Mods theres no general forum so i dont know where to post this


The post asking about the differences between 3rd and 4th gens and which one is better got me to thinking. How far can we really go in terms of performance, braking, handling and appearance?

Has anyone tried to add gusseting and enhance the structure of thees cars like they do the Japanese cars? Here's an example of what I'm talking about
Opera Performance Honda S2000 - Sport Compact Car Magazine

The 1992 SLP firehawk in its day was an exotic killer. boasting performance beyond what even the most expensive of cars had in the day. but by today's standards your average c6 corvette comes off the factory line faster than any ZR1 or Lamborghini of the times. just about any car now days pulls over 1.0g's with a set of sticky wide tires. Tires are the biggest factor in skidpad tests imo.

Pro-touring cars are getting more advanced and closing in on the gap in performance technology. with 700+hp 6 speed gearboxes and breaks that would have made Porsche Lamborghini or Ferrari drool over in the 80s. all so fitting 335/30 zr18 tires with mini tubing. Some even adding widebody kits that really work on the car (not those weird import looking ones. most are handmade to fit the style of the car)

So all in all are we falling behind the times? Will we see full chassis tuning instead of the standard eibach/koni/wonderbar/sfc/overly heavy cast 17s?

On a side note I've got the fenders off my car the motor out and have examined the unibody structure of my project. if anyone can help with advice in this area it would be appreciated. the opera car has me thinking about going one step further. im no chassis expert but surly something can be done to stiffen and lighten this chassis. At the same time I'm drawing multiple plans for widebody fender flares that follow the same lines as a stock trans am at the fender bulges. Widening the existing kit in a way that looks closer to stock than a monstrosity. Something around 3 inches+ on each side to fit the larger tires. but without experience of building a car like this i fear i may be biting off More than i can chew

The Mule

Big Red

Chris Mc'donalds corvette

 

How far this platform can go really depends on how much money you got to spend in my opinion. To some extent thats what it all comes down to for any platform. Even someone that does all their own work will still need funds to take a 3rd gen F-Body to the level of those other cars you've posted. The thing about the 3rd gen's is they are pretty cheap. So alot of the people that own 3rd gen's are on a budget and they just don't have the resources to build cars at that level. But that dosnt mean its not possible, just means it dosn't happen as often. I think another thing that plays a role here is how people go about building their cars. Alot of 3rd gen F-Body owners mod their car for the street. These other guys are basically building race cars and then making them as streetable as possible. Its like two different methodologies of building the car. There are people out there that have built their 3rd gen's into race cars, but not many of them try to drive the car on the street as well. Anything is possible with enough time and money, it just all depends on who has the resources and who has the drive to build a project like that.

 

Anything is possible I personally believe that a thrid gen is one of the best platforms money can buy, thier usually pretty cheap, nad have lots of potential most people diss them, because they dont understand them, and dont know how to mod them

 

Exactly. A TPI motor is a different animal than an LS1 or even an LT1. We have to mod our cars in a different way than other people. We get the most bang for buck by doing simple things like exhaust and re-working the TPI system, while 4th gen guys go out and get a lid and cold air intake and they shave off a few tenths of a second in the 1/4 mile. 4th gen guys also like to go out and put 3.73 gears or even 4.11's but we LOSE power with those gears. TPI falls flat on its face when it's stuck in the high RPM range, which is why we stick to 3.42 and below. We make all our power down low so we gotta keep the RPM's down in the power band.

We just have a different animal thats all...and as far as handing and suspension, we have the best platform to start on out of all 4th generations if you ask me.

 

It's true that newer cars are putting out some impressive performance numbers, but aside from the new carbon fiber laden z06, cars are getting heavier do to with safety and crash test regulations, and required options. The days of a 3300 pound RWD V8 are over. So realisticly, 3rd gens still have a weight and cost advantage, so you dont need as much power as the 4000 + pound chargers or challengers, or 3900 pound mustang gt's when your only 3300 pounds

 

Big breaks, big engines, 35 way power seats, strong transmissions, duel/quad climate controls are all adding a good bit of heft to those cars as well. People now days don't accept a car with manual windows or interiors without 500lbs of sound deadening. Start stripping those cars down and I'm sure there maybe only 150-200 lbs more than a striped third gen, but you get a greatly enhanced chassis, negating the need for subframe connectors and narrowing the gap even further.
A brand new 2006 mustang gt weighs in about 3450 from what i have been able to dig up. And the charger really shouldn't be considered a performance car anyhow. Sure they can be fast, but to me its the same as the high performance street SUV's, making a goliath have decent street manners compared to its lumbering heft. Its fun, its a real rwd American full size car, but its not a sports car, its a 4 door faimily car alternative to SUVs and minivans.

 

I've got an idea, i dont know if we have a overall performance collection of the thirdgens of this site, includeing skidpad, 1/4 mile, and 700ft slalom. but it would be nice to get an idea of a baseline to work from with some real life figures on todays tire technology.

Skidpad
take a peice of rope and a nice smooth peice of pavment somewhere you wont hurt yourself or anyone else. Cut it to 200ft and tie it to something stationary. use small rocks, chalk, cones. anything that wont damage your car if you hit one. get a buddy with a stopwatch and use this forumla (copyed from lateral-g.net)

lateral acceleration = (2.0 x pi) squared X radius/time squared, and to find the force measured in “g” the value of 1G is plugged in using 32.174 (1.0G in feet per second per second is 32.174). When those numbers are plugged in the result is 1.2270286, rounded down to 1.227 (I am not sure who decided it should round to 1.22 rather than 1.23).


slalom 420 ft (cones 70 ft apart) this one is a better judge of performance but not everyone has the cones or area to do it
420/time = ft per sec x 3600 / 5280 = mph


1/4 mile... if you dont know then dont ask lmao

Not asking anyone to run out and do this but if ya happen to have some time to kill and a few friends that wanna get numbers on there cars it might be fun to find out.

 

In a 4th gen, 75% of the engine isn't underneath the windshield, the windshield that costs about 3 times more than a thirdgen. It just makes it easier to work on the engine.

If you put the same engine/tranny combo from a 4th gen in a thirdgen, assuming both cars have similar options, the 3rd gen will weigh approx 100 lbs less.

3rd gens are supposed to handle better.

3rd gens can have 3rd gen wheels or 4th gen wheels. 4th gens can only have wheels with 4th gen spacing.

Engine swaps(3.4L V6, LTX, LSX) using 4th gen engines in thirdgens have been documented very well on this site.

C5 and C6 brakes can be installed on a thirdgen(on a 4th gen too, i would imagine)

Appearance-wise, you can do a lot more to a thirdgen. The doors and fenders are all metal which allows custom door handles, mirrors,etc. There are many aftermarket (and stock) hoods and spoilers available that look awesome on thirdgens. People have swapped 4th gen dashes and door panels into a thirdgen.

 

There are plenty of folks willing to build or buy hi-end pro touring '69 Camaros. There's no market for $50K-$100K 3rd gens.

With that said, a 3rd gen with springs/shocks and 1LE brakes will run circles around a vast majority of pro-touring 1st gens out there. The base 3rd gen platform has the benefit of 15-20 additional years of engineering.

 

The way cars are coming from the factory now days there isnt much room to improve upon pefromance take the C6 for example it comes from the factory with headers not plain manifolds. Yes they may be fast stock but there isnt much room to improve upon unless you plan to do Nitrous or forced induction. With 3rd gens or any Small block chevy really the results are almost limitless.

 

I somewhat agree with you. If you look at the handling of the performance third gens and the SS/WS6 fourth gens, the third gen will out handle the fourth. It's not an absolute that the later one is the better one.

As for the whole conversation, we can go really far with the third gen platform. Infact people rebuild the entire system using a full frame setup, some people start running tubular k-members and rack and pinion setups. The more you want a your car (anything for that matter) to be faster/better/sleeker/shiner/etc., you will need to spend more cash.

It's true that there isn't a market for $100k third gens, however, it shouldn't be what other people think, just proving what it can do at the track (street, circle, drag) and that the owner likes it.

 

Yes obviously a 25 year old design isnt going to have the enhanced chasis of newer cars; that i cant deny but assuming you strip out a newer car to just get within a couple hundred pounds of a stock fbody. That gap widens when you lighten the fbody as well. 500-600 pounds is alot of extra weight to lug around. Just look at the comparison of the new 4000 pound Mustang GT500 vs the C6.
Hint: Overweight bloated mustang loses to a car with much less power

For me thats what turns me away from wanting a newer RWD car, I dont want to have to strip a new car out so it will be within a couple hundred of an fbody, because weight = no fun

 

The gt500 seriously weighs that much? what the heck did they do to add that much weight? and i was talking about the mustang gt v8 5 speed base model is 3450 lbs thats about the same as a transam or z28 some people even claiming there cars bone stock weigh 3700 (in the weight reduction thread)

and about the K member and some of the other tubular parts. do you really gain anything besides weight reduction? and i thought thos were pretty much drag only peices. Someone commented about the turning radius greatly reduced useing it. though you might be able to fit larger tires up front that way.

So the Mcpherson strut suspension systems arent the major holdback for thes cars?

oh and Neil87Z28, thos cars have reengineered suspensions useing mostly c5 parts on them. something sadly we cant do with third gens.

 

the bigger wheels, the bigger stronger block, the supercharger and intercooling all add up

 

Great post...

I would like to believe our cars will hit big again someday.You just never know. If they do not oh well. Its awesome to see them on the road. Here 3rd gen Camaro's about 1 and every 200,000 on the road which is cool.

In addition, the reason that I bought mine because it was my favorite dream car when I was 16. These cars use to be race cars in the 80's. Whats cool is they sell just about everything imaginable for them from coil overs to everything. I guess you can do what ever you want with yours but like anything else it comes at a price.

You will always be able to get better technology for cheaper as in buying a new 350Z or GTO for $25k vs spending that in your 3rd gen. If you want to look like everyone else on the road.

 

Thirdgens are in my opinion also quite the cheapest way to get an american muscle car. And it's also right inbetween the good ole mechanicle things and the new electronics. I mean lets face it cars today are only computers on 4 wheels. If something really goes wrong it's mostly some circuite that just got fried.

Thirdgens are pretty cheap at the moment but I feel it will change also. Right now there is a big hype on reviving the 1st gen Style everywhere, that's why the prices on them have just sky rocketed.

I have the feeling the thirdgens will come back again in a bigger manner like the 1st gen.

 

just give me time....i'll have something for yall. it should be a real killer car. i got ideas in my head now that, although arent too far out, it still will make this car a top performer for sure! my goal is a very streetable 9 second car that will pull to 200mph and handle exceptionally well. but still have a nice interior and comforts. it will cost a good bit i'm sure,and will take some time. But the ideas have been layed out in my head and i just need time and money to do it all

 

to the original question i would just say that the 3rd gen platform can made to anything you like.
just like that S2K.
all you need is someone who knows what they are doing, and lots of money. 3rd gens are great because out of the box they offer pretty good handling, power and overall performance for a small price. these cars handle better than the 1st gens, so if someone can build a corner carver out of a 69, why not do it that to an 89 too?

 

thats the thing, some ppl on this site have made thirdgens into corner carvers, and some made them into drag strip kings, and others still have made protouring looks like Camaroguy and Kandiedz. i'm wanting to combine all 3

 

you can take a $3,000 car and put 50k into it... it's still a 3k car unless you find that right buyer. all of my cars are built for a specific purpose to what i want them to be and nothing more and no matter how hard you try you can not make a car that can do everything but it's fun to come close.

 

ding, ding, ding, ding - We have a winner. Good post Kandied. I could probably buildup a Chevy Citation into something sweet, but probably wouldn't find someone willing to pay me $50k for it.

The point of a project car is to build what you want, then go from there.

 

Of course you can strengthen the chassis!!!! it's always being done around here!

 

lol bull... you probly could sell that 3K car for 15 after you put in 50

 

Anyone puts any kind of money in these cars should understand that they will never get it back. I bet even these guys with the pro-touring 1st gens would only break even if they sold them. The big money only comes out for the perfect numbers matching cars.

I've got over 20K and climbing in mine and it is nothing more than a street licensed race car..

 

true, and the people that do invest gobs of money do understand that...it's all hobby for most of them.

like stated above, this platform is wonderful because of the amount of modifications possible and available, rendering each one of the million+ an individual

 

9 times outa 10 you will never get your money back on any car you build. Same reason a brand new car will never sell for as much as you buy it for. The second you own it it becomes used even if it hasent rolled off the assymbly line. soon as you put in a 1000hp engine or any suspension peice it becomes used. Barret Jakson has really skewed peoples ideas of what cars are worth nowdays. The only way a third gen will ever bring more than you put into it is if its got history, or in the case of dodge/plymoth if it has the hemi engine (hemi's are puling way to much money)


On another note. I've been reading suspension and chassis books for the last few weeks and they all really rag on Mc'pherson strut type suspensions, calling them a inferior design that you cant do much with. Yet a lot of great sports cars use it? Porchea uses it on there 911, Toyota on the MR2. and im sure there were lots of other sports cars with this design. So what is it thats so terrible about it?

 

A 3rd gen firebird Held a stock body land speed record so I think its safe to say we can go pretty damn far with the platform.

 

That pretty much sums up any reply you'll get.