100% agree with you on this! I feel the factory has now over stepped its bounds and has gotten into the realm of hotrodding and customizing with not just one model like they used to, which I feel is a bad thing
I do feel for you on trying to find something to make your new Camaro stand out. GM has done the work for you. My buddy with his 16 vert has plastered the Camaro logo everywhere to the point it is sickening....I know it it him coming down the road though.

 

Well we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

 

Sorry Bandit, my stand out part was for Black gloves, coffee has not kicked in yet!

 

I've come to terms with this. A few of us local hot rodders have formed an unlikely bond with some of the import guys at the local cars and coffee. Our instinct is to park with the horde of new "American" muscle guys, as it makes up a gross majority of the crowd. ....but you crack a joke about a 10mm socket and a dumb look just comes over their faces as they have no idea why it's funny. We found the older import guys all do their own work we actually park with them now. I still can't grasp why they like those cars, but it's only skin deep. They're every bit as much hot rodders as we are. I have found that who your "mechanic" is, is actually a thing with the new muscle crowd. They actually will sit around talking about who's mechanic did what, and who's tuner gained a few more horsepower than the other guys.

To be fair, one of my best friends just traded a 16 Mustang GT for a 17 Z06, so I do have friends in that crowd, LOL. His hands are so clean it's not even funny! -but he is a good dude, and a good friend. "he just ain't a hot rodder!" LOL

 

Again, sales of performance cars (from all manufacturers, not just GM) are down because the general public no longer has an interest in such cars. The manufacturers build---and promote/advertise---what the market demands. And these days, it's SUVs and trucks. Economics drives free market; it always has and always will.



........because the hobby of hot rodding is dying with my generation. Go to any large car show, and look at who owns 'built' hot rods; it's mostly going to be guys 50-60+ years of age.

Kids these days care about video games and computer stuff, not cars. A few youngsters I know---who are driving-age---don't even have any interest in getting a drivers license.





We---owners of performance cars---are in the extreme minority, and our numbers are dwindling every day. It's not because the Camaro is 'ugly' in some peoples' opinion, or that it costs a lot, or any other reason other than market demand has shifted. Hot rodding isn't dying because factories are building fast cars; if that were true, how can the muscle car era of the '60s---and the huge explosion of the performance aftermarket that it caused---be explained?

 

I did my best phone sketch of a modern Thirdgen sketch...

I just liked how the thirdgens stared at you like a wild animal and there was no bow tie...



Maybe even make it a Targa... Notch with a trunk...

Taillights would be a long, skinny Thirdgen throwback with the plate in the middle...

Ill tweak it when I have downtime... It’s fun to mess with..

 

I agree with most of that. It's the lazy instant gratification generation of today that isn't willing, or frankly doesn't even see the value in building their something themselves. That being said, a 500 HP car out of the factory sure makes it easy to not touch anything! -but I think it's more the complexity of the cars today, more so than the power levels.

 

Granted, modern cars are far more complex, and much more difficult to work on (thank 'manufacturability' for that), but where there's a will, there's a way. It's still nuts and bolts (and a $1000 scan tool). Shoot, dropping an LS along with a 6-speed manual and all the associated wiring/computer details and fabrication work into a 3rd gen isn't exactly easy either, but hordes of guys right here on this site have done so very successfully.



Just came back from a local car show today, and due to this thread, I paid particular attention to the ages of the people I saw there. It was a small show, with about 100 cars there (not a single 3rd gen, BTW). The vast majority of attendees were older (40s-up), and most owners of 'built' cars (not new Corvettes, Camaros, Mustangs, or Mopars) were in their 50s-60s. There were a couple dozen hot-rodded Tri-Fives there, and not one of the owners looked to be younger than 60.

I saw just one kid in his early 20s, and no teens at all, not even one.

 

It's not just hot rodding or car modding, but the younger generation just isn't that into cars today.

Sad times...

 

Nowadays you get satisfaction from instant gratification. What gets lost nowadays is that satisfaction feeling you get from doing it yourself, maybe even some pride.. I still find value in this.
That Rush song just keeps playing over and over in my head.

 

I think you may be on to something here! If GM rejects it you find a place at Hot Wheels!

 

see a lot of vette in this

 

tbh some are a thousand times more into cars,check out hoonigan,cleetus mcfarland(working on a big block 3rd gen right now),
chrisfix,finnagin,bad obssesion motorsports,itsjustasix,deathwish hylux.there is a massive car community rivaling the old
school hot rodders.there are new traditional hot rodders,rat rodders,drive them however the hell they look now guys,
and new modern efi hot rodders AND THEY GET ALONG..........1320 videos is chock full of insane cars going really quick

these young guys are taking stock ls engines(or just about anything literally) and milking 1000-1500 horsepower out of them.
what im seeing is many of them do not embrace the new cars though,there are some but its a decent spread of hot rodders.

we gotta bury the hatchet though,we all don't think the same ,like the same things but that's what makes us a diverse bunch,ill throw it out "im sorry"

 

if they could pinch the front end down about 8-10 inches,shorten up the side profile and add some actual style ,this would sell like hot cakes

 

Well the C4 and the Thirdgen has similar profiles and very similar looking engines..

And now that the vette is mid engine maybe the Camaro should take the front engine rear drive spot..

The last show I went to I talked to a 19 year old kid and his dad that are looking everywhere for the perfect IROC... Another kid in his 20s was talking to me for almost an hour about it...

I find the kids lean more towards some of the 80s/90s cars... the tuner cars and imports and they seem to gravitate towards the Tesla’s quite a bit... They take pics with the IROC, the Supras, the MR2s, They swarm the Delorean and the Tesla but they kinda skip over the 70 Chevelles, Fastback Mustangs, GTOs, 67 Camaros, etc..

Those old muscle cars are the ones that win all the awards though.. The guys running the shows lean towards those cars..

The older the cars are at the shows, the less young people..

The Cars and Coffee I go to with over 1000 cars draws a lot of young people at the crack of dawn on a Sunday because they get to bring their weird cars and be a part of a huge mixed community and not just a bunch of old muscle cars they are told they are supposed to like.. Their are car clubs that are trying to rally against the stuffy elitism at the shows.. Some car shows are not inclusive to people interested in cars outside the usual old standards..

 

i agree,i love some of the later(and even early) c4 vettes.yep,camaro needs to pick up the torch and run with it.they need a good,desirable design like a combination of the best features of all years without being excessively busy.slab sides look like ****,we don't want them.

 

That's exactly what I'm experiencing with mine as far as the sound when it shifts at full throttle. Sounds like the sound effects of a professional race car or a video game. It's really hard to describe but its intoxicating

 

And when my plates come in that's coming off

 

All opinion in everything you said. You cant say they look the same then say it cant compete with its competitors. The Challenger is much heavier and much bigger. They dont feel like a high performance car when sitting behind the wheel. I test drove two of them over the years. It's what turned me away each time.

Why are yall so hung up on weight anyways? These cars turn excellent times at every type of track they race at. So who cares what the scale says.

 

The car feels like a toy as in it feels like a race car. The paddle shifters, 10 gears, the way it pulls and sounds on each gear makes it feel like a toy. The IROC off the show room felt like a cruiser... not like a circuit car. If it did to anyone, I can only imagine what they think driving a new turbo 4 cycle Mustang

 

That is M E S S E D _ UP !

 

Oh? Imagine that. It's what I said about 5 or so responses back. It has NOTHING to do with styling. But everyone feel free to continue brainwashing yourselves into Camaro hate

 

The 1st gens had factory or dealer options back then for long tube headers if my memory serves me correctly. Competition and engineering have made these cars race track ready off the assembly line. I don't have a issue with this at all. There was a ZL1 with less than 5k miles at the dealership when we bought the 4Runner 5 weeks ago. Apparently the car was so fast for the owner it scared him. With mine being a 2SS and not a ZL1, i could see how others would feel about a new ZL1 and its power. I cant get enough hp/tq. But the general public cant handle the new high performance cars at wide open throttle. Super charger or not. V6 Camaros now put up numbers that would have wow'd people 20 years ago. It's crazy, it's also a good time to be a horse power loving fan

 

Generation measurements:
1st Gen
184.6L
72.5W
51.0T

2nd Gen (early)
188.0L
74.4W
50.1T

3rd Gen
187.8L
72.1W
49.8T

4th Gen (early)
193.2L
74.1W
51.3T

5th Gen
190.4L
75.5W
54.2T

6th Gen
188.3L
74.7W
53.1T

 

Shortest car in length: 1st gen
Longest car in length: 4th gen

Smallest car in width: 3rd gen
Biggest car in width: 5th gen

Shortest car in height: 3rd gen
Tallest car in height: 5th gen

So it looks like GM actually did a good job with their latest Camaro. It's not overly small or big as far as measurement goes. It's in the middle of every department.

 

It is weird.

Go to any of the technical forums and people will ooooh and aaaawh over your new car. You've just got to be a little careful though because eventually they'll start talking about how they can part it out to use in their own 3rd gens.

 

Or theres the fact that they shared countless parts and over all design

They absolutely look similar. It was a huge complaint back when both were offered. They refused to have 2 distinctly different vehicles

 

New cars are tall and husky. They don't look overly large from the driver seat of my crew cab truck, but they look like giants from the driver seat of a lowered 3rd gen. And some of them really are giants.

Although, I once towed home my friend's '16 Mustang and I was really surprised how small it was on my trailer. It didn't have near the overhang front and rear of my Firebird. I really liked it honestly!

 

Camaro needs several things. The top of the list is an economy that supports owning a muscle car. If it was announced that fuel prices would start declining slowly and wouldnt stop declining for at least 10 years. Sales would pick up substantially.

Next... GM needs to design a platform for the Camaro instead of trying to find an existing platform (Cadillac) to make the car production ready But, that would increase the price of the car. It's a double edge sword.

Ironically, GM answered so many complaints when they brought the Camaro back. When the 4th gen was in production, all I heard was "these cars dont have the options in them like mustang does" "what comes standard on the mustang you pay extra on a Camaro" "ford went retro with their mustang, chevy never will"

There are more options today for Camaro than any other time in its history. 4 cylinder turbo, 300+ hp V6, and now 3 different levels to getting a Camaro with a V8. That's not counting the ZL1. They are now offering a V8 in the 1LT model.

People wanted the Camaro to have performance options back then. Now I'm reading that the Camaro comes with too many options so you cant upgrade its performance lol.

Wow!

It's all about the economy. Mark my words. High performance SUVs and trucks are the future

 

Yep, this is a generational issue though. Not a Camaro specific issue. Look at every decade of automobiles and you see trends. The 50's were huge cars with lots of chrome. Early 60's performance cars were huge like the 50's. See the SS Impala, G.T.O, Galaxy, Farlane etc.. the late 60's they got smaller and aerodynamically changed. The 66-69 muscle cars all looked very similar, Camaro, Firebird, 69 GTO, Mustang, chevelle etc

The 70's went bigger and brought in plastics. The 80s went even smaller and were almost primarily plastic.

My wife is astonished that I can identify just about any car and come within 2 or 3 years of the said model. I explained to her that every decade or generation had its own unique look. All automakers sorta piggyback off each other, trying to appease the general market.

This talk about today's cars all look the same. Go compare a 1932 ford coupe to a 32 Chevy coupe. Or a 48 Chevy pickup to a 48 Ford pickup.

 

1975 chevy and ford cars

 

1950 chevy and ford

 

36 Chevy
32 Ford
32 Chevy

 

Well, they live in a different world. They probably bought a new car so they DON'T have to work on it. The cars are still reliable, and maybe even under warranty. And the bones of the car are strong enough that they tend not to need upgrades. So the only thing left to do is basic bolt-on's and a tune. And depending where you live, you can't even do much of that because of emissions laws.

Whereas if you have a 3rd gen, the first thing you do is gut the car of everything mechanical and start over from scratch. You are ALL IN at that point! You either get busy, or you ain't ever driving that car again. Places like Thirdgen.org are full of talented DIY people, because we have to be to keep our old junk on the road!

 

its a ****ing behemoth,its ugly

 

[QUOTE=blackgloves;

It's all about the economy. Mark my words. High performance SUVs and trucks are the future[/QUOTE]


It is here now, we don't have to wait. I saw one of the new "performance" mimi vans the other day and I looked under the car and the damn thing looked like it had vette suspension. I think it was the new Pacifica. I am sure it has performance to match. The design, well it looks as sporty as everything else out there.

When Chevy came out with the Z28 for track a track car it had some performance options but really the suspension was almost the same. Stamped steel and leaf springs. These newer vehicles even down to the base models have all the goodies nowadays. My 95 Monte Carlo had all stamped steel suspension. My son's Chevy Cruze has all cast aluminum suspension parts. Just new technology going into every vehicle and that surely was not the case back then.

You are right that through the years car design followed what was hot until IMHO came along the corvette. I feel that all those cars that looked the same, Ford's and Chevy's alike, the Vette broke this model of car designing.Before then just like the photos you posted, they had to hotrod basically family cars. Even the Chyrslers of the 60's and early 70's were family cars.Richard Petty's Super Bird comes to mind. I think the corvette was the 1st to put design and performance together. The Europeans had been doing this long before us here. I could be wrong and I am sure someone will disagree so please let me know. The style of the vette along with it having some designed performance from the factory. This started the trend which the pony car was born. The original Camaro and Mustang design looked like nothing else nor did they look the same.This trend continued all the way through the 5th gen. It stopped with the 6th gen. Not enough changes to warrant a new gen IMHO.

We are here because we all are Camaro people in one way or the other. The new Camaros are leaps and bounds above the 82-92, just not the design of the 6th gen. I think they just made it look like all the others just like your pics show. This to me is what sets the 3rd gen apart, there was nothing that looked like it. Well I have heard they look like a Ferarri design....maybe?.

 

My co worker has a 18' GT. He lowered it and put all those bolt on go fast goodies, he bought the good stuff. I hate to admit it but I liked it better than the Camaro. It is hard to see out of it also but not as bad as the Camaro. It felt "lighter" to drive than the Camaro. The car flat out flies, turns and stops on a dime. He used Kooks headers and a loud raspy Borla system that I can't stand the sound but in my opinion after driving both and looking at both, this Camaro guy likes the stang. Damn I can't believe I just said that!

 

The 80s are long past. I feel like if you went back in time, your opinion would change some. I think the 3rd gen crowd thinks the 3rd gen camaro was super unique in design because it was so different from its rival (mustang) I posted a bunch of sports cars from the 80s and you can see similarities with all of them. The public saw the Camaro and Firebird back then as "nearly the exact same thing". Which they were right. Windshield angle, overall dimensions, similar tail light design, door design/size, hatch back, and the list goes on. I felt like the Camaro and Mustang split into two different categories with design. Lots of cars looked like the Mustang design. Lots of cars had the basic design of the Camaro. The camaro with it's long nose, hatch back, and sleekness.

 

I will own an F40 some day... some day...

 

In fairness you had to reach for some of those 80s cars... And some came later and were probably seeing the attraction the IROCs and RSs were having and copied the style... In 1985 no one had the styling the IROC had... Most cars still had wire hubcaps and dated 70s trim on a boxy 80s design...

I saw one Porsche 944 growing up and I absolutely loved it... It was for sale and I wanted to buy it.. The IROC still won out though.. I would never have confused the two seeing them in person even as a 10 year old who didn’t even know an IROC was a Camaro when I first saw it..

I had friends that had Dodge Daytona’s and none that looked like that one... Dodge did take IROC from Chevy and probably thought it would do something for them... The IROC Z had the look and turned the heads... Still does... The Daytona IROC was a big nothing...

You posted a bunch of red sports cars, but many were a stretch..

Eclipse? No way
Reatta? Nope
Mustang? Hell no.. square lights is about it..
Fiero??? No one ever mistook a Fiero for an IROC
Supra? Absolutely not..

Even back in the 80s/90s you could confuse a Vette IROC and Firebird from the side mostly...

When the IROC came out in 1985 it looked waaaay closer to modern cars than everything else at the time.. It probably got similar attention to a Corvette ZR1 in a showroom now.. It probably drew people right over to it amongst the bland 80s hubcap cars.

I would have loved to see a 1985 showroom.. The IROC Z just wouldn’t fit in at all...

I also think maybe being a “cruiser” as you stated before is a good thing now... Most average people aren’t going to the track and I am afraid enough to floor my 305 with a cop around every corner.. Maybe the next Camaro (If there is one) should turn heads and be fun to cruise.. Maybe make it tuneable like the new Supra (Toyota actually made the car so that people can install aftermarket performance parts... They could have done it themselves but want to pay tribute to the tuner culture).,.

The Thirdgens stood out to people that weren’t even car people.. People in my family noticed them and a couple bought them.. That was a stretch for these people that normally don’t care what they drive... People felt like they were getting a vette for a good price.. Many people preferred the thirdgens to the Corvette so all the better..

A chevy showroom now every car has the same styling and big black wheels.. They need to set the Camaro apart again...

I like the new Camaro but it doesn’t look like anything common people want to drive... Third gens had more non car people buying them... Those 80s/90s RS Camaros were everywhere..

1985 Chevy Cars:

 

Here’s a stock 85 944 and a stock IROC...





I would also argue the Porsche was ahead of it’s time too and the interior was far ahead in style and quality compared to American cars in the 80s..

 

Wow. My Dad bought an identical Porsche wrecked at auction and repaired and repainted it. He decided to give it to me for my first car but my mom threw a donkey fit suspecting i would get killed in it so he sold it and I got a Ford Ranger. Year and a half or so later he let me trade it for a red 87 Formula and I've been been hooked on Third gens ever since.

 

Always had a soft spot for 944s

https://carbuzz.com/news/chevy-camar...rbuzz_facebook

 

Thanks for posting this car Joe! This was the car my father owned and I learned how to drive with. When I was 15 my parents would go gambling and me and my friends would "borrow" this car. It was white with red velour Int. What good times and this just brought back good memories of my dad!! I did finally get caught as dad clocked the miles one time.

Great post BTW with spelling out the obvious with the 80's cars. It is funny you posted that pick of the Porsche..I was looking at one of those when I bought the Z. I was frustrated in finding a good condition Z and there was one of these in nice shape close by. I always loved that Porsche style and if I remember correctly these cars were affordable but still had that Porsche pedigree, I really wanted a third gen so I passed on the 944 but it was in great shape with reasonably low mileage.

 

FWIW, I would LOVE a 2 door G body Malibu from the early 80s!

 

Those were cool cars.. haven’t seen one in decades..

I even liked the regular Monte Carlos (non-SS).. It was cool how plain looking they were and how comfortable they were to drive.. but they were V8 rwd and could do burn outs and donuts..

Yeah Vinny, my grandfather had a light green early 80s Caprice with green vinyl interior. It was awesome.. After that he bought a brand new red S10 pickup with no options (4cyl, crank windows, stick shift, 2wd, plastic floors, no A/C, etc). He had that S10 until he passed away 25 years later. He didn’t believe in spending money on cars... knew how to fix them though (he was an engineer). When I got my first IROC back in 1992/1993 he told me I would get pulled over every day in that thing and I should have bought a Honda. He was sort of right. My aunt had bought a brand new Camaro SC around 1986 and sold it after a couple years because she kept getting pulled over in it. She actually loved the car otherwise. Man, they were right about attracting cops back then.

 

I never much cared for the "classic" Porsche 911 styling. (Heretic, I know.) But I always liked that 944 pictured above. And the 928.

Regarding the discussion about modern design and 3rd gens. I do think that the 3rd gen cars looked very modern in their day, compared to what else what out there. (And in my opinion, their design has aged incredibly well, better than 95% of cars of a similar vintage.) There were expensive cars like Porsches and Ferraris that looked very modern. But compared to the everyday cars of the time, the 3rd gens really did have a modern look. Maybe people here who weren't around in 1982 can't quite appreciate that. There was absolutely a "wow" factor the first time that you saw a 1982 Camaro or Firebird. This was true vs. mainstream cars of the day like a Caprice or Cressida, Cutlass Supreme or LTD, but also against competitors like the really old Corvette of the time, and the Mustang or 280ZX.

I'm not suggesting that 3rd gens were responsible for advances in the auto world. They just came around at the right time, when certain manufacturing advances were reflected in car design. That big curved rear windshield was a challenge to manufacture. These cars were more aerodynamic than just about anything on the road and that was due partly to the vision of the designers, but also to the ability of Fisher Body to pull off mass production of an aerodynamic design. These sort of things would have happened even if there never was a 3rd gen, it was just a fortunate marriage of styling vision and manufacturing ability. But the cars really did stand point in their day.

Blackgloves posted a bunch of pictures that he thinks disprove the notion that 3rd gens were modern compared to other cars. i think a couple of his examples actually help to prove the point that 3rd gens were more modern in appearance. The early Foxstang looks ancient next to a comparable-year 3rd gen. That Supra introduced in 1981 was a nice car, but it doesn't have the modern flow of a 3rd gen. The others he posted I agree were modern looking cars. BUT, they came later. Not much later in some cases, but later. And you know how quickly something successful is copied in the auto world. As soon as a company launches something successful, competitors imitate it pretty much overnight. The others were the Dodge Daytona, introduced in 1984 and got nicer over time, but the original look was still pretty '70s. The Fiero 1984, Reatta, 1988, C4 Vette, 1984 all modern looking designs, but all introduced a bit later and from the same company and styling studio, so no surprise there. And the first Eclipse didn't come around until about 1990.

For the record, I'm not a hater of anything post-3rd gen. I owned a 4th gen and a 5th. I do like the 6th gen and considered buying one. I like it, I just don't like it enough to buy it. Maybe it's partly a function of getting older. I bought a car that rides the same chassis, an ATS Coupe. Great car, terrific handling. No regrets.

 

I'll throw in my 2 cents here from a perspective probably 25 years younger than the majority of the guys in this discussion (sorry)

The passion for cars isn't dead, not even remotely. Look at the amount of supped up Honda's and clapped out F150's you see rolling around with a km high lift and 40in wheels. Those vehicles look like garbage, and I doubt a soul on this forum has any interest in them, but my point is that the drivers LOVE them. If you go up to one of those guys and compliment their car, regardless of how it actually looks, I guarantee they'll be willing to put whatever they're in the middle of on hold just to shoot the s*** with you. It's the passion. The issue these days is that our North American economy, both in the US and here in Canada, makes it damn near impossible for your average young guy to get their hands on anything newer that's genuinely cool, unless they live at home bill free. When Third Gen's came out, living costs were substantially lower, insurance rates were WAY lower, and the cost of a high optioned performance car was also way less. Why do you think there are so many V6 and turbo 4 cyl "muscle cars" rolling around now driven by younger people? It certainly isn't because they wouldn't rather an SS or a 5.0, it's because it's all that they can afford. In Canadian dollars, a brand new SS with reasonable equipment will run you mid 50's - 60k. That's almost a 1200 / month finance payment. Consider that the average young person only brings in around 1500 per month after tax, that's an un-achievable vehicle when you factor in your 5-600 / month for insurance (around here at least). I'm not saying this is a bang on example in every state and every other country, but it's a pretty general issue. Buy a new muscle car or have something other than sleep and tap water for dinner?

For the aging of the cars, I'm a big fan of a 4th Gen WS6, or an SS with 5 spoke chrome T/A wheels. For the newer gens, are you guys really telling me that a 2014 ish Z/28 doesn't get the blood flowing quickly to your south pole? Generally, I'm not a fan of the newer Camaro's except for a few exceptions. It's the same story with Third Gen's though. Nobody looked at an iron duke Camaro and thought it was the meanest looking machine ever built. They can be made to look cool, like anything else, but out of the gate they're nothing special. They weren't revolutionary, they weren't this incredibly beautiful design, they weren't anything other than a run of the mill 80's car. (No offence to the owners, I'm referring to when they were new). An IROC is what shocked people and what drew the love. It's the same now though. Nobody cares about a base model Camaro or Mustang, but they certainly do when you tell them that they'll be able to buy a dual clutch GT500 that has almost 800hp. It's the exact same thing, just 30 years in the future.

 

Oh ya, just a lil' reference pic

 

I can only tell that car isn't a Charger because it has 2 doors. I like the performance the newer Camaros have but I'm sorry they are ugly and you cant see $h!t out of them