AZ406TPI

iTrader: (2)

Ill start off by apologizing now for what I am sure is ANOTHER "what intake" thread. Ive been out of the game for a while now. Once I found out motorcycles are quicker than cars, my poor IROC has just been sitting. for like 10 years. probably more. *yeah, i still start it and let it run..but i cant tell u the last time it saw asphalt. anywho, ive been slowly restoring it. the interior is done minus putting the dash back in. the suspension is done minus new a-arms/struts. ect.

now to my question, I have a 406 SBC. Im trying to remember the specs but it has ported AFR 195 heads and forged internals. as far as the cam, at the time i was worried about emissions so it has some **** roller cam in it. I was planning on throwing some AFR 210 heads on it, but for wanting to turn this car into a fun street car with a rare pass down the strip, I dont think the $ to change out the heads would be worth the cost. *idk if it helps, but the last time it was dynos.... god only known when *15+ years ago maybe?? it made 401rwhp and 440rwtq. all on a crappy exhaust, really small cam, 22 or 24 lb injectors and a stock 305 ECU. So id image this engine is good for alot more power, if it can be tuned.

The cam I was torn between is the 280xfi and the 292 xfi. I like the 292 more, but i think to make it more "streetable" and tuneable, the 280 would be a better choice. *or maybe a custom grind like 236/242???

As far as intake, my biggest NEED, is a need a newer style "learning" ECU. I just am not going to even try to get this factory ECU to work with all this other stuff. it already has some aftermarket chip in there but that was for an older 350 i had in it. ever since i put the 406 in it, its just been letting it run rich cause it has no idea wtf to do. The intake on my car now is a TPI system, but its the "older" aftermarket stuff thats on it, ported SLP runners, big mouth intake, ect. great intake, but i feel its limiting the engine at the same time. I have a stealth ram sitting on the shelf now that i was going to swap to. BUT... in the 10+ years, FIRST has come out as well now as FiTechs UltraRam. both come with options for self learning ECU's. This is where i am torn. I really like the look of the TPI intake, but i feel the stealth(ultra ram) style would be "better" performance wise. IMO, and im sure im wrong, because of my 700r4 and 3.42 gears, i feel i have all the low/mid range power i need. If i keep the TPI style, that low end / mid range power is there still but it will "die" up top, where as the stealth ram style is more ment for mid/high range power. again, i could be wrong and im sure i am... thats what i get for being out of the game for a while.

OR... if there are any other options, im open to all options.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Imo the 292 xfi would be bettwr suited for more like afr 220 heads. For the 195’s i would lean toward the 280xfi as it would be a nice mild driver with solid performance up top. The 195’s arent gonna let it rev much over 6200-6400 anyway so no need to over cam it. It would be better match for the First tpi but the stealth ram or ultraram should out power it all day over 5500. A 400 goes thru alot of air. Its hard to put to much head/intake on them imo

need to get a decent exhaust on it tho to breath . 1 3/4 shorty or long tube preferred

if you dont wanf to learn to tune or cant find someone local then a self tuning efi isnt a bad way to go but I may recommend finding a local shop that tunes and sells efi products. Fast xfi, holley hp, etc. let them tune it to get it more dialed in than a basic self tuner setup. But from what i hear some of them self tuning deals are doing pretty decent. I just think spending the money upfront to have a detailed programmable system may benefit you in the long run, say if you want to make your car faster than bikes

AZ406TPI

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the reply.

I agree as far as the cam goes. IF i were to go to the bigger heads, then the 292 makes more sense. but since im staying with the 195, i feel the 280 would be better. again, maybe a custom grind just to get alittle more out of it, or just stick with a 280. either way, the cam goes to about 6k... so either the first gets ALMOST there, or the stealth/ultra goes just over. I want to say i have some kind of MSD kit that has "limiters" at around 6200 or 6400 rpms. not like a 400 is ment to spin much higher anyway. I just cant find any CFM on the FIRST setup. I know stealth rams are around 290-300 cfm.

Exhaust wise, I will be hoping a hook up happens and i can get a take-off of some SLP 1 7/8 shorties and a 4" exhaust system.

I personally just dont really have the time anymore to try and learn how to tune these older style ecu/proms. maybe if i was back in my 20s... but now... no way. lol yeah, a "custom" tune will be needed over a stock tune, as there isnt really anything stock about this engine. again, the stock ecu just isnt happy with me at all.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I'm with Orr. Keep the 195's and use something in the range of that 280 XFI. I ran it on a street 383 and it worked out very well and was pretty easy to tune. Would you be wanting to keep the stock ecm and harness and run the EBL or would you want to spend a little more and get something self tuning? I think with all the support for the EBL on these boards you'd be OK. I would stay away from FI tech and edelbrock systems that have the "tunes itself" capability. The results with one of those would be similar to if you kept your stock ecm and allowed it a 75% sway in fueling capabilities. MegaSquirt and Holley would be good choices but that's another $1200+ and you have to reconfigure a wire harness and deal with the VSS and transmission control if you have an Auto. Litchfield area huh? I'll probably be moving to the West side of Phoenix in the next 6-12 months.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

An aftermarket efi system that has control over fuel and ignition will have programmable rev limiters

is this a stock oem block 400? What internals are in it? If stock block and cast internals i agree dont go much over 6200 ish lol

AZ406TPI

iTrader: (2)

yeah, id rather just go with the self-tuning personally. i really just dont want to mess with the prom burning. I didnt know there was an issue with the FiTech stuff. i am just now learning about it and trying to find more info about it, but there really isnt much out there. I will admit, i like the price of FiTechs stuff over FIRST. but i guess either way, if i want "self learning" i will have to spend the $ reguardless.

well, im in Avondale now. Again, its been a while since ive been on TGO

AZ406TPI

iTrader: (2)

I forget where the block came out of, i just remember it has 4 bolt mains. Again, its been YEARS since i was all into this and would have to google myself to find any info i posted about it. The block was 30 overed to make it a 406. deck/honed, balance/blueprinted. all that. I know the internals are forged, but forget the brand names.

so a quick google and its at 10.5:1 compression and has ROSS forged pistons. If i find anything else out ill edit this post.

only other thing i found was; BBK 58MM T.B., TPIS long tube runners, TPIS big mouth intake and everything was ported.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ok you should be ok, 400 blocks can be iffy. 6500 should be ok but wouldnt do it too often. But you shouldn’t have too, that combo would be good in the 6000-6200 rpm range

my 400 with afr 195’s and a 233 cam was around 6000-6200 shift but was a turbo car

AZ406TPI

iTrader: (2)

Oh totally. I'm not trying to rev this engine like it's a 383. I just want to make sure all the normal intake/cam/heads match up as much as possible. Not really trying to get it to 6500 rpms. Lol.

AZ406TPI

iTrader: (2)

I may have to see if @BadSS could chime in since I see his name alot.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hes had the first and hsr. Both run pretty good and close to each other on his old setup. Yours will be fun either way but more powerful than his old combo. Hsr should be faster at the track geared and converter right imo. At the very least sellig off the old tpi will pay for alot of your new intake parts

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I was happy with the HSR and you can get it in a 1206 gasket. Be sure you have a small cap distributor though. Some members have voiced concern about air distribution for the rear cylinders but I don't think that would be an issue for you. You can also easily polish that enormous flat plenum to a mirror.

BadSS

Orr has it right as usual. Mine was a 355 with a th350 trans and 3.23 gears and the first and HSR ran about the same ETs. The first was a better fit for that combination but it really needs some porting on anything over 383 cubes. I’m talking a good bit of work for it to give anywhere close to 5800 rpm shift points on a 406.

If if you already have the HSR I think that’s the route I’d take with the smaller of the two cams. In fact something around a 230/236 on a 112 spread will still pull pretty good in the upper rpms and be pretty peppy off idle with something as small as a 2400 stall speed.

AZ406TPI

iTrader: (2)

Well all, I really appreciate the replies and insight.

I guess my main hang up is as much as I like the TPI "look" (aka FIRST intake), price wise the Ultra Ram seems to be the better choice when it comes down to price. Both come with the wiring and ecu. I personally would probably have to drop a few $100 more into them and have them ported alittle more. Ultra ram looks like it would be easier than the FIRST as well.

I believe both support 600hp and I'm sure with the 195s and 280xfi, I should be close. Still debating a 292 xfi or a custom grind mix of the 2. In the end the car is just going to be a fun driving car with maybe a random run at the strip or on the freeway . I'm also not really looking to go the HSR route, only because I'm not looking into learning how to program PROMs and would rather just go with the "better" ecu.

Does anyone know if the ultra ram kit comes with all the stuff needed to get going? Ie fuel rails, injectors, ect? And if so what size injectors they come with. I'm thinking I'll need something in the 42-46lb range.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You could get a 236/242 xfi based cam if you wanna stick with that lobe series and go abit bigger. I call that the 288xfi lol. I’d also leans towards a tighter 109-111 lsa lol but the self tune ecms may not like the overlap, the 113 can work. If you stick with the xfi stuff i would like to see afr’s upgrade spring on the heads. Should be the 8019 springs. 1.27” i think diam and 150-155 lbs seat pressure.

Not sure why comp doesnt fill the gaps between the 268, 280, and 292 cams.

AZ406TPI

iTrader: (2)

Do the springs that come with the comp cam kit not work on the afr heads?

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

I have the xfi292 in a miniram/383/afr 195 combo, paired up with a t56. I would not recommend the 292 with an auto in a street car. While the car isn't necessarily lacking for power or torque down low, a friend and I were both commenting that it probably wouldn't be enjoyable at all with an auto. As far as intakes go, you probably can't go wrong with any of your options. For an ecu, I went with the efi connection 24x setup, with a fitech ultimate LS ecu. The 'self learning' needs to be taken with a grain of salt regardless of the brand. You still need to be familiar with tuning and your cars needs to maximize their potential.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

The AFRs are 10 years old? Were they ported at the time? I think the best combo would be a miniram or stealth ram and reuse the 195 heads. I think 10 years ago they were right around the max cfm of 260 on the intake. 236/242 is a good cam for the bigger cube sbc. Best bet if your going to put an aftermarket efi system on either Fast or Holley. Tuners everywhere in the country. So install or tuning is available. I have been dealing with fastmanefi. Found him on Holleys forums and he does both systems and can email tunes or remote tune. Injectors I would use the brand associated with the system used. Holley 66lbs would be ok.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

They arent stiff enough to control the valves at high rpm
spring 26986 is like a stock ls6 spring. If they offered the beehive 26918 it may work ok for moderate rpm. It all depends on your valvetrain weight and which cam. A 260 xfi cam is just bit bigger than stock L98 cam, if you ran that cam it only would turn 5500 rpm max or say 4800 with tpi, then the lower pressure springs may workfine. If its the 280-292 xfi stuff that needs to go to 6500+ rpm, then you need alot more pressure. The 280 will float a typical 2.02-2.05 valve by 5700 with a double spring that is 120 lbs seat and 320 lbs open pressure. AFR offers a strong option double spring for serious hyd rollers

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I posted this 5 years ago and thought it could be helpful to the OP and others:

I own a set of the Pre-Eliminator AFR 195 heads and had always received conflicting information on the flownumbers so I finally had them put on a flow bench. I thought that I would post the results as they are just as impressive as the new Eliminators in a 195.

Intake runner: 195cc
Exhaust Runner: 64cc
Intake Port Gasket size: 1205
Exhaust Port Gasket size: 1405
Cylinder Bore: 4.030"
Intake Valve: 2.02"
Exhaust Valve: 1.60"
Combustion Chamber: 68cc
Angle Plugs


Port for cylinder 8 or 1 was tested. The new AFR Eliminators are in ()

Intake Exhaust
Lift CFM Flow CFM Flow
.1 95.7 (?) 57.1 (?)
.2 172.3 (146) 110.4 (119)
.3 228.4 (201) 168.4 (166)
.4 263.3 (274) 198.9 (197)
.5 278.8 (275) 210.1 (213)
.6 280.9 (280?) 217.1 (218)

So to be fair there are a few points to make:
1. A different flow bench was used
2. I have 2.02" valves with a 3 angle valve job and the new design has a 5 angle valve job with 2.05" valves. Had I used a five angle and 2.050 I would have had higher numbers.
3. I had him use a 4.030" bore since that is my bore. AFR used a 4.060" bore. Had I had him use a 4.060" I may have seen a little higher numbers.
4. I hand finished my cylinder heads. I did no port work I just blended things smooth, rounded a few things and matched the combustion chamber to a 4.030" bore.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

They dont make the Eliminators anymore. It's either street or competition race head. I think the numbers you quoted were from the street/ eliminator or whatever they call them now.. The race flows quite a bit more. Even 10 year old 195s should be good for a street 406.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The eliminators came out around 2006 i think? So 10 yrs old should be eliminators. I had a set in 08

the pre elim 195’s should only flow 260’s if advertising is correct

dabomb6608

iTrader: (3)

I didn't read every post, so if I missed anything important after the first post I apologize. But having a 406 with first intake and xfi 280 cam I will say this. I am glad I didn't go bigger on the cam. And some days I wish I had gone smaller...however EVERY time I mash the go-peddle I have a huge smile on my face.

It has been a bit of a chore to tune. Partly due to inexperience, partly due to the fact that this really isn't meant to be a "driver" cam. Above 2k rpm and this thing eats tires. Taking a cruise around town there is a bit of compromise needed in the tune to get it "comfortable". I've left the car on back burner many times since building it due to life and chasing my tail on the tune. I've come to realize there is only so much I can get away with using the combo I built. I also fully realize there is plenty of room for improvement on the tune and I am currently working on that. At the end of the day, its a big cam and will take a lot of hours to get right on the tune. Be prepared to either pay or learn..well actually both but substantially less money if you learn to do it yourself.

newbvetteguy

I like where you're going with this build.

You might want to look at the Mike Jones roller catalog, if you go with a slightly more aggressive ramp on the lobe you can end up with more low-end torque / cylinder pressure from a higher DCR with something like the EHR71360 lobe (276 deg advertised / 0.006" but still 230 deg @ 0.050"). The Comp QXI lobes are even a small step more aggressive. Both options will require top-notch springs and really good roller lifters, ESPECIALLY if going with 1.6 ratio rockers.

If you're going with aftermarket self-tuning EFI, like Cuisineart said, you might want a tighter LSA than 113.
If you have both a crank and cam position signal you can run sequential multiport and tune in a really nice idle.

Tri-Y headers will also help to prop up the low-end torque if the idle / off-idle performance is important; not sure what options exist for the ThirdGens, though.



I've got Profiler 195cc heads, a FIRST, Mike Jones HR70375 cam (280 advertised, 227 @ 0.050, 0.600" lift with 1.6RRs on a 110 LSA), Johnson short travel (slow bleed-down) lifters in my SBC 355 - Holley HP with 58x crank trigger and vortec cam sync. Then 36 lb Bosch 4 (LS-style) injectors with electrical "pig tail" adapters to the Holley HP harness. 2,800 stall 4L60e, 355 rear gears.

I'm FINALLY almost done with my build:
Adam

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That should be a nice build ^^^^

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

My experience has been that the idle stability comes from removing all of the slop associated with the mechanics of a distributor in favor of high resolution crank trigger. As a side note, the 4 or 8 flying magnet setups are not high resolution. Even on brand new engines with an MSD distributor I could watch the timing drift. I made the switch over to a crank trigger and even with a 110 LSA and 236 cam my idle only fluctuates around 50 rpm and the timing is dead steady. Also even though idle is easy to tune the auto tune on MS3 handles it easily at an 800 rpm set point. 113 would give a smoother idle but you'd probably have to go below mid 700 rpm to see any increased stability over a 110.

Adding a cam trigger for sequential fuel injection will save gas and not much else.

BadSS

That looks fantastic and it should run as good as it looks as well. Just a heads up - mock assemble the intake on the bench without any gaskets. I found that the screws provided were too long and bottomed out before fully tightening. Ken may be supplying shorter bolts or machining the holes deeper, but make sure - you don't want to end up with a vacuum leak. Also, the bolt holes going into the plenum go all the way through. I got some teflon washers from the hardware store and used under the bolts just as a precaution. Test fit anything you might be using in the oil sender's place on the back china wall - pretty sure I ended up grinding additional clearance off the intake in that area for the contraption I used back there.

AZ406TPI

iTrader: (2)

Well don't I feel like an *******... I never got any notifications of replies so i figures this topic died.

I wish I could say there has been some progress on this, but it's been more like 2 steps back. Long story short my starter went out and I needed a new battery. Got a new mini starter and battery and car still wont start. Replaced the neutral safety switch and ignition switch... still nothing. Saturday I'll take the starter back out and test it on the bench. If it works then I'll double check the wiring from the starter to remote solinoid. While doing all this, I noticed I never heard my fuel pump power up I guess I'll be doing my 4th gen tank swap sooner than later.


I really appreciate all the info and will look into that mike Jones stuff. Personally I PREFER the looks of the FIRST as I love the look of the tpi yet i know the tuning will be alittle more difficult.. BUT I know someone who can get me a killer price for the FI Tech...which I like, but not in love with the intake....but the tuning aspect seems better than the first. I'm also not a huge fan of all the proprietary parts with FITECH. So yeah, we will see... but I'm leaning to first even though the discount with fitech is VERY tempting and makes more sense (specially since the first is so dang $$$).

So that's where I'm at right now.

Bill Chase

I recently had my hands and a set of calipers on the fitech multiport sbc setup. It looks well built, be advised it is made for a 1204 gasket and while the flange/pan can be opened up to a 1205, the runners are very thin like the OEM tpi runners and there is nothing there to port.

Also, it is priced out of the stratosphere for what it is. As far as I know it is not sold without the ecm, so essentially you are buying worse than a stock lt1 intake that is tied to a proprietary ecu.

That may be ok depending on your goals, but if max output is the goal... look elsewhere, just my $.02

Bill Chase

Incorrect, you can buy the 195 street eliminator heads, or 195 competition eliminator heads. The current street eliminator heads flow better than the old 195 comp heads did.