RustyRed

I have an 86 Firebird with a 2.8l v6 and 180000 miles on it, automatic as well (if it helps.) Anyways, I have a really annoying problem of my car dying on me the second I depress the breaks or let off the gas. Usually coming up to a red light if I dont give myself a good 100 feet to stop im most likely going to die. Not to understanding on the whole vacuum line assembly I do have some hoses lying about my engine that have no connections to anything. One from the container (circular) under the battery on the driver side fender/wheel well. One more from the steel wire that goes into a half opened faced thing, next to the washer fluid container, (which I dont have). Just an all around mess, I want to feel comfortable and proud to drive my bird but cant when Im pushing it out of traffic. Please, please, please help. B4 I drive my car off a cliff

firebird1992

PICS will help alot when the last time you did a tune up check for any cracked or broken lines .

enswrob

sounds like a bad idle air motor.

legendofkane

the 1 near the washer sounds like the cruise control(same as under battery in fender well,find any open hoses and plug them up first and see how it runs at idle..but you have to find where they go(should have a diagram under your hood,,also haynes manual)..then once they are attached to where they go you need to spray them to check for leaks..i took off my cruise control vacs.Also what enswrob said is correct..you can also have a fouled iac,but you deff have a vac leak..and pics would help.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Go to Autozone, Pepboys, etc and buy a $3 package of vacuum caps. Try to reconnect what you can, and cap the rest. I've capped a lot off on my engine in an attempt to clean it up and it still runs great.

RustyRed

Here are some visuals of this mess

RustyRed

I would love to be able to look at the diagram under my hood the only problem is that I do not have a hood to look at....It kinda flew away while driving down the Interstate....Those pics there are of the hoses that are either disconnected or that I dont understand the purpose of them. Tonight im going to spray them and cap off any open ended ones but I want everything that needs to be hooked up to be hooked, emissions is coming and I dont wanna fail for some vacuum issue, ya know, thanks for the help guys

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

If it will let me post it, this diagram is for my 87. Get those vac lines taken care of, and then we'll deal with the other problem (cold stalling).

Look in this post: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/5...-firebird.html

Don't worry about the year difference... The diagram on the 85 hood I have is pretty much the same as the 87 diagram (that was a pic I snapped of it before I got rid of my old hood).

:edit: You're also going to want to pick up a foot or so of 5/16 fuel hose and replace the vapor vent hose on that charcoal can if you need it connected to pass emissions.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Pic 2 looks like it goes to the "orb of power" under the battery tray. I pulled mine and the line and noticed no difference.

legendofkane

yeah the one in the 1st pic is the cruise control,the second pic looks like the hoses goin to it from the plenum(on mine anyway) at least it goes to a vac source..just go to the source of vacuum and plug all the lines up that are loose,then get a diagram like Maverick posted,then you can get new lines in correct sizes and reconnect things you need,cruise is not really necessary.Definitely spray or replace charcoal lines as needed since it will leak,also pull the line off the purge valve on top of you cannister and open the throttle some while placing a finger on the end to feel for vacuum as you hold the throttle open.Also the lines in pic 2 wouldnt be a leak since they arent connected so you might wanna spray areas around the intake and injectors,brake booster line with starting fluid.will be better to use that instead of soap water or or carb spray

RustyRed

Thanks for the help I will check those lines and replace everything I need too, Is it wise to buy rebuilt fuel injectors, I found a website that rebuilds them and sells them for like $150 bucks for all of them. Not sure if that is something worth spending or if I should just wait. I see whats strange is that if Im in park and idling and I depress the brakes my idle drops. There is a vacuum line that connects to the master brake cylinder but it isnt leaking (or from my expertise there isnt). Also can I clean my egr or do I just need to replace that aswell? Thx for your time everyone

legendofkane

Try to clean the egr first,,the torx bolts mite break off like mine did but you can drill/tap new holes..theres a site where a guy sells remanned injectors for like 120-130 paid for..will look it up n post it and my idle drops a little when i press the brake pedal but if there is a leak i cant find it,,,its no big tho.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

legendofkane, he has the old vacuum operated EGR valve that is controlled by a vacuum regulator valve... All he has to do is pull 2 10mm bolts and take it off of the connecting pipes.

You can clean the EGR pintle, but you might want to test the valve first to make sure it holds vacuum as well. I still have most of these parts but can't use them (the canister vacuum restrictor and inline purge valve, the vacuum regulator valve, the EGR valve) so let me know if you need them... I'll see what I can dig up in my garage (EVRV and the EGR valve are still attached to my engine at the moment as I haven't made it to the junkyard yet to get the digital one). Also, the big black pipe running off of the nipple on the throttle body to the nipple on the rear of the lower intake may have issues as well. Both of the rubber ends could be cracked and useless, and the secondary line running to the vacuum canister may be melted or cracked/broken. Also check the fit of the PCV valve in the valve cover and on the hose connecting to the idle air intake pipe (that nylon pipe I described before), that the intake bellows (and the ENTIRE air inlet assembly for that matter) isn't cracked, and the nipple on the passenger's side valve cover for sealing to the intake tube and the valve cover for proper sealing.

There's other things as well, but that should keep you busy for a bit.

legendofkane

hey Maverick i got the digital egr,3.1 v6,and when i tried takin mine apart i broke all 3 bolts..and i think the 2.8 had the old style vac egr right?,,dont know why i mentioned takin his egr apart.If he has the old style egr he can push up on the diaphram from the bottom , after the car heats up and if it stumbles then its good if i remember my old cars that i had.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

EGR operation is easy to test with a vac pump (or a length of hose and a mouth). When you apply vac to the egr at idle it should just about stall if the passage is clean & operating properly.

X2 on the vac lines running to the rear of the lower manifold. Common leak point that rarely gets addressed.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Exactly right. Except that more than likely the engine will die when he manually opens the EGR valve (if he can).

I believe the digital 3 solenoid EGR valve was put in for the 90 model year... Except that I have never seen an 89 in person.

legendofkane

i know a guy drivin a 88 or 89 who said hes runnin a 305 but i never looked under the hood but all egr's from my 77 cutlass to Rustyreds camaro should react the same to leaks and testing with a vac tool.i never rely on just gaskets,,i use black or grey permatex on everything cuz more than likely the gasket is gonna be toast when i pull things apart.And rusty keep us up to date on how you are comin along thats what this forum is for,,its helped me a lot,,these guys know what they are talkin about.

dontellmymom

@ legendofkane SIR, what did your digital EGR valve? and did it make any difference in the performance after you did it?

legendofkane

i found no difference in performance when i blocked it off,some may see a little mpg but not enough to go through makin a plate IMHO,it just makes sense to me by just having it running like its supposed to,unless you cant find a cheap replacement part in a boneyard..if that happens just block it off for moneys sake.

dontellmymom

@ legendofkane SIR, what did your digital EGR valve? and did it make any difference in the performance after you did it?

legendofkane

you mean what did i do to the assembly?,just make a plate the same shape as the one on the plenum..and seal it with a gasket or permatex like i did..it never gave me any problems when it was open,just wanted to see if it made any difference,it didnt.

dontellmymom

wow... my computer is acting up... just like my car


H-TOWN

dontellmymom

@ legendofkane SIR, what did your digital EGR valve? and did it make any difference in the performance after you did it?

legendofkane

whats it doin?,,any codes?...if you have egr problems take it off.clean it with brake cleaner,if you try to take it apart you might break the 3 torx bolts(can be tapped),,also make sure you clean the silver pipe goin to the plenum,,could be clogged up with carbon.

dontellmymom

@ legendofkane I meant to say what did you use to clean your digital EGR valve, once you got it separated a solvent or something? I tried to open the EGR but those torx head screws are tough...

legendofkane

i used brake cleaner,steel brush like for handguns,brake cleaner dries better than carb spray,and the torx are tough..i soaked my egr in a couple of inches of pb blaster..spray that on the torx head and the bottom where you can see the ends of the bolt,,,and at the sleeves that the torx go thru near the bottom..should be a small gap,,also spray the pintles

RustyRed

Okay so heres my status update, I bought new hoses for my vacuum charcoal canister and when replacing the hose from the purge valve to the back of my intake the little nipple on the purge broke off.....so for now I rigged it up just to keep my car runnin but I need to get a new one soon (it is leaking now)....also picked up a new fuel filter and a cheap brillow pad lookin filter for the bottom of the canister...I decided to just replace all the lines at once...just to check the 5/16 is the regular hose sizes for most of the vacuum system, right?

You were right Maverick, this is definitly keepin me busy, its almost never ending...so for now new hoses...check....new purge valve....check....and the egr...quick question, so Im goin to take it off tonight...clean it with brake cleaner, check to make sure its functionable...any tips before diggin into it? never inspected an egr before.. I will keep everyone posted ... Thanks friends

legendofkane

remember to spray starter fluid on any old vac lines on your evap assembly..i sprayed my vac lines near the tank pressure valve today(not the purge control valve on top of the cannister) and my idle changed..hopefully when i cure all leaks around the tbi it may run a little better...or its a bad purge or pressure valve.I used brake cleaner on my egr,if yours is workin the clean the carbon off with a steel brush like used on handguns,and see if you can clean any carbon in the area/hole the egr gasses pass thru.

ikeepitreelz

I have a similiar idle problem, when the engine is "cold" it runs fine but then it has a choppy idle,yesterday my friend brought around his same year,motor etc, trans am and i discovered that my emission hoses were routed wrong, so i copied everything from his car( His car is super stock with lots of original parts, unmolested) Then i found out that iam missing one of the valves( theres 2 on his car) that comes off or into the charcoal canister, i hooked up the other hoses as in his car and it runs somewhat better and i don't have the fuel odor inside the car, check to see if that's your problem, i found the valve at this web site you can see there is 2 of them, I bought both to be on the safe side.
http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/b2c/catalog_search.php

P.s- Where and how much did you get the canister purge filter?

Thanks

RustyRed

Alright, that seems to be my issue as well, I have a hose routing system that was given to me earlier in this discussion board that seems to look fine until I get to the egr area....I have some lines that are connected but dont match up at all....everything off of the canister is fine but the connection points from the egr and the intake are questionable...I found the filter for the canister at checker for a few dollars....http://shop.oreillyauto.com/ProductD...Type=8&PTSet=A ... also anything broken ontop of the canister or cracked the entire canister has to be replaced from what I see its all connected as one....I got a new vapor canister for 10 bucks at the local bone yard....If possible would you be able to send me a pic or anyone at all of your vacuum hose routing system (not the diagram) but the actual hoses and engine...Im a little lost.....I also checked my codes and came up with....VSS problem and also, low voltage to fuel pump or fuel pump relay....any tips on how to approach this I would appreciate it....

ps. I passed emissions with flying colors...new exhaust system 200 bucks from local muffler shop..

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

EGR valve hookup is easy. The top line to the regulator comes from the middle small port on the TB vacuum block, which is a ported vacuum source (open only when the throttle plate is open). The bottom line comes out of the valve, goes into a T which is hooked up to both the sensor block, next to the valve, and into the EGR valve itself. There are no other hoses for the EGR.

The other line in that area should come off of the nylon inlet pipe running between the intake manifold (by the PCV valve and the cold start injector in the back next to the dizzy), and it runs to the restrictor for the canister purge valve.

Those are the only vac lines that should be in that area. The HVAC system inlet is supposed to come off of the line running to the cruise modulator and the "orb of power" under the driver's side battery tray, which is fed off of the small port on the T for the brake booster, and the heater control valve line comes right out of the HVAC wire harness and runs straight to the HCV.

:edit: Code 24 is a tricky one to get rid of. FSM says to disregard this code if the vehicle is not moving when the code is set. Code 54 is also tough, but an easy test can tell you if it's a problem in the fuel pump relay wiring or the ECM. Take a 12V feed and ground and run the power feed to the lower left port on the ALDL, and the ground to the upper right. If the pump runs, the ECM is bad and the rest is good.

RustyRed

Thx Maverick,

any chance I could get some pics, I know where your talking about but Im more of a visual learner and some of those phrases I dont know exactly what they are or where they are...Ima newbie to all this just learning as I go sorry....Thanks again for your help

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I can try to get some pics. However, I no longer run my 2.8 plenum and throttle body, and haven't since 2007. I still have my TB, so I can illustrate where the line for the EGR goes into, but the lines that are on my 3.1 will differ for your 2.8. Also, I don't have my factory EGR solenoid any more, I have a newer design that I bought in 05 from the parts store, but the concept is the same. I don't have the nylon pipe for the idle air inlet either, I ditched that with the upper plenum and TB (actually back in 04 when my tube was broken but ran a PVC/rubber replacement without the EECS canister connection).

As for the ALDL... FEDCBA
GHJKLM. Connect 12V to G and ground to A.

ikeepitreelz

Here are some diagrams that might be of use

ikeepitreelz

let me know how it goes, I plugged in my canister purge solenoid and the car dies and then it doesnt start and i have gasoline coming out the canister,now i am getting pissed at this car lol..i should part it out..i ordered the canister from Thirdgengenranch.com ,used but lets see what happens. let me know of those diagrams help out.

RustyRed

All of this makes a lot more sense now that I see it, like I said, Im a beginner, anyways while Im doing that I have a second concern, my fuel pump is humming from the back when my car is running and I was going to change to relay which I do have but....All the relays look the same, on the driver side engine compartment against the firewall there is two that look exactly the same. They are on a plate, (1) is facing the back of the vehicle, slanted at an angle, (2) is facing the front of the vehicle, anyone know which one it is...? both connected to the same support plate back to back...if that is not them is there anywhere else I can look? Thanks guys, Ill let you know bout those vaccum hookups too...

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The F/P relay is the one with the big orange, red, and the gray wires attached to it. Only one of the wires is green, unlike the other 2 in that corner by the brake booster. Swap it with the MAF relay by the air cleaner. Don't start the engine when you test the relay. The pump will run for 2 seconds when the key is turned to the Run position if the circuit is okay. If not...

I'll get pics of the canister and EGR setups in a little while here.

RustyRed

Awesome I bought a new one and swaped it out so now my car fires up every time with no hesitation, its beautiful....Thank you

I appreciate your help maverick, this car has only been one thing after another. I do love it, with a passion but I want to do everything right, you know bring it back to '86 standards...and everyone else and their input you are all good people for taking the time to help someone you dont even know...Thanks again

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Here are the pics. Let me know if the canister one confuses you. I had to pull the can out of the car (it's not like it's hooked up properly anyways).

There are 2 plastic parts in the EVAP can lines. The first is a green Y-shaped T that has the inlet hose coming from the nylon intake pipe by the EGR (which I don't have). The vacuum purge valve that is in between the can and the vapor line has a small hose connected to the small port on this Y. The outlet on this line goes into the restrictor.

The restrictor (looks like a black TT shape) has the inlet coming from the Y, the first side port connected to the upper port on the ECM controlled purge valve, the next port to the lower port on the ECM valve, and the last one connected to the lower port on the canister's vacuum purge valve on the right.

The inline purge valve between the can and the fuel line has the inlet at the fuel line and the lower outlet port connected to the center port on the can. The control port (above the outlet) connects to the small port on the Y.

The vacuum regulated purge valve on the right side of the can has the upper control port connected to the EGR ported vacuum inlet, which is split coming from the throttle body.