stuart69427

I have a rebuilt GM Water Pump that I boughtfor my old 2.8. I think I could benefit from doing a timing chain swap, so I just wanted to now if I could use this pump I already paid for! Its never been used. I also have the complete gasket set, would this work as well?

I will buy a TIMING SET this time for the 3.4 I got just the chain the last time, but none of this ever masde it on the engine. Actually I keep the cahain by my computer and play with it while I wait for page loads (56K user here)

87CamaroMan

It will fit... I used a new 2.8 water pump I got for my 2.8 but that engin blew so I put it on my 3.4.. They are the same water pumps.

stuart69427

Just wanted to make sure becuase AdvaceAutoParts.com shows two different part numbers.

87CamaroMan

Thats wierd... They are 2 different numbers... I've been running my 2.8 water pump on the 3.4 for about 4 months now.. With no problems

Project: 85 2.8 bird

This is how the 2.8 front plate looks w/out the water pump off



The 3.4 will be the mirror image, it rotaes counter clockwise. So unless the newer cars w/the sep belt setup rotate the same way, no reuse water pump. Timing chain should be ok.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

interesting. you r 2.8 had the full serp belt setup did it not?

KED85

The 2.8 pump is different than a pump spec'd for a 3.4. Rotation & direction of impellers due to accessory belt design.
YET if ya got one working.....
The Chains are identical & BE SURE TO GET A NEW TENSIONER & Balancer repair sleeve (NAPA or Fel Pro both only $4)
IF the balancer sleeve is not "there" use a 3rd Gen F Body combination, the part is identical for usage on the 3.4 balancer.
GREAT SCORE ON THE 4th GEN RIDE!
Go get the Street Legal 3.4 60* V6 92-95 F Body Headers from PaceSetter & their matching exhaust & gain what we currently lack (HEADERS!!!)
Contact Mr. Fred Gerle at PaceSetter for specifics & part numbers. fgerle@PaceSetterexhaust.com
JC Whitney sells the exhaust system, inexpensive, too.
When ya remove the balancer set up be cautious of the sensor for the ignition timing, it's on driver side under the P/S pump. Kinda tiny sized item. Take balancer & THROUGHLY clean it & make sure the metal timing plate regains some good shine! Easy Off Oven Cleaner & the dishwasher works great! Use same method on the timing cover, too!
Your ride will really have more pep upon installation of these items.
Just go swap the W-pump for the 3.4 version.

LONG LIVE 56K download!
What is better for home?
Broad Band or DSL?
I'm in LA, CA so we have both offered.

stuart69427

I hate to have to by another set of headers. I have the trash that CHC sold me sitting in my closet. I MIGHT see If I can find an independant shop that can fix all the welds, build a Y-Pipe and Powder Coat the correctly.

The chassis is perfect, I couldn't afford a LT1 with this nice of a interior/exterior. The thing doesn't have any rattles either, which was the worst about the '88. While I dislike the floorboard design and the fact that it is two inches higher than a thirdgen, its not a bad ride. A LT1 may find its way in there in a few years, if I keep the car. Truely a remarkle chassis for a 94, and only $3500 with 98k when I bought it (now its 108k after three months )

I am working with a PST front rebuild kit right now, and have to pull the front sway bar off again becuase I didn't even put any grease at all on the bushings or the endlinks. I was in a rush, had allready been working for 12 hours straight on the front rebuild.

Fourth gens use upper control arms with the balljoints riveted in. also the outer shells of the bushings are part of the upper control arm and we had to burn the old bushing out. Also we had to pull the struts to get the nuts of the upper control arm, but someone switched to a torx bolt on the driver side which the master cylinder was in the way, so it had to be moved. All in all I was happy with the polygraphite. got rid of the 'sloppy' ride. I still need to do the lower control arm bushings and the lower balljoints which are pressed in. A pickle fork would not get them out. My friend will be picking up a ball joint tool shortly.

This is an upcoming project after the suspension, I think I'll try to see if I can exchange the 2.8 Pump for a 3.4. I ordred in from Northern Auto Parts, as per your recomendation Karl, man that was like two years ago where did that time go ?

stuart69427

What does a balancer repeair sleeve do, just curious? I will think about doing the tensioner at the same time.

87CamaroMan

Yes it does have the serp belt setup. Should I worry about the water pump. Or is it ok...

Project: 85 2.8 bird

the 85 2.8 wp had the belt going on top of the pulley, & rotates clockwise. The 3.4 has the belt going under the wp, &rotates counter-clockwise.

TomP

The balancer flange rides "inside" the front cover seal, and after many years, the seal can put a groove into the balancer flange, which will cause an oil leak. The repair sleeve slides over the balancer flange and is thin enough so it doesn't distort the front seal, but it gives a smooth place for the seal to touch.

Your balancer may or may not need it (mine didn't at 165,000 miles), but it's one of those things you can only tell that you need once you pull the balancer. And if your balancer flange is okay, you could probably always return that $5 repair sleeve if you had to.

KED85

Really pleased to hear how you you've done with the latest purchase.
There is less leg room in a 4th gen then 3rd Gen?
IF you still have receipt from Northern they do ya fine, I'll bet.
Wish ya were out here I'd grab the pump from ya. Shipping cross country & purchase equals find a local buyer!
For the simple installation, and the fact that addition of a balancer sleeve repair does eliminate a potential leak, do it! Cheap insurance.

Hey can't help ya on headers purchased. I only know of a set of high quality street legal ones that can be purchased.

stuart69427

To clarify this is all that I should do:

Timing Chain SET
Timing Cover Gasket
Balancer Repair Sleeve
3.4L Water Pump (hopefully Northern Auto will Exchange)
Water Pump Gasket
Timing Tab ???
Possible Tensioner Replace

Can I get a Timing tab from a 28L/3.1L and have one cuase my 3.4L doesn't have one Not that I could do anything about it anyways... (DIS)

Junkyards around baltimore, ALL the fbodys are v6 or are missing entire drivelines. MAybe in a blue moon a LG4/LO3, maybe... I shouldn't have a problem finding a v6 to get a timing tab.

Anything else I am missing on this project, anything I should do while this is out?

KED85

Timing gasket set will contain ALL (except balancer sleeve repair).
IF ya tell Northern the parts ya buying & ya want to swap one already purchased thru them (the previous pump), perhaps your offer to pay shipping to them & I'll bet it's a done deal.
Tell them you want the early Thanksgiving special deal.

Unless you can score a used correct for your usage timing cover, seems wisest would be to buy a new one? Seek out local engine rebuilders for a good used one, too.
Go to the local GM dealer parts counter & ask for the print out of the illustration showing timing cover & use that as a guide for timing problem solution.
Wonder what's more fun...
my heater core swap in the Firebird or your timing chain swap in a 4th gen V6?

DON'T FORGET NEW HOSES, too!

stuart69427

thanks for all your help guys, this is why I prefer this forum over the fourth gen specific ones. I thought you would know enough about the 3.4 get me done correctly!

Ive heard heater core a pain to replace since the cooling system and A/C both have to be compleetly drained first! Lets hope I don't have to do anything of the sort anytime soon.

I think I might have a stuck T-Stat cuase my car warms up to quickly, or I could be used to a 180 T-Stat ? I will feel the upper hose and see if I can sqeeze it, trick I learned in my engines 1 class see college is good for sumthin'

KED85

Make sure you do have the proper required temp thermostat.
Your ECM system depends alot on accurate set up from factory.
Your ride should kick butt after you're done, too.
Make sure your ignition coils operate properly & ya got great spark plug wires. Make damn sure you have the exact correct spark plugs in there, too.
In my two 3.4's wrong spark plugs were installed.
These 3.4s came to me with plugs called for by a 2.8 V6 set up. 3.4s run higher compression & require a different heat range plug.

stuart69427

Wait I think I installed ACDelco Rapidfire p/n 1 which is what the 2.8 called for, and what advance sold me.

COULD THIS BE THE CAUSE OF WHY I AM RUNNING RICH????

One of the factors of why I wanted to replace the timing chain is that a stretched timing chain retards timing to the point that it could cause richness, correct?

I am running rich and causing my new stock-replacement cat and my old one for that matter are creating a sulpher smell, which as my research shows and from a couple teachers at school, I'm running rich, causing my cat to be overworked. THe sulpher smell is letting me know my cats working and will soon fail

I have Autolite Wires on there, I had a set of Xtant I put on first, (hey they only had 2000 miles on the the last camaro before she went to the boneyard) but they got toasted from the extreme heat off my maniflod, in fact I have melted wire loom on my egr tub to prove it

Coilpacks check out fine, tested all three. Brand new O2 Sensors (Gurr two of them) Cat Converter, Intake maniflod/throttlebody had to be cleaned at the machine shop($400 ahh), the (egr routing was clogged), new map, few new vacuum hoses, new air and fuel filters, oil changed 3 times now, one at 3k, one at 4.3k, one at 2.4k and watching my slow leaking oil pan, PST front end rebuild, new rotors. (4) Dunlop Sport A2 225/55/R16s, (2) BF Goodrinch Comp T/A 245/50/R16s, (2) C4 Corvette Rims w/ Free Snowtires ready to go on when I need them...

All in all this car is 10X ahead of my old 88 and I only dumped $1700 over the prurchase of this car in the last three months and it runs 'Perfect' for 99.9% of people, just I have to have it perfect.

I spent over $1K to pass emmissions, and the car ran great before all four tests stupid EPA and never buy the 'digital EGR' valve directly from the dealer, they charged me $418

But I shouldn't have too much to fix for the next 100k cuase I did all of this instead of worring about the cosmetics like I did on the last one.

KED85

Your executions sound so solid. You're building a ride for many trouble free miles.
Definetly do the chain.
I'm doing heater core soon. After chilly winds die down.
I ran my Firebird swapped 3.4 with the wrong plugs.
I heard engine ping.
Pulled out those 2.8 spec'd ones.
Inserted 3.4 spec'd plugs & never looked back.
I use Bosch Platinum Plugs. I do have good luck with them for many miles, IF the engine is solid. IF engine is aged & oily smoker, I use any $.99 plug I can get.

stuart69427

Karl,

www.acdelco.com lists the 2.8L and 3.4L as having the same plug. What p/n did you use in your 3.4 ???

Standard: R43TSK
Rapidfire: 1
Platinum: 41-803



However Bosch has two p/n

3.4L p/n 4208
2.8L p/n 6224

This is for the single Platinum plugs, the +2 and +4 I am not interested in, as they do no benefit...

Also are there any double platinum available for the 3.4L since I have DIS One spark plug on the coil is going one way and the othre plug is going the other, so it would be benifical to have platinum on the electrode and on the tip...

Project: 85 2.8 bird

Where are you getting the plug numbers from? I have the plugs for the 3.4 in mine, and they are a different number than the 2.8s.


side note: I was cleaning the garage a couple mos ago & found my plainum plugs fromthe 76 Bonnie, fir grits & shins, I started to thread the plugs into the 2.8 heads, & they fit !!!!!. Interesting

KED85

I use the bosch platinum single electrode plug.
All I know is that the Bosch number for a 3.4 application is different than a 2.8 application.
AC Delco application I do not know that detail so no comment.
All peanut plugs tend to thread into each other cylinder head applications.

stuart69427

www.acdelco.com
www.advanceautoparts.com

TomP

GM changed heat ranges of the plugs of the 2.8 through the years. This could be why you're seeing different part #s. I did some reasearch on this back in 2000, here's a bit of the results:

82/83/84, 2.8, 2 bbl, code 1, R43TS
84 HO, 2.8, 2bbl, code L, R42TS
85/86/87, 2.8, MPFI, code S, R42TS
88/89, 2.8, MPFI, code S, R43TSK
90/91/92, 3.1, MPFI, code T, R43TSK
93, 3.4, SFI, code S, R43TSK

"K" supposedly means "special design", don't know what GM means by that one.

What's "fun" is that there were no design changes to the motor between 1987 and 1988. Makes me wonder why GM changed the heat range. Range 2 (the "2" in R42TS) is colder then range 3 (the "3" in R43TSK).

A bit more of my research: Fieros with the 2.8's used a heat range of 2. Front wheel drive beretta/corsica/cavalier's with 2.8 and 3.1 MPFI used a heat range of 4, possibly for the aluminum heads, which used the splayed valve arrangement with heart-shaped combustion chamber.

I believe this to be the problem when, if some of you remember, people claimed that "Splitfire plugs ruined the engine! The plugs were wet with oil!" Remember those people? Well from a cross-reference between the Splitfire heat range charts and the AC/Delco heat range charts, Splitfire didn't quite agree with the GM heat ranges for f-bodies, and presumably other car platforms as well- which probably explained the oily plugs- too cold of a heat range.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

The cars may have been moving towards a leaner mixture as the yrs went on. Probably for **** emmissions reasons. PLugs on my T/A & Bonnie were R45TSX.

OBTW, did a quick search on AZ.com, those Bosch Platinums are listed for the T/A, 2.8, & 3.4 motors. Even the 3800 Cool

One size fits all though

KED85

Yes, physical size, threading into the heads, the thread count & hole size probably is identical & the same.
Standardization.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

That'll work. I can honestly claim I'm using parts from a Pocho 400 in my ride :rockon:

stuart69427

I put in Bosch Platinum plugs, and all I must say is WOW it livened up up engine to the point where the car ran two months ago but a boot broke off of one of the pass side wires the temp on that side is breaking boots and melting wire looms and I had to replace my Autolites with Xact now to see if I still get the "sulpher" smell...

Any Ideas on the heat problem?

Compression on all six cylinders are within 5% of each other but the numbers are like over 200 psi, but numbers don't matter

Project: 85 2.8 bird

mnaybe some high heat wire boots/material from Jegs/Summit?

KED85

YOUR COMPRESSION IS SPOT ON!
My 1985 Firebird 3.4 registered 175 in 5 cylinders & 200 in one cylinder.
My 3.4 in my Blazer registered 150 all cylinders.
I use Accel 8.8.
The boots protect great!
Use asbestos wrap around the boots for better protection. Find a local welding store for the stuff & use stainless steel wire to wrap the protecting asbestos around the plug boot.
Problem solved.
You've got a great ride once all bugs worked out!
Save up for the PaceSetter 93-95 3.4 Street Legal Headers.
Contact Mr. Fred Gerle at PaceSetter Exhaust for details!
fgerle@pacesetterexhaust.com
Tell him I sent ya, Karl from Third Gen Org.