yep...definitely don't know a thing when it comes to fuel injection, but i'm curious what it'll take to keep my solid cam and go to EFI. i've managed to get my carbed 305 with a 238*/248* .480"/.500" 114lsa solid flat tappet cam to run VERY well, but i'm hoping to put boost on her in the near future and while a blow through carb set up would be super cool, the driveability is questionable with that, so i'm considering going to EFI to keep driveability up. so, how can i get around the knock sensors picking up on the noisy valvetrain? or do i have to back to a hydrualic camshaft? i realize that a stock computer is not going to run this motor without serious prom tuning and whatnot, but i'm hoping someone can point in me in the right direction...i'm wanting to keep my options totally open, but at the same time, budget is a bit of a concern...

 

You can run EFI without a knock sensor, it's just there as a safety measure. Since you're used to running and tuning with a carb that doesn't even have a knock sensor (which you're doing now) then you should be fine to run without it. You can also change the ammount of timing retard and the reaction, but I would imagine you're best off just removing it.

 

i was wondering if i could just delete it from the computer, but i just don't know what is possible.

 

I don't know about deleting it from the computer but you can just not wire it up, or keep it from removing any timing I know you can do both of those operations.

 

I have a buddy running a solid roller setup and he has no problems with valvetrain noise causing problems with the knock sensor. You don't state which ECM/calibration you are using. But for the $8D and $6E you can adjust the parameters on the knock sensor to not pull any timing out if that's what you wish. But, I wouldn't worry about the solid cam making so much noise as to trigger the knock sensor.

 

thanks for the response guys! i'm not currently running EFI and it'll be a while before it all happens, but i had that question and wanted to see what you guys thought.

 

There is no need to be afraid of a solid cam and EFI (and knock sensor). It is just another "myth".

My buddy's solid roller cam is 248/252 @ .050 with a 110LSA. He initially had a 222/230 @ .050 with a 112LSA Hydraulic roller. He's running the $6E MAF and other than tuning the WOT (for fueling) and some extra spark, the previous "bin" I made for him worked perfectly.

When he was swapping to a solid roller, I told him he should have gone bigger with a narrower LSA but he too was frightened of the tuning aspect (initially). Now he wishes he had gone bigger with a narrower LSA like I encouraged him.

Do NOT be afraid to go to the "wild side".

 

Just out of curiosity, unless it's a question of money, why would you want to run a solid flat tappet cam in a street car? There are tons of hydraulic and hydraulic roller cams that would not give up any power, allow you to run a knock sensor and eliminate the constant adjustment.

 

Yea, Matt, I also run a solid roller in my car. Its a pretty "mild" cam, 236/242, with a 114* LSA. I would have went larger, with a narrower LSA, when the engine was going together, but, I never thought I would ever be programming my own eproms.

 

cause i already have it for one thing...and i'm sorry, but a hydrualic camshaft will not make the same power as a solid cam...no way you can convince me after experiencing this camshaft...and constant adjustment? eh...that's debatable. the car gets adjusted quite frequently anyhow...i mean, c'mon, it's a 305 and it runs mid 12's n/a...there's bound to be something that comes outta wack on a regular basis, lol!

well, since this is a fairly mild camshaft (238*/248* 114*lsa) then i suppose i'm probably going to be ok...thinking of running a single plane intake with an elbow throttle body or a converted lt1 intake. what gm ecu's will run this camshaft? only reason i ask is to keep cost down some...DFI or F.A.S.T. is not exactly in the budget.

 

Matt, you can go with either the GM SD setup used in 90-92 or the GM MAF setup used on 1989 cars. Both would work well. If you go SD, then look at the Single Plane converted to EFI port injection with a 4 BBL TB. Tom (aka Brutalform) has been looking at that himself.

 

I agree. For one thing you just cannot rev a hydraulic cam the same as a solid cam. Especially when you compare roller cams - hydraulic rollers are HEAVY. My friend who switched to a solid roller did so because he started to have "valve train" issues with the hydraulic roller requiring changing nearly all of his valves. He never revved his engine beyond 6,000 rpm with his hydraulic roller, though the engine easily made power beyond 6,000 rpm. Thank god for a rev limiter.

With his solid roller, his engine EASILY makes power past 7,000 rpm (but he adheres to a 6,800 rpm rev limit). And he too doesn't have to constantly adjust his valves. He does it as part of his "tune-up" routine. His car is NOT a daily driver but it is driven weekly and puts about 10,000 miles a year on the car (usually with a long "holiday" trip included).

He does two or three "tune-ups" a year, and that is more because he enjoys tinkering with his car. He probably could get away with just one tune-up a year but he needs his "grease fix".

"Solid cams require constant adjustment" is another myth IMO.

BTW, Tom, have you ever had any issues with your knock sensor and solid roller cam setup have you? We've never encounterd any problem with Keith's setup.

 

yeah, this cam is supposed to make power to 6500rpms, but it pulls HARD way past that...i just don't think my 981-16 comp springs are up to the task of too many 7000+rpm passes, lol! valve float is advertized on this camshaft at 7600rpms.

i set valve lash about 3 times a year and i DO daily drive this car.

 

No, Glenn. I have my "Maximum Knock Retard vs. RPM (in P.E.)" table, in $8D, capped at 1.1 degree, from 2400 RPM on up. My cam makes very little noise, as it is a tight lash cam.

 

I run a 242/242 112lsa solid roller in my 406. I also use a DFI Gen 6 for engine management. I had problems with spark retard when running an LPE 219 HR. I just pulled the knock sensor and disconnected the module.

The solid roller is just plain Bad A$$!

 

Checked the forum for another topic to move this cam discussion to but couldn't find one. I want to stay on topic and after much thought, the question of solid cams and EFI really is relevant so I will pursue it. Agree, disagree or just sit back and read.

In the late '60s there was a famous small displacement engine with a solid cam that turned 7000 RPM and beyond. Made by Chevy, you may have heard of it. Went fast...VERY fast...if you went 1,2,3,4 ( sorry, no automatics 'cuz there wasn't any vacuum or bottom end) But is was NO FUN to drive at any other time. It was, after all, supposed to be a street car.While it made an interesting small cube race engine, there were many faster hydraulic cammed engines that were far less hassle.

Mechanics started refusing to do warranty adjustment of valves on this little guy and soon all solid cams were taboo because of this myhtical periodic maintenance. ("Ticked" them off...pun intended)

It was not my intention to knock solid lifter cams (no pun intended). They do have a seroius place both in dedicated race vehicles and our automotive history.I will never deny that hydraulic cams cannot rev to the same ultimate RPM levels and hydraulic rollers do have a severe weight penalty. If you consider the late 50's as the "begining" of the V8 era and that solids in factory produced cars were gone by the end of the 60's, you'll see that hydraulics have been dominant for a long time. Solid cams required too much adjustment, like it or not. Solid cams continue to exist in street vehicles for the same reason carburetors, glass packs and skinny front tires hang around. Individuality. Even when other options exist. Note that I said "other" not "better". One is a fact, one is opinion.

So back to this amazing 12 second 305. An engine which, like the camshaft in it, would not be the first choice of many people. And this is the beauty of your combination. Could you still go 12's with a 305 and a hydraulic cam? Could it be done at a lower RPM? Higher RPM? Will EFI make it faster? Slower? Get better fuel economy, run upside down or just plain puke its guts out?

Nobody....I repeat....NOBODY knows for sure what particular combination will do until it is tried. Your descision to run a solid cam in a 305 street car was probably not suggested by the cam manufacturer....the "experts" on the product. I have gone faster using a Pontiac 455 with a Ram Air IV hydraulic cam which has similar specs to your solid. I turned no more than 5800 RPM and I'll bet mileage and driveability were superior. This same cam in a Pontiac 301 would turn far too many RPM's to think about a hydraulic turning, just before the inevitable explosion, and would have trouble making 13's.

So the point I make is this, DO run a solid cam in a little motor ( "engine" if you want to play technical but then what about "General Motors" "Daytona Motor Speedway" and "Ford Motor Company" ?) Have a blast doing it. Turn as many Rs as your combination will let you. Just remember that the same reason you are considering EFI is the same reason solids were abandonded, sometimes tuning the fuel system by taking it apart gets old, just like adjusting the valves.

I no longer play with large cube engines, though the 455 has a place of honor in the garage. I have switched to the 305, EFI and all that includes ( knock sensors too) because I just can't help trying something nobody else wants me too.

I wonder what would happen if I put the guts from a Rhoades lifter into my hydraulic rollers? Of course the knock sensor would have to go..............

All comments are made tongue in cheek. I never take myself too seriously, you shouldn't either.

 

good points, but...the car actually has great drivability and has knocked down 22mpg on the highway...i'm not trying to be too serious...but the fast 305 thing is something i've been working on for a few years now. the efi is to assist tunability and drivability/streetability with forced induction.

 

Pontiacivan, I just noticed that you recently joined us. Let me say "Welcome Aboard". Also, you DO NOT have to toss out the knock sensor. Even if it does pickup "false knocks" from the Rhoades' variable lifters, you can easily control the way the ECM reacts to the KS within the programming.

Also, on your "history lesson" regarding solid cams and mechanics. One important thing to note, IF a person cannot do the adjustments himself and needs to take it to a mechanic, he shouldn't probably own a vehicle with a solid cam. That is probably the biggest reason solid cams became "taboo" in the 60s. (That and with cheap gas, people opted for just bigger cubes with hydraulic cams for maintenance free operation). Unfortunately, too many people don't like to get their hands dirty. For them, they SHOULD use a hydraulic cam and not even think about a solid cam.

If a person enjoys tinkering on cars (which is probably everyone in this post), a solid cam is something they should consider (if it fits with their engine combo). Obviously, sticking a solid roller cam on a 305 but running the stock TPI system with stock heads would be a silly combo.

Your point about "You really don't know what a combo will do until it's built" has a lot of validity. But I would also add that an "experienced" enthusiatist (again probably everyone in this post), has a very good idea of what combinations should/will work and which are doomed.

Matt's 305 combo does not surprise me at all. I've said many times in other posts where people think the "bore/stroke" combo magically controls the rpms an engine can turn is wrong. Yes, the bore/stroke combo is a factor in how SAFELY an engine may handle the rpms due to the piston speed.

But, your cam, induction, heads & exhaust ultimately determines the rpm power range an engine will make. With a good solid cam, short runner induction system (whether carbed or EFI), with great flow heads and good exhaust, there is no reason you cannot make a powerful 305 that turns well over 7,000 rpm. Use good pistons (due to the piston speed) and there you go.

Even the DZ302 with its "magical" 4" bore/3" stroke will NOT rev freely is you stick the "peanut" cam from a 305, along with the 305's heads and TPI setup. The DZ302 will behave pretty much like a TPI 305. And no one here would need to build that combo to prove that.

Matt's 305 has proven what I have said many times to "less experienced" auto enthusiasts that it's the cam selection, heads, induction system and exhaust that ulitmately determines the power range of an engine...and the BEST way to make power out of any SBC is to rev the snot out of it.

Of course, doing the same thing (cam/heads/induction/exhaust) to more cubes will make even MORE power (and torque). But I am glad Matt has taken the time to prove that a 305 can make power (without having to use a power adder). I would say "that myth is also busted".

 

not sure if it makes a difference but i'm running a solid flat tappet camshaft...

thanks for the encouragement.

 

Yes, I noticed that in the beginning. The biggest advantage of a solid roller (over a solid flat tappet) is you can run more aggressive lobe profiles that tend to help broaden the powerband and give more bottom-end torque. Also, many solid roller cams permit a tighter lash which would reduce noise and may require less frequent adjustments.

 

I actually assumed ( forgive me ) that you cam was a solid. My bad. I know that Comp Cams solid rollers are so quiet that they won't trip the knock sensor, but they are out of my budget. The comment about removing my knock sensor was, of course humor. I'm not sure if I have the ***** to actually try and run the Rhoades guts in my rollers, even though the dimensions are correct. Somebody please egg me on and maybe I'll try it. Worst comes to pass everyone willl get a laugh if it fails miserably......or a new trick if it doesn't. I'm guessing Rhoades would sell them if it was possible though. I would like to hear more details on the engine in your Camaro, I'm wondering about idle vacuum and such. If this has been posted elswhere please let me know and I'll start from the begining learning about your car. Also, since this is actually the Alternative Port EFI Intake forum, does anyone know a jig manufacturer for drilling the injector holes at the correct angle? I have made and practiced with it on some old intakes but can't bring myself to do the real one yet.Thanks.

 

I know where you are coming from. I recently had a Super Victor converted by a company, Intake Elbows. I felt I was better off allowing someone qualified do it. Here is a link to the thread.

Dont know of a jig though.

 

OOPS! Forgot the link. Here it is.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...buissness.html

 

vacuum at a 750rpm idle is right at 14in/Hg...the cam i SUPER streetable...and again, it's a solid flat tappet, not a solid roller. do a search on the Organized Drag Racing and Autocross board for my name and you'll come up with ALL kinds of info on my car, OR, you can ask me anything and i'll try to give you as good of an answer as i can.

 

I'm switching from hyd roller to solid roller. My cam is a billet roller(specs in sig) so I'm simply going to re-use it. The new motor will be 380ci, 4.155 bore, 3.50 stroke. Same heads(mildly ported) and same cam, but with 1.6 shaft rockers(604/624 lift). I will eventually go back to efi with this combo, but dollar for dollar I'm gonna try the megasquirt system. - Matt, you might want to look into it also, basically the same typ of system as the FAST and Accel set-ips, WAY less money. I'm going to run a custom manifold.

My current combo turns 7200-7600 in low gear, every time I get on it, usually around 67-6800 in 2nd-4th. Hyd roller, but I'm over-sprung for spec on the lifters and after 3 sets of GM lifters, the cranes' seemed to have fixed the issue(up till parking the car for complete build) - I'm going to solid for the throttle response and the power. They do still have it over hyd cams, but they do require slightly more "maintenance".

 

That's just plain unreal. I can manage that spec in my 224/230 350... If I was across a card table from you, i'd be checking your sleeves..

 

Have you considered shaft rockers? They are a great companion to solid lifters

 

And not really needed until at least .575 lift with a solid roller.
Stock adjuster nuts are the biggest reason for the lash moving.
Solids can be very reliable. Just do some asking around on the old car forums. You'll find out which cams people like and have little problem with.
And which ones people don't.
Start looking at .200 lift numbers for all styles of cams.
Note that the SR has the biggest duration at .200 and a hyd the smallest.
Even the new fast hyd lobes are still slower to .200 than most of old solid lobes.
And HR's are the slowest off the seat of all of them IIRC.
For this reason, a solid always has a better idle than a comparable hyd.
The 238 @ .050 solid in the 305 mentioned above is a street lobe.
When run at the recommended lash, it's only about a 270 adv. dur cam and on a 114 lsa will be very tame at idle. To compare it to a hyd cam just subtract 10-12 degrees of duration.

I run a 243 @.050 & 110lsa solid in my car. It's very similar to the Crane CC280 if you know that brand. Harvey copied it from what I've heard from an old timer. It idles slightly better than my old 234 @.050 on a 112 Hyd.
It is about 4 degrees smaller in total duration, but it feels stronger every where. I can also tighten the lash up to get the 4 degrees back if I wanted to.
It's good for about 5k between lashing from what I've been told.

Problems reving with your HR- the new beehives from comp seem to work.-according to the mags-
I've also heard of guys getting BBC's HR's to run well over 6k (on the dyno) using 150-160 on the seat but only about 360 over the nose. This takes careful study of the spring specs. I think the Comp 930 is one of the dyno tested springs...Can't find my catalog at the moment. There is a Comp engine builder tech line too. It goes to the back. To the guys that actually know something. Not just quoting for some list.

 

Lash is one the reason why I mentioned shaft rockers. They hold lash considerably longer. A big reduction in friction on small blocks aswell because they have a pivot length of a big block.

Here's a good post on ls1tech that shows the benefits.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577801

Something to consider.

 

shaft rockers aren't exactly economical though...i've got a very nice set of comp pro-magnums that are nearly brand new and i'll keep them for a little while...yeah, i like i said, the car is super streetable.

 

Matt

I'm building a new engine and have been thinking about useing a solid cam but I'll be useing it mostly for driving it on the street probly below 6000 rpm so lately I've been thinking adout sticking with a hyd cam. Do you think it's worth it to use a soild cam in my case? Did you like yours alot better off the track also? Do you think what you liked better about it was cause it was a new cam? after reading this thread I'm back to wanting a solid cam. Also I dont think it makes a difference if you have a solid or hyd cam with EFI I wouldn't think anything of puting it in my car, its a 89 TPI. If you're trying to do it without spending alot of money one thing to consider is to get you hands on an TPI computer and then get a wiring harness from pianless. then try and buy a mini ram set up used somewhere. I don't know if that helps at all just an idea.

 

Matt

I'm building a new engine and have been thinking about useing a solid cam but I'll be useing it mostly for driving it on the street probly below 6000 rpm so lately I've been thinking adout sticking with a hyd cam. Do you think it's worth it to use a soild cam in my case? Did you like yours alot better off the track also? Do you think what you liked better about it was cause it was a new cam? after reading this thread I'm back to wanting a solid cam. Also I dont think it makes a difference if you have a solid or hyd cam with EFI I wouldn't think anything of puting it in my car, its a 89 TPI. If you're trying to do it without spending alot of money one thing to consider is to get you hands on an TPI computer and then get a wiring harness from pianless. then try and buy a mini ram set up used somewhere. I don't know if that helps at all just an idea.

 

How about a stud girdle? I adjust my valves once a year, (in the spring time.)

 

i'm telling you, this camshaft makes some unreal power and is super streetable...it's a bit of a dog below 3000rpm, but the car has a 4000stall converter in it so it's not really a problem, only a problem on the insterstate with the converter locked up. if i want to get around someone, i really need to unlock the converter

 

That'll work too. But the only purpose of shaft rockers is not because of lash. That's why I posted the link.

 

I would rewire the 700r4 and control the lockup with the ECM you plan to use. This will allow you to unlock the converter at X% TPS and put you right into your powerband, as you ease out of the gas it will lock again. The TCC setup in the ECM can either make your car/truck a joy to drive or a pain.

FWIW, Retrofit hydraulic roller lifters are much lighter than stock hydraulic roller lifters. I have no issues pushing them to 6,600 RPM on a 6,800 RPM rev limit with my 305. My cam is a little shorter duration than Matt's, I have a dual plane intake, and a 2 bbl TBI unit on it. Didn't stop it from spinning its way to a 423 FWHP @ 6,300 rpm engine dyno though.

 

you can't just toss around that "420 HP on a 305" bit unless you mention the supercharger helping out there..

(unless this is a different motor, in which case I am quite interested).

 

N/A, NO supercharger, NO N20

The Weiand is on my 350 TBI.

I have made mention to the 423 FWHP 312 in many post now, it is nothing new. It is the shortblock from my old van engine. 305 bored .040" over, calculated 10.4:1 compression, Forged crank, 4 bolt mains, X-rods, Hypereutetic flattop pistons with 4 valve reliefs, Total Seal rings, Balanced rotating assembly, New style Ported ZZ4 heads, Holley Projection intake P#300-49, with a 1" open center TBI spacer and stock bore 454 TBI unit (Extremefi VAFPR, 22 PSI @ WOT, 15 PSI @ idle @ 15 in/hg, 454 80# injectors), 10x3.5" flat based open element air filter with a SA192 equivalent K&N filter. It had 1 3/4" x 3.5" headers, dual 3" pipes, 3" X-pipe and dual 3" flowmaster 50 series delta flow mufflers on it. RBobs EBL running the show. Cam specs and part number below. I paid to have them re-worked for the extreme lift. I did the port work on them though. The intake is matched to the gasket as well. I put a standard volume pump in the engine, then went back to the HV while on the engine dyno, after the relief valve hung open in the stock volume pump, guess what 0 difference in HP. I changed the pump when I fitted the engine with a crank scrapper, windage tray, and pan baffle (Summit Kit). The final push from 415 FWHP to 423 was a LT1 electric emissions air pump setup to draw a vacuum on the crankcase of my 312 (about 5 in/hg). With the timing at 37*, 93 octane, and the wideband pointing at 12.9:1, the engine made peak HP of 423 @ 6,300. This combination is VERY timing sensitive.

Comp Xtreme EFI retrofit roller P# 280XFI-HR13
Advertised -280*/288* Duration
.050--------230*/236* Duration
Lift(1.6:1)--.576"/.570"
LSA---------113*
ICL---------106*

I have a sound clip of it here, ignore the pictures, they are just random from my files. Couldn't find a place to host a sound file only, had to be a video. Pictures+Sound clip=Video.

YouTube - 400 FWHP TBI 312

 

how many engines do you have?

ok, what's this wild 305 in right now? more specs on it?

the blown 350 is in the van right? similar HP specs on that?

 

The wild child 305 is on the pallet that the 350 came off of in the garage. It is going into a 1987 GMC Jimmy to replace the 4.3 that I swapped into it a while back.

The Blown 350 managed to shred the used V6 4L60E that was behind it in less than 2 weeks. I pulled the blower off, put the 3704 intake back on it, and put another stock V6 4L60E behind it. The blower is in the garage, it will be back on, but not until I do a 4L80E build and swap. I just don't feel the 4L60E is up to the massive torque of the blower on the 350. The 305 may make more HP, but it doesn't make anywhere near the torque of the blown 350. I should also mention after I pulled the intake, before installing the blower intake, I pulled the lame duck L05 cam out of it and put in my "TBI" cam profile that I have started to really like. This is what it sounds like now.

YouTube - 350 TBI startup

I am in the middle of changing jobs and really have not had time to mess with the 4L80E swap, much simpler to slap another 60E in it and pull the blower.

 

I agree with matt_p on the rockers. Not that they're needed, just that what he's saying is true. They free up a lot a hp by moving the pivot back, that's why I'm switching to them. CHP or Hot rod(can't remember now) did an article on jesel once. It was about shaft rockers and how they improve geometry drastically in a sbc, thus unlocking extra hp.

89pontiac400 - don't give up a hyd roller for a solid flat-tappet. There's no win there for a street car. - Now a solid roller...well, you have to be willing/able to do slightly more maintenance....

 

I am thinking about a solid roller. A little extra maintenance is ok since I'm switching to the mini ram. with the large tube runners on the TPI its impossible to get the valve covers off and I wouldn't do it if I was keeping that. I like the idea of a solid roller it just seems better to me, but I don't want to do it if its just a high RPM drag racing thing.

 

the converter is on a toggle switch in a panel above the radio, so it's not hard to reach over right now and unlock the converter...actually, i've been driving the car so long that i lock/unlock the converter when i'm driving like it's part of how i drive, just like using the turn signals and stuff..

 

you have to decide whether the car is going to be more street or more race. If it's more street and "daily driver" then I'd just stick with the hyd roller. If it's a week-end warrior and race, then enjoy the solid roller. Personal preference, maybe, but hey, I ran 11.72 on a hyd roller.
wow, you actually use signals? Down here I wasn't sure if they even came factory on new cars..... - anyhow, I know what you mean. I've had a lock-up switch for a long time in my car when it was auto, now in my blazer. You get so used-to it you do it w/o thinking. The funny part is I get out of my blazer and go somewhere in the burban and I reach for the switch....