Well, Im seriously considering a single plane conversion to replace my SuperRam. This will not happen quickly, as I would like to gather the parts, and not break the bank.

I have two questions maybe someone can answer.

1) Has any one used a Hurricane intake? Looks just like a Dart or Victor. How do you like it? It seems you cant beat the price.

2) The injector bungs, did you weld them, or epoxy them?

Thanks, any replies would be helpful.

 

Not sure about the intake but you cant epoxy in injector bungs.

 

Your car is soo hott.

I used 1/2" id pipe for the intake I made, which ran great.

My new intake is an aftermarket EFI intake, but the motor blew up before I got a chance to run it.

The home-made one though, was a holley street-dominator, and the car ran 119mph every pass as opposed to 110mph witht he aftermarket ported TPI stuff. Thats a CONSISTANT difference - i.e, the TPI setup ran 110 every pass for 2 years, the singleplane ran 119mph every pass for the remainder of the season when I did the conversion.

Holley sells bungs you can weld in. If your good at welding aluminum, and have a mill than its fairly easy to make your own intake. The thing that I never was happy with was the fuel rail mounts.

-- Joe

 

I asked this same question on another site and got a simple clean method to do the bungs. Here is a quote.

BTW I can get liquid nitrogen easily at any welding supply house here. You probably can rent the containers to transport the liquid nitrogen. Im sure you could just freeze the bungs overnight in a freezer if this is to hard for you.

 

Thank you for the replies, guys. Like I said, Im not in a hurry to do a conversion at this moment, but now is as good of time as any to start to gather the parts. The current S/R will not feed the engine the air it needs.

I found out from my engine builder that the Hurricane intakes are cast in China. A few members on the boards have had luck with the Vortec Hurricanes. I might just get the Edelbrock Victor E#29785, and save some fabrication. Port matching this one to my Track 1s would be easier than fabricating a non EFI manifold.

Thanks for the compliment Joe.

 

I have the hurricane intake. I think the quality is just as good as my stealth ram was or any other manifold I have owned. I have heard poeple having trouble with them though. Just make sure that you can return it if you got a bad one (on the off chance).

 

with out some kind of selent dose this cause a vac leak???

 

I believe if you are very precise with you dimensions you shouldnt have any leaks. I know the member who suggested this method and he has been using his intake for a few years now without any leaks. I trust his expertise and he knows his stuff.

For reference here is what his engine looks like now so you can get an idea of his workmanship.

 

one word comes to mind....WOW

 

I drill and ream the holes to a precise dimension. Then I machine the bungs to fit the hole. The bungs are .0010"-.0012" larger then the reamed hole. I place the intake in an oven and heat to 350 degrees. I freeze the bungs. In the case of the Enderle I used liquid nitrogen to speed the freezing. Drop the cold bungs in the hot manifold and the bungs are now attached. Clean and simple(if the equipment is available to you).

That can work, but get all of the equipment (micrometer, caliper, ream) to do all of that work and measuring it right will be harder than you think. If you don't believe me I can do the equation for the thermal expansion of aluminum to show you how exact it has to be. It will be easier and less time consuming to just weld or epoxy them in.

 

True but lots of guys like a clean look especially when its a show car and thats why lots of people prefer to do it this way. You would still need the proper tools to weld the bungs and probably be just as costly and im not so sure it would be easy. Im pretty sure a welder would cost more than a micrometer, caliper, ream all put together price wise. I also know to weld aluminum you need a pretty decent rig to do so. Epoxy can be great but their is a very great possibility of failure too. I can vouche for the freezing and heating method as I have done it with motorcycle clutches with much success.

 

Good point, shaggy. I understand that the aluminum must be ABSOLUTLEY clean, also, before welding. I heard of using epoxy, but if it could fail,(in my case would fail, LOL), welding seems to be the way to go.

The Edelbrock EFI manifold keeps looking better!

 

Well welding aluminum from what I understand is best done with a gas shielding to prevent aluminum oxide. It is very different than welding steel. Aluminum and aluminum oxide have very different melting points and if aluminum oxide is not prevented then you will have problems and possibly ruin the parts. Also you will need a pretty high end welder. You wont want a cheap home depot welder or what have you.

Here is a link to welding aluminum.

http://www.nomma.org/support/Welding...0Aluminum.html

 

Thanks for the info...Believe me, if i do go this route, I have a friend, who is a qualified welder, that has a few welders. Ive seen his aluminum welds. This is somthing I wont do, as I dont even own a welder.

 

Yeah its nice having friends with tools and experience. I have a friend that welds and has the setup to do aluminum as well. He also has a sweet set of micrometers and such. I may end up doing the freeze and drop idea since it comes out so much cleaner. Its really not that hard. I know it sounds scary but i have done it and it really works.

 

Why not?

A lot of epoxys out there are chemical resistant and have stronger bonds then a proper aluminum weld (which usually is about half as strong as the base metal if done right). Even dead common JB Weld fits that category.

I never liked the idea of welding them since in a lot of cases you have to get close enough to the flange that you’re just about guaranteed some distortion and possibly cracking

As far as the cooling/heating thing, I've done it for assorted parts and I'm curious how close the tolerances need to be to work in aluminum, if they can be achieved with some fairly normal hand tools... I may have to look into that to see. One thing for sure, I'd try to keep whatever you're using for bungs fairly thin with that procedure, since if whatever it is has any real strength it could very well crack the manifold when everything equalizes in temperature

 

i started useing jb weld to hold the bungs in, i was grinding the bung out of the runner and broke the jb weld, gos to prove one thing, welders do still have a job for a reasion

 

Im quoting what I wrote before because this is the tolerance I believe you were looking for. Its been done just so you know I linked a photo to the exact intake it was done on. Here is the engine again it was done on.

 

Not to be too technical...Steel has a much lower melting point than 2800 degrees F. Pure iron has a melting point of 2800. It is generally true that any alloy of a given metal has a lower melting point than that of its original element. Most cast irons have a melting point of around 2200-2300 with most steels being even lower than that. I can attest to the melting point of aluminum oxide in that the refractory used in the furnaces and ladles where I work is alumina based and rated at around 3500. I just sometimes hate see any info on the net being wrong or misleading. To test this information try cutting a piece of steel with a cutting torch and try cutting an engine block and you will see that steel has the lower melting point. And no, your typical oxy acetylene torch will not burn at 2800. It is also important to note that most aluminum is welded with AC which burns hotter than DC to burn off this aluminum oxide. Stainless steel is another issue that we will dicuss during tomorrow's lecture. Class dismissed. (finally used some of my unfinished engineering schooling)

 

Oh, that was just PAINFULL. I mean really, brutally, ice pick through the brain, getting your nuts caught in a pair of vise grips painful.

Without getting too scientific (some of this is much oversimplified ignoring chemical and electro-magnetic factors that do infuence the final result but I'm not goign to write a freaking book):

Pure iron has a melting point of 2786*F

Most steels are in the 2650-2760*F range, stainless steels like 316 is down towards the bottom of that range, structural steels like 1018, 1020… are usually towards the top of that range within a few degrees of pure iron.

“cast iron” is around 2300*F (I say around since there are at least 3 major categories of “cast iron” and dozens of sub alloys). I don’t know of ANY steels lower then cast iron by at least 300*.

Pure aluminum is 1218*F, the assorted alloys are between 950-1300*F

Melting is SIGNIFICANTLY different then “taking a cutting torch to.” A cutting torch works by blasting and burning away the actual metal, you use the torch to heat a small point of it to near it’s melting temperature then you blast it with the high pressure oxygen jet (lever on the torch that forces O2 at a few times the pressure that it’s being mixed with the cutting fuel through just the center hole in the cutting tip) that blasts the steel out of the way, mixing it with oxygen and allowing it to burn. Depending on what the fuel is you’re mixing with the O2 to cut it, you’re only left with between 0 and 40% of the steel that you blast out of the kerf, the rest is used as fuel. That is the reason why different metals cut differently (or don’t cut at all) with a cutting torch, because of their chemical properties. It has nothing to do with the metal’s melting temperature (try cutting aluminum with a normal cutting torch, should be easy but it isn’t).

Secondly, trying to melt an engine block with a torch is hard not because of a high melting temperature (it’s lower then everything else in this discussion so far besides aluminum, of course I guess that the block could be aluminum), but because of it’s large mass. You’ll melt a 100# block of cast iron with much less heat then you will melt a 100# block of ANY KIND of steel.

Acetylene is actually a compound, like gasoline, so it has no set burning temperature but depending on the mixture a torch flame using it as fuel burns at between 5800 and 6300* F (yes, you read that right, 2-6.5x the melting temperature of all the metals mentioned in this thread). It can EASILY melt any of those metals with it.

About THE ONLY thing in your whole post that I see that is correct is that aluminum oxide does melt at roughly 3x the melting temperature of the aluminum base alloy, but that isn’t why you use AC current to weld it and AC current DOES NOT “burn hotter” then DC.

To start with neither AC nor DC “burn” AT ALL. The welding arc plasma on a MIG (GMAW) welder is typically around 25,000-30,000*C (about 43,000*F) and typically a TIG (GTAW) arc plasma is around 5000*C cooler (this is why I keep telling people that you can actually get a better weld with a better/smaller heat effected zone with a MIG if you know what you’re doing, the problem with MIG over TIG is it’s harder to control that arc, especially in small spaces, it takes more talent to make a pretty weld with a TIG… anyway more on that some other time). It doesn’t matter if it’s AC or DC current making that arc.

The direction of the electron flow does make a difference WRT to the heat imparted to the base metal/weld, and DCEP (yes, DC current) “puts the most heat in the metal,” followed by AC and finally DCEN, this is one reason why you get better penetration running normal flux core mild steel wire then the same diameter gas shielded wire, because you swap polarity to run it (only part of the story, there’s also a surface area density deal where the hollow flux core has a smaller surface area then the same diameter solid wire, but that’s another issue).

The reason that most modern TIG welders use AC to weld aluminum is that the AC “cleans” the weld, the current swapping back and forth vibrates the impurities out of the weld onto the surface of the bead where they can be cleaned off. The fact is that you need to get all the aluminum oxide off of the aluminum before you weld it because nothing, not even AC current will get rid of it during welding, and aluminum oxide absorbs water which brakes down, forces the O and H into the weld resulting in a porous weld and hydrogen embitterment (IE a crappy, leaky, weak worthless, ****ty looking weld, that is if you manage to form a proper weld puddle at all).

NOW class is dismissed. Have a nice day class

 

OK 83, now you made my brain hurt!

 

All I can say is come to my work where we make over 1000 tons of grey iron per day. We melt plenty of structural steel by the way. Let me know when you are in the Indianapolis area so i can take on a tour.

 

Read slowly, note anything that you find interesting (exact numbers aren’t what it’s all about) and it will make sense… if not, just stab your brain with a pencil a few times and it will submit

 

Mark, if I paid you enough (say in beer), could you teach me how to MIG weld? I can arc weld now...

 

With today's lecture I would like mark to explain the difference between embitterment and embrittlement and would embrittlement also be an issue in aluminum when not welding it properly. This is not a test you seem knowledgeable enough to answer this question.....I feel too lazy today to look it up. I think that the two seem one in the same but I am sure I am wrong.

 

Don't have that intake. i took a Vic. jr and comverted it.
Made my own bungs , milled the intake and had a buddy of mine weld em in.

Index of /images/CarStuff/92Z/TurboMotor/VicJrConversion

 

Not really sure what you’re getting at and am also too lazy (it’s almost 2am, my eyes are barely open) to look up a formal definition, but nutshell, embitterment is the contamination of (in the previous discussion it would be the contamination of the base metal with hydrogen) and embitterment is the result of the contamination (the metal in the weld and HAZ become brittle because of the embitterment)

If you’re serious, you do realize that you’re in germany and I’m on the east coast of the US… that would be one hell of an expensive welding lesson. FWIW, I can MIG weld quite well but it’s not like I’m a professional or welding instructor, I just have a tendency to soak up information for anything that is interesting/important to me.

FWIW #2: if you pick up a few books and try to soak up all the theory about it that you can you can adjust to different/new situations quickly based on that, but the fact is that “sitting down and doing it” will teach you how it looks and feels when you get it right and what kinds of things you can do (your and your equipment’s limitations and capabilities). Like I know for a fact that some accepted weave patterns for MIGing the combination of me and the welders that I use most of the time don’t seem to have much success with, and at the same time I’ve watched a friend of mine carefully study how I ran a bead and try to duplicate it and he couldn’t do it at all and kept making cold start boogers right next to spots that he burned through.

If by arc you mean stick… a lot of what you know there applies to MIG. I think that stick is much harder to learn to do “well enough” but once you figure it out it seems like there is very little difference between “well enough” and “very well,” where with MIG usually someone that knows what they’re doing can set the welder give a 10 second demonstration and then hand the gun to a total noob and they’ll be able to stick metal together and after a few hours of practice be able to do it “well enough” to get reliable welds, but then they could spend years trying to figure out how to do it “very well.” Very small changes with MIG seem to have a much more dramatic effect on the results then they do with any other type of welding and even people that have done it for years and are confident of their ability will learn something new just about every time they pick up the gun.