I've also talked to the guy on the phone...seems real knowledgable and says he's been building engines for almost 30 years.

The place I'm seriously thinking about is Gustaf's machine shop. Here's the link: http://www.gustafengines.com/

I have the details worked out, and it'll be a 406 pretty much complete (minus intake,carb,dist) for 3900.

Includes: Scat steel crank, JE forged pistons, Dart Iron Eagle heads - ported, Scat rods, Comp cam w/roller tips, broken in and Dynoed.

I'm just leery of laying down that kinda cash to a person unseen and a place unknown. Anyone dealt with them?? Anyone else bought one from the internet from somewhere else?

How'd it turn out?? Thanks in advance for any input!

 

Lots of people looking, but no replies?? , thoughts?

 

Guess not......is this a dumb question?? Or am I just on my own on this one?? I'll try another board...

 

What is the power rating supposed to be? What all is included machine work wise? What kind of heads are they (more specific)? Did he give you a promise on horsepower/torque or a guess? Is it going to be dynoed before you get it?

I like the sound of the parts that are in it, are they I beam rods or H beam rods? Also, can you get me the specs on the cam they are putting in?

Seth

 

Thanks for a reply!! Rods are Scat 4340 Floated rods. I'm asking for 400 HP at the flywheel. They are Dart Iron Eagle II heads with 2.02 intakes and 1.6 exhaust with upgraded porting. Yes, Dyno/break-in with screens is part of the price...No "promise" on Hp though..machining is bored .030 over, internally balancing it, and all the other normal things.

Cam is up in the air so to speak...I was thinking of a Compcams XE268....

 

There are no Dart Iron Eagle II heads... Sportsman II yes, Iron Eagle yes

 

OK - Dart Iron Eagle heads then...

 

That cam is WAY TOO SMALL for a 406. I run the XE274 in a 350 with 9.9:1 and it doesnt really even idle rough. If you are going to stay hydraulic flat tappet, I would go with the XE284. There is no reason that the motor wont make at least 450 horsepower with the right cam. What size are the intake runners on the Iron Eagles?

 

You think the cam is too small?? I want to keep the power in the lower RPM range, say around 1800-5000. So far as the heads, they're 72cc chambers, 200cc intake runners. Using dished pistons, gives me compression of 9:1....Thx for the input!!

 

Honestly you are going to mismatch that motor to hell. You fairly large runner cylinder heads and a lot of displacement, you will want a bigger cam to take advantage of what you have working for you. If you only want to shift the motor at 5000 rpm, then why are you spending big $$$ for forged components in it? I shift a hyp. piston, cast rod, cast crank motor at well over 6000 rpm in a 350 without incident. The XE284 cam will really wake the motor up. You have the displacement to offset any low rpm torque decrease with a larger cam anyway.

 

Thanks again for the input unknown_host....

Using a stock cast crank isn't an option - The steel crank is needed for internal balancing. If I were running an automatic - then I was told I could use a 400 flywheel and balancer, but the flywheel will not work for a 5 speed.....thus the internal balance so I can reuse my flywheel. Is this right, or total BS???

I was originally going to use Hyper pistons, but I switched to forged for a few reasons..1. 200 grams lighter than hypers - 2. Since I'm forced to run a steel crank, and upgraded rods, why not?? and 3. Who knows, down the road I may want to run a small shot of nitrous, if I get hypers, i've cut myself off from that option. My cam selection is up the the air - I plan to call Compcams, Crane etc to find out what the best grind will be.

I've been told by many people that I shouldn't need to wind this motor up to get power from it. Thats why I'd like max torque and HP to come in at around 5500 max.

Thanks for the help! If you think there's a better combo for me out there - I'm all ears, cause I'm almost ready to order this thing! -

 

Not that this matters but I ran a 150 shot on my motor for a whole year and nothing happened to my hyper pistons. The ring gap is whats important if you run nitrous. Of course if you plan on running anything more then a 150 shot forged pistons is the safe way to go. With regards to the camshaft I would simply call the manufacturer and see what they say. They make the cam and would be able to tell you how to most effectively put together a combination. The problem with running a big cam is on the dyno you might make big hp and then due to improper gear, tire size and converter choice you may not see the full potential of that 400 hp at the track.

Combination is the most important factor in generating a fast car.

Just my opinion

 

only 400 hp with those heads and that engine? IF you are only going to make 400 hp you don't need all the steel and forged stuff, theres just no reason. According to desktop dyno and my machinst I should have between 470-500hp and the crank.

I agree combonation is everything, I got lucky, I researched mine and it's worked out well so far.

KB silvo-lite pistons will take 100-150 shot no problem, just make sure you gap the rings right.

Cam selection should depend on your cylinder head flow #'s and what Rpm band you want to run in, then your stall speed and rear gear selection should come from that.

That's not a bad price for everything. I have probably close to that in mine but I have a roller cam which made it more expensive but I also build my engine which saved me some money.

As far as cylinder heads go, I have the protopline 220cc heads and am happy with them. I got my set for 789 I think w/ 2.05/1.60 valves.

If I ended up building my engine w/o a roller cam I would have went with the 284xtreme cam.

On chevy high perfomance's website they did the exact same up, SCAT rotating assembly, pistons, 284xtreme cam and dart 215cc heads and made around 470hp/500ft lbs on 9.5:1

IMO, thats a damn good setup and price isn't to bad either.

Later

 

The whole point of having a light rotating assembly is to have a motor that can turn some rpm- and quickly. I am not saying that you need to shift this motor at 7800 rpm- although i have friends with the same components your motor will have (except the cam) doing so.

However, the XE268 is a really small cam for a 350. A 350 could probably idle down around 650 rpm with the XE268.

Also, you are going to want something with more than 224/230* of duration @ .050 to feed those larger 200cc intake runners and the extra 56 cubic inches of displacement you have over a 350.

Couple that with the fact that your heads dont really start flowing until .500 and .600 lift and that the XE268 cam has .477/.480, and I am hoping you can see where I am coming from. Being 100% completely on the safe side, you could shift that motor at 6000-6200 rpm.

 

And the reason I am pushing this is it would probably be a 50-75 horsepower difference between the XE268 and the XE284...

 

Wow!! Thanks for all the great ideas!! I do notice one thing though. I don't know why everyone is asking why I am choosing the internals I listed.
I've been led to understand, both by reading and by the machine shop, and I thought I explained on the post above.....

..if you are running a factory 400 sbc with cast crank, which is EXTERNALLY balanced, a 400 flywheel and harmonic balancer MUST be used....which is no problem when you are putting an automatic behind it.

This is a problem however, when trying to bolt up a T-5 behind it. The flywheel is different I'm told, because 400 stick shift cars are rare. That's why I am forced to get the engine INTERNALLY balanced which is why the steel crank and upgraded rods are required. Granted, forged pistons aren't needed and after your suggestions, I may go with hypers. The forged added 250 to the price.

Thanks! I intend to research the cam much further...But this will be a 90% of the time street car. The XE268 was suggested by another person on the board- but I wanted to make it emissions legal at that time..but my plans have changed since then, so that won't be an issue. I still want the power to be in by 5500 though if possible. I don't want to end up with no low end power.

I think it's a decent price too! I've rebuilt 4 engines so far, including the L69 I have now, so I'm an experienced novice. The wife thinks I'm insane of course, for wanting a bigger motor since this one screams (for a 305) and has maybe 10,000 miles...but that's another issue

At the prices he's quoting me, I don't see any benefit in me building it myself. I'd pay more for the parts alone plus machining. Not to mention, he's supplying the block.

I also agree 200%!! That's why I appreciate the input!! Any good articles or sites to find more info?? -

 

BTW - feel free to keep any more combo suggestions you have comin!!

Thanks in advance!

 

You just don't know how much that blurb helped me!!

I just checked out an extremely informative article on thier site. Here it is: http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te.../148_0306_406/

Not the one you're referring to, but the one in the link above is what I want!! :hail:

The only deviations I would have are: I'd still like to run the Dart iron heads, use my brand new Weiand intake, and stay CCC controlled if it's possible. Or do I need to ditch the computer all together?

Do you think the Dart heads flow as well, or better than the GM vortecs??

Also I noticed they ran forged pistons.

Thanks alot!! :hail:

 

What in the hell is a blurb?

 

werd.. that cam is to small.. hell mine is to small.. and look at the #'s i got with to small of injectors, and a not so great chip. now i have the other stuff fixed.. my i need to put a better cam in there.. i jsut dotn wanna deal with a cam swap. i had to make sure my car got thru emissions with this engine... so i had to go with the 195 heads... and not the 220s * i know i wouldnt have even passed these damn AZ emissions laws with 220 and a ***** cam* so now that i know its all good.. time for some ungodly nitrous cam (i want a min of 450 rwhp and 500rwtq) before my 200+ shot.

 

Sorry - didn't mean to confuse ya. I meant the line you wrote about checking the magazine site. That was the "blurb" I was referring to...anyways, it helped me quite a bit - thanks.

Do you mean the cam in the link I posted is too small also???

I'll ask again......

Do you think I can run the Dart iron heads instead of vortecs, use a Weiand action plus intake (which I already have), and stay CCC controlled and still come close to the torque and HP in the article???

-- Or am I better off staying strictly with the exact same parts that they used??

I just hate the thought of ditching a brand new Q-jet, and Weiand intake if I don't really need to.

Oh....BTW, just wanted to add that I checked out your post from the buildup you did LilJayV10, (https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=182399) -and I see you know all the "ins and outs" for what I'm trying to do here. I appreciate any of your expertize on this if you don't mind sharing it. That goes for everyone else too! -Thanks again!

 

confuzed1,

I don't think I have any expertice but I will try to give you an info I have that could help. IMO, there is no way you are going to be able to run a CC carb, I don't see why you would want to. A holley 750DP would be your best best. A edlebrock RPM or AIR gap manifold would be a good choice.
I have a holley street dominator intake thats ported, I put my stock stealth intake on and it killed the engine. I also think that the action intake is a low-rise dual plane whereas you will need something taller and with better ports formore air flow. You have to understand you are not just feeding a mild 350, this engine wants/needs ALOT of air flow. The difference between stock ports and the ports on the 220cc protoplines are unbelievable. I use a felpro 1206 intake gasket.

I personally don't know anything about the dart heads, I don't know the cost or the flow numbers. I paid 789 for my heads assembled with good parts, valves/bigger springs/retainers, guideplates and screw in studs. They flow really close to AFR220 heads but cost less than half. The extra 900 dollars was not worth the few extra cfm's and to be able to everyone, yeah I have AFR's. I would spend that 900 bucks somewhere else, like a good converter, suspension parts or a 100 shot or spend that money to have them ported and really flow well.

I think I mentioned this before but, the way my machinst explained it to me is, stock parts setup properly will take alot of abuse. I was going to get the SCAT steel crank & rods but they talked me out of it. They talked me out of alot of high dollar stuff I was thinking about doing because they felt I didn't need it. They actually lost money because they did this which tells me something about them. Unless you are going to spin the engine 6500+rpms or spray the everlovin **** out of it, I think stock parts would be ok. Is the forged and steel stuff stronger? Yup. Is it cool? Yup. Is it more expensive? Hell yeah.
It just depends on what you are going to do with it.
I have to go to work now.
Later

I fixed all of my spelling/grammar errors. geez I can't spell sometimes.

Jason

 

First, thanks for the info LilJayV10!!

My plans have changed once again with help from you guys! I'm working this out with the machine shop now. Emissions is out of the equation now- I found a way around it. I'm gonna lose the computer also.

We're gonna try staying loosely with the combo in this article:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te.../148_0306_406/

But instead of Vortecs, will use Dart iron heads cause he says they'll outflow the Vortecs, are a thicker casting which he'll port out. The Darts also have bigger valves and intake runners.

Also using a Professional products air gap intake instead of Edelbrock (cheaper, yet the same thing). Also I backed down to Keith Black KB-130 hypers, cast steel crank with 6"rods. Compression will still end up around 9.5:1 or a bit less, so I can run on pump gas.

Also no Holley 750 cfm mech secondary carb- he says a Demon will outflow a Holley silly, and will cost the same. Also he says to use a mechanical advance dist and no vacuum.

He'll be sending me two prices: one for the short block alone, and another for a complete engine including dyno. I'm even invited to come to his shop to watch it get dynoed it if I want!!

I asked him if changing around the combo listed in the article above would hinder the HP and TQ, but he says he'll not only match it - but most likely beat it!! This is sounding awesome!

 

sounds good. If you plan on driving it on the street a vacuum advance distributer would be better for fuel mileage. Any flow numbers on the dart heads? which ones are you getting? Are you planning on the 284xtreme cam? Keep up posted.
Jason

 

Here's the flow #'s:

Dart 200cc Iron : Flow, Intake: 262cfm @ .500” lift / 28” Flow, Exhaust: 175cfm @ .600” lift / 28”

Vortec: Flow, Intake: 239cfm @ .500" lift / Exhaust 147cfm @ .500" lift

You learn the good and bad about Vortecs - look at this site!

http://www.2quicknovas.com/vortecheads.html

I'm thinking a Lunati Hyd tappet for the cam. I just don't wanna shell out the 600 extra bucks right now for rollers even though I know I could get a better grind if I did.

Anyways, it's the cam in the article I posted above.....480 lift, 230 duration as I recall, but not 100%.

But that could be subject to change.

I know vacuum ad dist. would be better for gas, but for some reason the guy at the shop says it'll hinder the low end grunt, and discourages me from going with one....

I'll keep everyone posted, I certainly have so far!!

 

To use those heads to their potential you are going to want alot bigger cam, something with 230degrees@.050 and defintely more than .480 lift. IMO those heads are small for a 406. Those are pretty decent numbers especially at .500 lift. My heads flow 282/195 @.700. With the cam I am using, only about 3/4 of the heads are being used. Thats why I am thinking about a solid roller in the future. If the heads flow well at the lower lift numbers you are still going to need more duration to fill the cylinders up.

crap, its like 2am and I have to be at work at 8. maybe i'll make more sense tomrrow.

buy a bigger cam!!and it doesn't have to be a roller. the 274 or 284xtreme cam would be good IMO.

 

But remember - The flow numbers on the Dart heads are UNPORTED numbers....once ported I'll get a bit more flow. And porting is almost a must for those heads, that's why the castings are made thicker for that reason. I'm sure they'll flow a bit more at .700" lift, even out-of-the-box.

I fully agree about possibly a bigger cam. Like I said -subject to change and probably will....

 

I didn't know you were going to have them ported. I seriously doubt that the darts flow to .700 lift, if they did they would advertise it. The protopline heads as I mentioned flow 282/195 or whatever, at the .560/.580 lift I am running the heads are probably only flowing 270/190, the heads probably outflow the engine right now but thats ok, it will leave room for improvements later on. however I would check to see what the darts flow after .500, does it stay about the same or does it completely drop off?

 

Now that you mention it LilJayV10 - .500 is the max flow for the heads. I'd have to step up to the 215cc in order to get max flow and more cfm, but at .600 lift.....I may do that - same price.

I understand what you're saying but I don't want to lose velocity, because AFAIK, that would hinder low RPM performance, and make it stronger up top.... - assuming I cammed it to the upper flow range of the heads. Make sense, or am I way off with that statement??

I don't want to overflow OR underflow it. Just trying to get together the right intake, cam and head combo for max performance up to 6000 rpm's. But if I was planning to upgrade later I'd select a head like yours.

Those are serious flow #'s!! I'd get that solid roller if I were you!!:hail:

 

200 or 215cc on a mild 400 isn't to big, if it was a 350 I'd say don't do it. Going with a little bit bigger head that flows to .600 lift IMO would be better because it would give you alot more cam options, lift and duration wise and as you said yourself you need a little bigger cam. So to take advantage of the cam you are going to need a larger runner head. You could get the heads that stop flowing at .500 and spend the money and port them or go with a larger head out of the box, especially if you said you can get them for the same price.

If you were going to go with a small cam, 214/224 or somthing like that, then yes I'd say heads that flow to .500 lift would be good for what you are using them for, but since its a 400 and it needs more air, you can go bigger on the cam/heads and get away with it and in return make a **** load more power. I can't tell you have streetable and fun my car is to drive, the cam is 288/294 236/242 .560/.580 lift w/ 1.6 rockers and its very smooth. One reason is, as I mentioned, a bigger engine can "absorb" more cam than a smaller engine and the same way with the heads. It idles at about 900 rpm and sounds like a prostreet car.

I don't mean to repeat myself, and if i have I am sorry. I just want to make sure that if you are going to spend the money for a 400, that you get the most out of it as possible. I am having a blast with mine.

 

sorry man all i know about building an engine is maximum air in maximum air out at the lowest compession possible for maximum power. im gonna be doing the same thing your doing now when i start building my 383 tuned port soory wish i could be of some help

 

Did I read that artilce right? Did they get 470hp/500ft lbs from a 400 with vortec heads and a lunati cam? wow, thats crazy, thats about what my engine should have. I can't believe that it made that much power but if it did it did.

 

Yea, but thats Flywheel horsepower with open headers! Plus they tuned that motor perfectly I'm sure!

 

I'd be careful about that unless he's givin you some kind of guarantee on paper..

 

Well, they do have a 230cc intake runner head - here's the flow numbers for them: Flow, Intake: 308cfm @ .700” lift / 28” - Flow, Exhaust: 207cfm @ .700” lift / 28” It's listed for "serious street/strip competition".

That's the largest they have in the Iron Eagle lineup. How's these sound?? BTW, they recommend a single plane intake, which I'm not too keen on running because I've always heard they are designed for upper rpm power....

Yeah, that's the numbers they got with Vortec heads!! Was it tuned properly??? I bet - but that's the advantage of having one dynoed...still a good 380 HP or so left for the rear wheels!

That's about the numbers I want to end up with on whatever combo I figure out...

I do believe I'll get the warranty in writing IF I pay to have it broken in and dynoed. Not sure for the short block - not many places will give you a big warranty for those...since they aren't setting up the valve train etc...they have a good idea what most guys buy a 400 for..

 

OK, Ive pretty much decided on what I'm getting for the winter project, partly to the great info you guys gave me, along with Ron Gustaf's advice. I gotta admit, he's been patient with all the questions I've asked so far.

I do have a good feeling about buying from him, after a couple phone conversations and numerous emails.

Here's the setup:

406 sbc, Scat steel crank and 6" rods, KB130 dished hyper pistons-should end up with a little over 9:1 compression for pump gas.

-Dart Iron Eagle 72cc chamber iron heads, 215cc intake, 2.05 intake valves, 1.6 exhaust. w/upgraded porting job.

- Performance Products RPM Air Gap intake with Speed Demon 750 carb, mechanical advance distributor (what brand?).

- Comp cam XE284H cam, with Crane 1.5 roller tip rockers.

- I'm keeping the headers and Hooker catback I have now. Will need to change the rear later to at least a posi.

I'll be there to watch the engine be broken in and dynoed/tuned/timed/jetted. Obviously, gas milage and emissions are not a consideration....streetable torque and HP are. Any estimates on what I should expect so far as HP and torque with this??

 

Sorry I didn't answer back sooner, I have been extremly busy. I was gonna say the 230cc heads might be a little big depending on your cam selection.

However the setup you have choosen IMO is a very good one. I think it will be just as streetable as mine and should make lots and lots of power. :rockon:

If you have an automatic I highly recomend getting a good tourqe converter, there is such a big difference I can't even explain. I have a ACT 9.5 behind my 406 and its awesome. We(my friend and I) didn't realize how sloppy and worthless big convetors are. My friend has a 71 firebird w/ a mild 455, he was going to put a 4 speed in it but after riding in my car he decided to get a good converter instead. We finished putting it in tonight and its a different car. It's amazing. Do yourself a favor and don't skimp on this, you will be so much more happier and feel your money/time was well spent if you do.
Keep up posted.
Later

 

Thanks again LilJayV10 - But if you look at my sig, I have a T-5 that will hopefully take any thing this 406 can throw at it. (cross fingers)

I thought the 230cc runners would be just a tad extreme, so I decided on the 215cc as a compromise. And stepped up the cam...

- Back in the day, I worked with a guy that had a 74 Formula that had the 455, and shaker scoop, all factory with a 4-speed. Those were serious torque monsters, or at least felt like it!!

 

I hope that isn't stock T-5