700r4! This 400 rwhp engine you mentioned, is it still 350 based?

Cheers.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

if its peaked at 6400 and flatlines to 6600 before fallin off, i'd still shift at 6500-6600.

but thats something to play with at the track to see how the drop between gear shifts effects the ET

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Now you're just having TOO MUCH fun with this whole thing! It must be nice...!"

Bill, my mind is in overtime with the possibilities. Those new AFR 195 competition series heads with the 300cfm flow sure look good. Forged internals. 11:1 compression which is doable with my new cam which still leaves a 8.5dcr which was the same with the 268XFI cam. Hmmmm maybe I will have to build a new long block with 7000rpm capabilities. Probably will take a year and a half to get it all done.

Guest

Where was this dyno? PM me the info.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes the 400rwhp would be based on a 355 motor. If mine was an M6 I would almost be there.

Hi Orr. Theoretically the way I understand it is the horsepower at the rpm point you shift at should match the horsepower where the rpm would be after the shift. That way you get the most horsepower under the curve. After I get the 4L60E installed we will revisit the dyno and see what the results are.

By the way I see no reason why you should not reach your goals. Your heads are slightly better than mine and you will have long tube headers with the correct collectors.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah that makes sense on the shift points. I'd have to look at my graph for my old combo but it did run best shifting at like 5200 rpms where stock trans shifted at. I tried 5500 and did no better. i peaked at roughly 5000 rpms but held that to 5100 or so

injdinjn

Very good Allan

BTW I run a 6800 rpm chip in mine.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hahaha. Hey Tom looks like I will have to follow suit.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Hey MADMAX and INJDINJN! Now you guys know what to do to get that Grand Prix to run. Change those FREAKIN' STOCK RUNNERS. They are killing your hp.

Vader

Nice work!

FWIW, the TH700-R4 can be built for higher RPM with pump work, better input and reaction shells, bonded seal pistons, and 5-pinion plantary.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Vader. You are correct. However I have already bought a 4L60E from Don and have the upgrade kit on order from Dana @ Pro Built. I figure for a "little" extra money I can convert to the 4L60E. Using the TCI controller I have almost complete control over the transmission. It has a lot of features I like. I can get it to do what I want every time. Makes things a lot easier at the races.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

didnt know the 700r4 dont like high rpms... i hope mine holds. its been beefed up 15K miles ago or so, but i didnt specify 6500rpm capability either... oh well, i start a new job soon and will probly have enough cash for a t56

Agent13

iTrader: (6)

That will be interesting...

Guest

Already put down some nasty numbers through those straws.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hey Alex, now how would I know that a TPI motor would want to rev up that high? Hahahaha. But now that it has shown its true potential I need to start thinking about how to safely harness that power. Also to retune it for peak power around 6400rpm or whatever the peak turns out to be. Need a motor capable of 7000 rpm for a little safety factor.

Here is what I have been thinking about.
1. Used Vortec/L98 2 bolt main block with splayed 4 bolt main caps installed.
2. Eagle forged steel crankshaft. "ESP"
3. Eagle forged steel rods. "ESP"
4. Forged pistons .030" over.
5. AFR 195 Eliminator Competition series heads./I will talk to Joe Sherman on these. He is a dealer and has some ideas on them.

I have everything else.

DynoSim sure likes those heads and especially with the 2.08" intake valves. Power is up everywhere. Might have to open up the intake manifold at the head a little but no big deal. EA Pro will tell the tale in that respect. I'm open for ideas on the parts.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

7000 rpm TPI.... i think you siamesed alittle tooo much

fully forged is definate a good idea.. balanced to 7000-7200 rpms is also a good idea

Should be an awesome motor

Or if you want less peak rpm, get a stroker crank.. 383... bring down the rpm level with the extra cubes that will want to breathe. with same cam and topend, you'll make similar power if not a tad bit more while turning less rpm plus loads more torque, thats the only real advantage other than turning less rpm. More average power meaning better track times

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Orr89RocZ

Thanks for the ideas. I figure with the slightly higher compression, the better combustion chamber and flow rate with the AFR heads it might very well extend the rpm range a little more. So shifting in the 6700rpm range may not be out of the question. I will build it for 7000rpm for a little leeway.

From what I have read on the 700R4 style of transmission the life will be shortend if you go much beyond say the 6200rpm range. With the power you will be making and the rpms you will be turning it will definetly shorten the life of it. You had some upgraded parts put in it and that may help depending on the parts.


I think a lot of us are anxious to see how your project turns out.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

wow now my lil 383 is gonna go hide in the corner now....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I told him i need to handle 450hp and torque when i had it rebuilt. He's a good trans guy but i have no idea what he did. I only need to survive like 2000-3000 miles this year and probly dozen or so track runs before winter Then i will have a T56 i thinks

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Also would like to note some things here on this build of yours 1989GTATransAm.

That 228/228 cam i feel should peak by 6000-6100 rpms, possibly 6200 but it clearly shows its still rising at 6300 or so. Thats a good cam I know LT1 guys running LE2 setups peak near 6200-6400 and they run a slightly larger 23x/23x cam with near .600 lift, but also on a tighter LSA 107-109 last time i checked

I'm curious as to what would happen if you didnt have to meet such strict smog requirements and run a similar grind on a tighter lsa for more overlap to feed higher rpms? Maybe abit more duration since that intake and head setup is LOVING it.

Also a set of longtubes and proper exhaust system. I dont think 400+whp is out of the question if you didnt have to meet smog stuff.

But then again, your on pace to hit near 400 with a 355 and be smog legal! thats such a great accomplishment and hard to believe

So your cam is really acting bigger than i expected. Your "TPI" 355 cali smogged is probly gonna make as much power as my non smoggin 383 with a big nasty cam and HSR !! haha

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

The thought of seeing the stock tach on the GTA going past the 12 'o clock position (6K) before a shift is daunting to say the least.

I predict 450 HP by 2010.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Orr

Don't sell yourself short on your motor. It has a lot of potential. With the compression ratio, the excellant heads, the long tube headers and the HSR intake you should very well be able to meet your goals. I still do not understand your cam on the exhaust side but then again I'm not a cam guru like Bret and he has a good reputation.

Regarding my setup I think you are correct if we did not have smog(mainly exhaust) to worry about out here I might be approaching 400rwhp. If I had a manual transmission instead of my auto I would be close already. That is figuring 20% loss for an auto and 15% loss for a manual trans.

Regarding the First Intake System. The runners in the intake manifold itself are longer than say the Edelbrock manifold. BadSS has measured them at around 8.125". The Edelbrock is I believe around 6.125". So I'm not sure the total runner length is less. Maybe the same or a tad more. The plenum is a little larger that is for sure. The inside diameter of the runners is 1.75". My custom SLP's are 1.85" for less than an inch.

I think what we have done is turn the TPI intake system effectively into a single plane intake. I would not be surprised if my intake system now flows 320cfm. One thing I was concerned about was how the siamese runners would react. Would they be an extension of the plenum area or would they act like a large runner. IMHO they have acted like an extension of the plenum and that is why the motor wants to wind up.

I'm thinking the new AFR 195 Eliminator Competition heads will fit this setup quite nicely. Joe Sherman has his shop not to far away. When the time comes I will go by and have a chat as he is a dealer for AFR and get his opinion as the best way to go and most likely buy the heads from him. I also will need to lighten up on the valve train and that is another reason for the AFR heads.

With the rpm and potential horsepower I feel I need to go all forged on the internals for longevity. Scat his some good prices on the products plus you can order custom crankshafts. I might go that route.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Reid

Actually I have been shifting in the past around the 6100rpm mark. Hehehe, I don't think 450 rwhp is in the cards. Getting 500 crank horsepower out of a 355 is a daunting task in itself. That would put me around 400rwhp. I think that is a bridge to far.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

wow your runners are that big? i didnt thin SLP's could be opened up that much even with welding. I just heard that the FIRST was a tad shorter overall length on the runners but i guess not. Should act like a bigger AS&M setup then, alot more torque and limited RPMS with limited hp.

Your right tho, siamesed runner has acted like a single plane and really wants to wind up now

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"wow your runners are that big?"

Actually that is the 1" thick adaptor plate part that I had to make up in order for the SLP runners to match up to the First Intake. The runner portion of the SLP's at that point are siamesed with of course welding on the outside to make the joint to the adaptors. Make that a lot of welding.