Doward

KED, I'm counting on you here

Would someone be so kind as to post a picture of the camshaft sensor used on the 3.4? I don't mean the actual sensor, but I'm wondering it it's set up like the Toyota 7MGTE(DIS) vs 7MGE(Distributor) - the DIS cam sensor was basically a distributor missing the top part, with the cam sensor in it.

IF this is the case, does anyone have a complete drop-in cam sensor assembly I could purchase from then? (PAGING KED!)

Project: 85 2.8 bird

the cam sensor is in the front top of the engine, drivers side. where the intake manifold curves, the sensor goes into the block.

Doward

Pic?

v6#21

Here you go John. The sensor is just best left in place and the wires are clips if not using the DIS.

KED85

That's it.
For my swaps I leave alone wiring and the sensor.
Cut wires at sensors leaves clues something is up during a CA Smog check.
IF ya seek more pics go to the dealer and seek the parts counter illustration picture of the set up.
Also there is something at the crank. That part I remove.
All that is is another small sensor with wires. Attaches to timing cover I think.

Doward

Is it in the block (it looks like it) or in the timing cover?

Also, I noticed the cam sensor is long.. I take it it runs down to the camshaft... Is there a sprocket, or is the timing disc built into the camshaft gear?

I understand the crank sensor is behind the harmonic balancer....

The_Raven

It is in the block, not the timing cover. The Cam sensor is only used for SFI, has NO effect on the DIS ignition system.

The crank 7x sensor is used for the DIS, which is mounted between the #3 and #5 cylinders on the right (passenger) side of the block.

I know the genIII engines use a 24x crank sensor that is mouted behind the ballancer, but I'm not aware if the 3.4s do or not.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

the DIS cams have a nubbin thing on them that the cam sensor senses.

KED85

I admit not knowing "Gen phrasing"
On the 3.4s I used, there was a sensor pointed toward the balancer
Flat looking item.
It easily was removed by two bolts, small head.
The cam sensor I never removed, (two swaps) and in my swap boogie thread I strongly recommend against removal as in why invite an oil leak.
I know not where that sensor leads to, except it is pointed in cam area. Yep it's a block drilled hole, not on timing cover.
That's it!
Balancer sensor attaches to timing chain cover.
Hope these are helpful clues.
IN end, use a 3.4 block for foundation. All stuff is there & ya can find the 3.4 blocks.
Or modify an aftermarket ignition system for your needs. Many options for DIS set ups now.
But at what cost for your end goal?

Project: 85 2.8 bird

Hey Karl

The_Raven

That would be an SFI cam, again, DIS uses no cam position inputs. Just the 7x crank sensor. In the genIII there are 3 different variations on the trigger wheel, there is a single tooth, missing tooth and half circle trigger wheel. The single tooth was used from '94 to '99 (I would assume the F-body 3.4 is the same), in '00 the sync wheel was changed to a missing tooth (notch), then in '02 it was changed to the half circle type.

It would make sense that the F-body 3.4 uses a 24x crank sensor, since the genIII uses an almost indentical PCM, with that sensor.

Doward

I know the crank trigger disc is built into the crankshaft of the FWD vehicles - is it possible the crank trigger is external on the RWD 3.4s?

I'd like to find some pics of that, if possible - the only info I have so far, is it is behind the harmonic balancer....

Dean, is that a 3.4 timing cover you are using there? I'd like to get a pic of that, too, if I can....

The_Raven

Doward, listen to me, I know you have in the past.

There are TWO crank triggers, one internal, just like the FWD versions, in fact it's the same crank and the sensor is the exact same one. This is a 7x crank trigger which then sends the proper signal to the DIS ignition system, this is the one you need for that, if that is what you are planning, something similar to my truck, which I know you've seen.

The one mounted behind the harminoic balancer is a 24x crank sensor, supposed to decrease start times, basically so that the engine starts in the first 360 of rotation, instead of a full 720 degrees. This sensor is NOT needed for the DIS system, and will NOT run the DIS system if you tried to, completly wrong signal. If you want to make an external trigger wheel look in my thread on 60degree, entitled "Dizzy Vs DIS" I have pics of mine in there and bszopi posted some links to drawigs of a crank trigger wheel.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

I never said the DIS uses the camsensor to work, but it seems to have something to dow/fuel, so the theory goes..........

& the rwd does use the 24x

The_Raven

Actually the way you worded it, you did:

There are no DIS specific cams, so this statement doesn't makes sense overall. You can grind the cam postion tabs off the cam and the DIS will still work fine, the cam postin tabs and sensor are for SFI ONLY.

Yes, the Cam sensor does effect fueling on an SFI system originally installed in the mid '90s F-body that used the 3.4, MPFI systems do not use a cam postion sensor. It detects the position of cylinder #1, more specifically when the #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke, to sequence the injectors for start up. After that the cam sensor could be removed and have no effect on how the engine runs, though I'm sure a code would be thrown.

I have witnessed SFI vehicles run without the cam position sensor, they just revert to an MPFI (Batch fire) program, which would also put the PCM in limp mode. Engine idles and runs pretty rough when this happens.

v6#21

John, I threw out the 3.4 timinig cover about a year ago when I first came across this motor. Thew one on it in the pic is the same one I have shown a few times in the past months that I TIGed AN bungs into it for a remote waterpump application I will be installing someday. That is a factory 2.8 timing cover I have pictured. The 3.4 timing covers NEEDS the 3.4 oilpan to seal properly (and consequently the 2.8/3.1 timing cover needs the 2.8/3.1 oilpan.) I have researched that the 3.4 pan will not fit our 3rdgen chassis so I round filed it also.
ps- I gave Jay the DIS coils so they are gone also.

v6#21

I have about another year on the house project and then I am definately building on radical 3.4. Here is my current house project statis- its my priority and takes up most of my free time and money. I have about $20k cash going into this project over the next years span.

KED85

My house projects done & ready for moving outta here, stage right!

Doward

Well, damn, shoots all those ideas down.

Raven, didn't realize it used BOTH crank sensors. Maybe I need to learn to read better

Back to the drawing board, lol

The_Raven

Ok, back up a minute here, the DIS uses ONE crank trigger, the 7x that is internal to the engine in stock form.

What is it that you figure uses "both sensors"? The Cam and 24x crank sensors connect directly to the PCM, for starting purposes.

Or are you trying to convert to SFI? You sneaky bastard! :P

Doward

lol, nope - just DIS, to make it easy to run the 3100 LIM... that's not going to happen tho, without some fancy re-wiring... so I'm just going to build a new LIM.

The_Raven

Ok, so you need ONE crank sensor, the 7x, that is on the crank, or like I did, build an external. (FYI, if there is enough interest, I may be making and selling these.)

Doward

I had thought about that, but decided against it. I'll just build a nice custom manifold for it It's only got 1 water crossover in the front, though I'm still trying to figure out why that is?

The_Raven

Why what is?

The water passage only at the front where the T-stat and upper rad hose is?

Show me an OEM manifold that has one accross the back as well. I can only think of two applications where that is the case.

Doward

Yeah, but that's one of the common head mods on a Poncho motor - allow the water to flow to BOTH heads in the rear, with a crossover - helps equalize cylinder temps, across the rear of both heads (bad problems with #7 getting REALLY damn hot)

The_Raven

Yeah don't worry that's a common mod on any engine, but don't make it flow between the heads, that's somewhat pointless, get it to flow foward, by use of a tube/hose. You need to evac the head not just make it flow more coolant in the same area.

KED85

Smokey Yunick did this ages ago for Chevrolet.
Chevy thought not to (substitute engineering/cost complexity) "hot" about it.
Yet the idea did appear, isn't some variation of cylinder head cooling on the LT1 engine series?
And if I'm correct, that engine series died a quick death.
Same with the "oil cooler" found on some Corvette engines of the 80's/90's.
Modern technology (advanced fluids) compensated enough "to do without complexity of that item", also. As in "keep production line costs lower!"
It's not why reinvent the wheel, there could be a more simple solution.

The_Raven

Take a closer look at newer production vehciles. There are MANY that have factory oil coolers on them.

I.E.

- Full size Chevy/GMC pick-ups from '96 to '04 (maybe a wider span)
- Montana Minivans with the 3400 from '96 to '99
- Some S-series from '98 to '04
- And a slew of others in the GM line up alone.

KED85

You left out the police designated vehilces too.
Like I said why reinvent a wheel......
Alot of "things" can be done, but why...
Use the 3.4 designated stuff from the get go.

The_Raven

The Police vehicles fit into the "Whole slew of others catagory".

Why not improve on matters? That is after all what Doward is after, improving the power output of his F-body, why else would he spend the time to build a turbo system for it? That most certainly wasn't "3.4 specific".

Evacuating the coolant from the rear of the heads will improve cylinder to cylinder heat consistancy and also help combat pre-det, due to lowering the temp of the rear chambers through use of this technique.

If you consider this re-inventing the wheel, consider me a re-inventer then, I will continue to do so, until I get the results I am after.

KED85

AND I think it's great, too.
BUT when ya start to hack holes in a block oil passage system to add a sensor for a "DIS" set up, it's so much easier to just score the (in this instance) correct 3.4 block and go forward.
Meaning, why reinvent a wheel, when GM made the subject (a 3.4 DIS system) easy to obtain in many many 93-95 F Bodies.
Go find the right part, a used 3.4 short block.
To gain more power, use a better solution, to offer more reliable results.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

In a little late here.

3 sensors.
One on timing chain cover
One in pass side of block down low by starter
One up high in block, (as picture)

I have a 3.4 oil pan on a 3.1 timing cover, in a 3rd gen camaro.
I have a 3.4 timing cover laying around
I have a 3.1 oil pan laying around

The_Raven

I've told you this in the past and I will tell you this again, you're an idiot.

What "Oil passage" is being cut into to add a DIS ignition?

NONE!!!!

Even if you drilled the side of the blck, which would also require making a machined piece to atain the correct sensor angle, there is no oil passage there, just the side of the block, essentially the outer skin of the block, that on the other side is the crank house.

Besides, there's yet a better way to do it, build an external crank trigger.

Here's a few pics of mine:




I also added adjustable base timing to my set-up, since well I like things to be adjustable.

Yes you could use a 3.4 block, but it's not the only option.

Man if people actually listened to you, they'd never really do anything with thier cars, besides the simplest of things.
Some of us actually have some imagination and desire to modify our vehicles for incresed power and reliability, don't knock those of us that do, we don't kncok you have a simple 3.4 swap, now do we?

Remember, limits are only there because you put them there, and only limited by your imagination.

KED85

You ovewhelm us all with your powers of observation and superb drool usage of the English language.
Try the sensor going to the cam shaft.
In the end, it's all so easy to obtain the correct 3.4 engine block.
All work is already done by the GM foundry.

The_Raven

The camshaft sensor is not needed for DIS, how many times do I need do I need to repeat this? The Cam positions sensor is used STRICTLY for the SFI, NOTHING else, in fact it's only used during start-up to start the injector sequence, and maybe when the engine comes back below 3000 RPM when it returns back to an SFI state. (The GM SFI 660 reverts to MPFI above 3000 RPM).

Only ONE sensor is needing to be added for DIS, the 7x crank position sensor.

Easier to talk about getting a 3.4 block, than to actually get one. They are hard to find around here, especially for a cheap price. Most wreckers want $1500 to $2500 for a long block, too much when all that's going to be used is the block, crank and rods, for my purpose, anyway.

Besides, I gotta ask, what's so "wrong" with making parts, to make things like the DIS function, like I have? You better tell all those guys that run MSD crank triggers that they are doing it wrong.

Oh, care to elighten me what a "drool usage of the english language" is?
I don't drool when I speak, or type.

KED85

No one said anything about aftermarket for the items ya seek. But I doubt those aftemarket items are specific application for a 60*V6.
If you are finding fully dressed long blocks for your stated price range, seek other sources like Ebay.
Hell, LA,CA prices are expensive, but I can score a 40,000 mile fully dressed long block 3.4 for $900
How many ya want?
You do drool and have a quality command of the English language.
It especially shows with your lack of maturity like you show in other thread repsonse to my comment.

The_Raven

Ok, lets think about this, $900 US, plus shipping is well over the $1500 CDN that I would spend for one right here.

I was comparing my set-up to other other vehicles that are out there, ones that use similar components, and how my supposed wrong way of doing it is based off of other engines and ideas, which I guess they are also wrong to want more power from thier rides as well. :shrug: I guess I'll just have to put my truck back to stock so none of it has the "wrong" parts. :shrug:

Do you mind translating that last part?

I'd like to know why you think I drool? That makes no sense to me, or where it fits in this convo. :scratches head:

"Lack of maturity" LMAO....

At least I am answering questions, ones that have been asked, you just keep repeating yourself over and over again, about the swap "boogie", which I really have no idea how dancing applies to engine swapping, but whatever floats your boat I guess. :shrug:
Maybe read and comprehend what is going on in a thread before replying to it, would save you the embarassment of blatently not understanding what is going on.

Doward

Guys, DIS is a moot point - I see where Raven's coming from, with the DIS only requiring the crank trigger input, and the cam input only being used for the SFI...

I also see where KED's coming from - it IS easier to just snag a 3.4 block to already have the hookups for it...

It IS cheaper to build your own hookups.

Nothing wrong with either approach! But since nobody's going DIS, no need to argue the fine points about it. You're both right, coming from your respective points of view.

KED85

Thanks John
Ya couldn't have said it better.
It stinks that some great ideas can't be accomplished as easily as other have done so.
Not all have the time, knowledge, tools or parts handy.
I applaude those with creative genius that can make some great ideas work well.
Compromise comes into play when ya also have to deal with governing regulations of real worlds.
I still wonder why, a place that made the 4th Gen F Body (Canada) always has such trouble finding the 3.4 block.

The_Raven

More people bought V8s than V6s.

KED85

Unfair for you guys up there!!!!!