JimRockford

I pulled up to a light alongside a new Camaro today and just sat there looking at this slab sided,clunky suv sized looking thing next to me and had to shake my head wondering why anyone would buy one and why the designers at GM would even come up with something that looks like a ghetto tonka toy.

I couldn’t find one thing about it I liked. For starters the proportions are terrible.the car has giant,slab sided doors and body panels that create an ungainly wall like appearance. they made the side windows very small and narrow in a failed attempt to make the car look “lower” and more sporty and then in keeping with the stupid “huge rim” trend,they have the giant ghetto wheels which further enhance the bloated appearance.

there was another member here,whose name I can’t recall,who had commented that they looked like a whale on wheels,and I have to say I agree. I don’t care how fast something is if it’s ugly. In my opinion they third generation camaros and trans ams look like Ferraris compared to these new ghetto-retro attempt camaros.

The Camaro isn’t the only one that suffers from this bloated design issue,those new dodge challengers and mustangs all have this thick,heavy look. The challenger being the worst of the two.

It’s weird pulling up to one of those massive things and having to look up to see the driver. Sadly I don’t see this trend reversing itself any time soon.

I just don’t understand the appeal. I personally also don’t like the whole lazy “retro” remake car thing anyway,where they take something cool and beautiful and dumb it down for today’s world. It’s like taking a rattle can to a Rembrandt.

I love the original Challenger,Camaros,Firebirds,etc and think instead of the auto makers doing these retro remakes they should try coming up with something original,like the third gens were in their time.

there used to be a time when automakers created works of art and had products that would inspire desire and drive people into the showroom. Those cars are all now rightly regarded as classics. If this is the best the designers can do today it’s truly pathetic.

anyone else agree?

ironwill

I think the new Camaro is one of the best-looking cars currently on the road today. Additionally, the underside of a ZL1 is a sight to behold, and I'd have one sitting next to my '86 IROC if I had garage space.


As with all objects, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I also think the '63 to '67 Corvette is the most timeless, beautiful car ever designed (R.I.P. Larry Shinoda), and a '32 Ford 3-window chopped-top highboy ain't bad either.

YMMV

CKone

iTrader: (2)

Which is why the Camaro is going to meet its demise, for a second time

I kinda dug the 5th gen when it first came out, but being a Pontiac guy was ultimately longing for a Firebird/Trans Am of the same nature. The newer ones, yeah. They have gotten outta hand if you ask me. Probably run fantastic I’m sure but just gaudy looking. Somewhat feel the same about the others but top of my list would be the Challenger as I feel it is the best looking of all three. Slap a Hellcat Demon or Redeye in front of me now we’re talking!

JimRockford

I agree with you about the old corvettes completely. I personally like the 57- early 60’s cars best,then in about 66-67 the cars got good looking again until about 72. The second gen trans ams are nice. Didn’t like the Camaro as much.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The camaro went down hill after the 69 rs/ss imo lol then the 91-92 z28 is my second favorite then yes downhill after that again
the firebird/trans am peaked at 99-02 with the ws6 and firehawks

JimRockford

Yeah,I heard that they were doing away with the Camaro too in 2023 because the sales are terrible. I too have always preferred the Pontiac over the Chevy f bodies. This is the one and only Camaro (1990) I’ve ever owned and I only have it because I got it cheap and it was a one owner low mile car. I’ve always owned firebirds/trans ams.

I do like the original Challenger from the 70’s and have had many old mopars. I don’t like the proportions of the new ones though. But I would agree it’s better in execution than the new Camaro

T.L.

Performance-wise, the new Camaros are awesome. Appearance-wise, thirdgens look way better to me. The 4th-gens are mechanically better too, but the thirdgen looks better to me..

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I saw a picture of a member's thihrdgen Formula next to a newer Challenger and it was eye opening how much bigger the Challenger was. These newer sports cars really have become bloated. The design team at GM have really killed the Camaro but many other of their cars I have the same criticism of, they look awful. Like a ghetto transformer. I'm with Orr that after the first gen Camaro the Thirdgens look the best. I'm not big into the looks of the second or fourthgen and especially not the newer Camaros.

JimRockford

Agreed. The forth generation camaros looked like larger versions of the geo storm. The trans ams while slightly better we’re still a giant let down compared to the previous generation. I would never own a fourth gen car. The interiors are cluttered and claustrophobic too,compared to the much more well thought out and sporty looks of the third gen cars. Everything after the third gen was a step backwards styling wise.

Personally I hate new cars. Won’t own one ever. The third gens are the last new cars I cared about. The whole design philosophy has changed,people have changed. Cars today are just plastic toys. They get you from one place to the other but they don’t have a soul. They are not works of art and don’t inspire desire or passion anymore

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

IMO the Firebird/TAs looked good every year, although some better than others. The Third Gen Camaros started looking a bit goofy in 91-92 with the stupid wing they put on the Z28s. Fourth Gen Camaros were horrid especially after 97 when they turned into a catfish the last few years.. 98-02. The fifth and sixth gen ( which I cant tell apart) does not arouse me either on the looks part, the powertrain is impressive though as was the LT1 and LS1 platform I will admit.

vinny R

Here's your Apples to Apples bulbouson!

TireSmokin'

The best T/A for appearance and performance, was the 98-02 WS6 6 speed. Absolutely beautiful design.
Unfortunately, GM gave Pontiac the ax, along with the other lines. I don't believe a fifth gen T/A would've done any better than the Camaro in sales anyway.
We also have seven of these in our storage building.

WildCard600

Someone on another forum described the new Camaro as "driving a Normandy bunker". Acquaintance of mine had one and I have to agree. Fast car, but the visibility sucks and I don't like the bloated style. Add in the fact that once you check all the performance boxes you are within spitting distance of a new Corvette price wise. I would rather have the Vette. No wonder they are not selling.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

GM can't retro.

The 4th gen was just an update of the 3rd, and they mostly just made it harder to see out of, more cluttered, and ridiculous 'modern' styling. The 5th gen wasn't a Camaro, it was a 'we spent all this money and time kicking around this GTO concept car, we can't just throw away all that work. I know! Let's restyle it and call it a new CAMARO! <thunderous applause>' It doesn't matter, it was ugly and stupid as a GTO, it's ugly and stupid as a sorta but not really 'retro' Camaro. The same team of guys that designed the 4th gen redesign seem to be behind the 5th gen, hey let's make a car that's even harder to see out of.

I stopped caring about the late model Camaro when they got ugly and the pricetag for anything cool was astronomical. Here we are 20 years later and GM still hasn't figured out the Camaro is supposed to be an affordable car with some performance. But no, we've gotta have versions no one wants, or versions that are trying to compete with the Corvette, and the Corvette is off trying to be an exotic, and Big Cletus' work truck now costs more than a house and has a 10 year financing plan.

People are dumb.

ksr

I think it has gone downhill.

I liked the 4th gens when they came out. I thought that the Camaro from 1993-97 was pretty sharp, but I didn't like the 1998 refresh. With the Firebird, it was the reverse. I didn't like it so much from 1993-1997 (I liked it, but thought that Camaro was better), but the 1998 refresh gave the Firebird a good, aggressive look. I liked the Firebird well enough to buy a new, 1998 Trans Am convertible. That car could fly and looked great, but with the top up you couldn't see a damn thing.

I still think the 4th gens are good looking cars. But I never thought they were as nice as the 3rd. And, the 3rd gens still loook good. The 4th gens to me look dated. The 3rd gen design was more conservative, and conservative just ages better.

I don't think the 5th or 6 gen cars compare well at all. I had a 5th gen, and it was a nice car to drive, but it was very heavy and really more of a touring car. I thought of it as almost being a cross between a Monte Carlo and a Camaro. The 6th gen is a great car and I considered buying one. But I think that both it and the 5th gen are better to look at than to own. I do not like the high beltline on either car and I really think this hampers sales. Neither in reality is difficult to see out of, but it gives the perception that visibility is limited. I considered buying a 6th gen Camaro, but I ended up in a Cadillac ATS Coupe. Same chassis, tremendous handling car. Why they chose to give the Camaro that high beltline is beyond me. The chassis certainly didn't require it, as proven by the ATS Coupe.

The biggest problem with the 6th gen is probably that it's more difficult to live with. The 3rd gen backseat wasn't luxurious, but it was usable. And the hatchback really made it a pretty practical car. If there is a 7th gen car, which seems doubtful, I think they should consider another hatchback.

soulbounder

Too many mandated safety features and crash test requirements. The days of new, lighter, smaller cars has been over for quite some time. I think the 3rd gen design is quite good. The 5th gen first design was good, got worse, and is getting better again.

JimRockford

To a degree that’s true and personally I think the federal government has become too intrusive and should keep their nose out of private bussinesses and let them build what they want and let the public decide what they want to buy. That’s how it once was. None of the dream cars we saw in the 50’s and 60’s would exist under today’s oppressive dictatorship.
Funny isn’t it,that will all this BS given to the auto industry that the federal government doesn’t want to outlaw motorcycles or have a cage build around them to be “safer” lol.

that being said the Camaro STILL doesn’t have to look the way it does. That was a deliberate decision by the team at gm.

CKone

iTrader: (2)

good lord that thing is huge lol

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I do.

Jbuchanan

Here's my GTA and a 2014 ZL1 I bought at an auction nose to nose.

ThePain

There's nothing lazy about the Challenger, It's now the #2 selling muscle car and even in it's old age it keeps going and going. Dodge has a winner.

As for the 4th gen camaro, you're right, Absolutely hideous, only slightly worse than the current generation. I think it was a 90s thing however, the camaro wen't alll sleep and swoopy, and so did the the the late 90s Ford trucks. They got that new aero design that just looks awful.

It sucks because the 4th gens have that great performance, but like you, I wouldn't be caught dead in an ugly fast car. Hopefully one day I'll get a nice LS swap! And I'll have the perfect vehicle (well, I'd need to go manual too!)

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I agree about the Camaro... the performance is amazing.. a little tuning on an SS and you’re doing 11 seconds..

It doesn’t “feel” like a Camaro though. The thirdgens somehow felt like Camaros even though they were nothing like a 67-69..

I do feel that the design is some thrown together modern Lexus-nosed sporty toy with giant wheels and a rear window slope reminiscent of a first gen..

They really screwed the pooch with that bow tie in the wrong spot.. That was one of the most hated car designs I’ve ever seen on the internet.. I wonder if those cars will be worth money someday because of that... They already changed it..

Good quote right here:

”It’s like taking a rattle can to a Rembrandt.”

I don’t feel like anyone with passion designed this car.. It was supposed to please the masses and was a big miss.. The design should draw people to it, not patronize them..

ThePain

It has to be an incredibly rare, if not unprecedented feat that Chevy is already rushing out an emergency refresh lol

ktthecarguy

I disagree. When auto manufacturers have proven they can make cars safer we do not need to go backwards to the 1950's. Highway deaths are way down, due in no small part to better safety features in more cars.

Looking backwards is not the answer.

JimRockford

“Looking backwards is not the answer” lol! “Ending is better than mending! We live in the best of all possible worlds!”

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Moving “forward” in the direction we are going isn’t the answer for sure. A great many things were VASTLY SUPERIOR in the past.

For one thing I’m not talking about safety,I’m not chicken little. if you want to really be safe don’t drive any car at all and stay in bed your whole life.
Cars are safe,it’s the careless idiots behind the wheel texting or behaving like morons that cause accidents.

So should the federal government play “Big Daddy” and come in and ban motorcycles since they are terribly unsafe? Maybe they can mandate a cage be built around them to protect the drivers,or better still,in the interest if the riders own good,outlaw them outright? Or should we maybe let adults make their own decisions in life and bear the responsibility and consequences of their own decisions?

Im talking about design here,and there is no reason the Camaro had to have the high beltline (or pricetag) it does. Plenty of new cars don’t. We just have apathetic people in the design dept and were dealing with a society who buys garbage at wal mart and thinks nose rings,ear spacers and baggy pants are cool.

And on the stupid modern obsession with safety,I’m also not for the moronic idiot proofing and electronic “nagging” of todays plastic toy cars which make drivers more careless as they let the car do the thinking for them. You want safety pull all the damn electronic screens and gadgets out of the cars and get people to stop texting and playing with their stupid phones while driving.

I am also fed up with the whole “go green” cult religion bs being forced on people by where we have low flow toilets that back up,washing machines that don’t get clothes clean and waterless urinals that smell like a public park pisshouse.

it was our precious federal government and the damn “CAFE” standards that supposedly killed t-tops and 5.7 motors in the trans ams.

RKeats

I must admit, I love the look of the 2014 ish ZL1's, like the one that JBuchanan posted. I think they just look like pure evil, and still have a well balanced influence from the 60's Camaros. This is a 2019 ZL1 1LE that I had out last Saturday and I have to give it credit for the performance, the thing is a rocket ship and handles like it's on rails, but you can't see a damn thing out of it and IMO it only looks good because it has all the 1LE body stuff on it. As for 4th gens .. bleh. I'll take an LS Trans Am but anything Camaro or pre 1998 Firebird is a hard no from me.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

It’s not that I don’t think the 6th gen Camaros can be “cool looking”

Its more that I don’t feel like it’s a Camaro anymore and when people see it they don’t see themselves driving one..

I remember when the thirdgens were out people really wanted them.. I still hear people at cruise nights saying “I always wished I bought an IROC..”

I don’t think people will say that about the newer Camaros and that is the problem Chevy has..

People do see themselves driving Challengers and want them.. Same with Mustangs (even though I don’t love the new stang either)

I’m not a huge Challenger fan, but I can see that people do like them..

I think the 1998-2002 Camaro had the same issue.. People didn’t lust after them when they saw them... Some people could see past the looks and loved the LS performance, but it’s just not a car that calls to you across the parking lot..

RKeats

Sebring .. that's a cold comparison..

I totally agree with what you said though. Nobody seems to have this crazy desire or dream of owning a new Camaro. The name doesn't seem to mean anything to people as it does a Mustang or Challenger. I don't love the new Mustang look as it's also pretty catfishy, but I'll still take one over a new Camaro any day.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, when those 98-02’s came out that’s what I honestly saw.. I wished I could unsee it

People do lust after C7s too... Chevy got the new Vette right..

Billgluckman

There’s a lot of people who think 3rd gens are trash and I can’t argue that the build quality was great. I will say that 4th gen Trans ams are mean looking but past that I don’t much care for the others.

To be honest I kinda regret buying my 3rd gen. I want something that doesn’t have plastic bumpers.

Billgluckman

Ive always said the same thing about the Chrysler/camaro

gt4373

Just Saw This

https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/...led-exclusive/

ironwill

The automobile landscape, with computers controlling every function in cars today (in some vehicles , even the tail lights) and CAFE standards being ever-tightened, has fundamentally changed the marketplace. Along with the fact that 'performance' cars make up only a tiny percentage of sales due in large part to the fact that young people today just don't care about cars, certainly not in the way my generation or the one after mine care about them. People today---if they even bother to put down their phones/video games long enough to actually go get a drivers' license---care only about economical transportation they need to get them to work, to haul stuff from Home Depot, groceries, and their kids back and forth to school activities.

I imagine that there will always be a limited niche market for high-$$$ performance cars such as Corvettes and AMG Benzes and the like by doctors/lawyers willing to pay the increasingly high surcharges placed on those-type vehicles, but the general performance car segment of the automotive market is dying, and the manufacturers will respond to that market shift. The big $$$ is in SUVs and trucks, not in Camaros, Mustangs or Challengers.

The same thing basically happened in the early '70s; we (hot rodders of that era) thought the '60s muscle cars would always be around, but economics (high fuel costs and lack of availability of fuel along with ridiculously high insurance surcharges) killed that market segment deader than 4:00 AM. Enter the era of Chevettes, Vegas, Pintos, and whatever the name was of that POS that Dodge/Plymouth sold in that segment.

Manufacturers are going to build what the highest percentage of buyers want to buy, and discontinue everything else. They have no choice; it's simple economics.

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I won’t argue compared to newer cars 3rd gens (especially interior) is not great.. It’s weird to go from my IROC to my C4 and think that my IROC is worth more.. It’s not as nearly as nicely built.. Back then though, they were ahead of their time in the looks department..

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I agree.. but how sad is it we are seeing never before seen performance and these kids don’t even want driver’s licenses anymore!

ironwill

(shrug) ...........it's just a fundamental change in society's values and peoples' idea of what's important in their lives. The overwhelming presence of easily-accessed social media has been a profound influence on the interests of young people today (along with many older people as well).

Who knows; maybe 20 years from now there will be another renaissance in the automotive market---similar to when the IROC Z showed up in '85, bringing us to where we're at at this moment---and signal a new interest in performance cars. I'd imagine by then though that those cars won't have IC engines; the currently short range and long recharge times of EVs will have been solved, and fossil fuel will be a thing of the past.

RKeats

Hey it isn't everyone yet! I'm 22, and there are quite a few other people around my age on just this forum alone that are car lovers.

KMK454

Camaros? Not really - the 80's box melted into the 90's blob. I prefer thirdgens, but the 93-97 4th gen (especially the 96-97 SS) look great. The 98-02 are okay as well.

Sharp design born in the late 70's/early 80's:


Melted for the 90's:


Now for interiors... I'll take a bad 80's GM interior over a GM 90's interior any day. Cheap squared off plastic is better than the melty plastic interiors of the 90's. Say no to 4th gen interior swaps! They sort of work in the 4th gen cars, but they always looked out of place to me when swapped into boxier thirdgens.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Anyone who thinks a thirdgen's interior is cheap and poorly made, hasn't sat in a Fox body Mustang lately. Most people making those comments are judging the thirdgen on it's current condition, 100k miles and 10 owners on down the line, and judging by the standards of newer cars.

In 1999 a buddy had a 94 Z28. Cool car, tea green, black roof, impossible to see out of, you know the cars... With 60k some odd miles, the glovebox wouldn't stay closed because it was already broken. In the early 00's another buddy had a late 2nd gen Formula. Cool car, twin ram air scoops in the hood... Got in and closed the door, the door pull ripped right off. Bought my 86 Mustang in about 2006, walked out to tape the 60-day tag in the windshield, opened the passenger's door and it fell off! Well, almost, one bolt was still holding. Got to looking and 5 bolts on the passenger's side hinges sheered off flush, 3 on the driver's were the same. 40k miles on it at the time, hinges were fine a year earlier, it'd been sitting on the back lot all that time and the bolts sheered. Point is that lots of cars were poorly built, lots of cars still are. If your thirdgen is trash, it probably hasn't aged well, and owner car has a lot to do with it.

RKeats

Preach it. I've worked in a few domestic brand car dealerships, premium brand, and currently exotic/high performance, so I've experienced every kind of car you can think of. Build quality hasn't improved in the way people think it has. There are just way more parts, and things are way more money. Maserati trim pieces can't stand sun exposure, so after a few years they look like someone took a knife to them. Ferrari dash pads separate at the seams. Rolls Royce shifter handles like to come off in people's hands. Jump to basic stuff (Ford/GM/FCA), and there are recalls after recalls on things that should have never been an issue. Sneeze near a Challenger infotainment screen and it'll turn off. Drive a Ford Edge with a Panoramic Sunroof in the rain and it'll leak and fry the dash. Buy any foreign brand and start saving up for a motor and transmission. It's nuts. Third Gens have their issues, but for cars that were taken care of in the most basic way (oil changes on time, normal driving with good protection from the elements or salt) they survived very well. You can't look at a Third Gen that's been in a field since 2003 and say they were junk because the headliner is sagging.

TransamGTA350

iTrader: (2)

As an owner of both a 3rd gen and a 4th gen, I can attest to this. As far as styling both inside and outside, the thirdgens were spot on. The lines flow nicely, proportions are good, interior had character, they just got it right (third time's a charm?). While I do like the 4th gen styling, I like the 3rd gen styling better. The 4th gen is a very similar car to the 3rd gen, but the design changes to make it more modern feel like a compromise because it's really on the same underpinnings rather than a clean slate design. As far as build quality, the 4th gen is about the same as the 3rd gen. The interior quality and fit is about equal (not great, but if you are gentle, it will hold up OK), however the 4th gen interior looks and feels cheaper (bland, plasticky, a la Chevy Cavalier). The 3rd gen interiors look nice with their carpeted panels (console, kick, trunk, etc.), nicely styled dash and console layout, interesting seat fabrics, overhead consoles, etc.

Where the 4th gen shines over the 3rd gen is the performance. Stock for stock, the LT1 and especially the LS1 will hammer on the TPI cars and the 6-speed manual was available for all V8 cars for all years (big negative for the 3rd gen). They are a great package for the money (especially right now), but still, I have a soft spot for 3rd gens.

The 5th and 6th gen Camaros are great cars as well. The styling is more modern and the performance is phenomenal. Some people like them and some don't, and that's OK. If cars stayed the same forever, that would be boring. I think you won't know if the current styling is timeless or trendy until 25 years from now.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Not much difference really... The Formula would pull that Z28 off the line. Ran em several times, the 94 never was ahead of the Formula's front bumper. Auto to Auto, the LT1 wasn't anything to write home about. Then the Opti-puke issues started...

goalieforlife

iTrader: (4)

the camaro looked pretty sharp when it first came out.. but they squat down the front nose and now its looks jammed together and i don't really like it.. but its a modern day muscle car and it comes with a huge price tag depending on ur trim... u can thank Dodge Charger for bringing back the muscle rush after the hemi came in 4 doors 2006.... the magnum in 05 also... then soon came the challenger.. and then chevy got back in the muscle race and we have been racing uphill ever since.. the price/HP race that is.

carlos64030

iTrader: (1)

To be honest, I think the Mustang and the Widebody Hellkitty Challenger are very handsome looking cars and I wouldn't mind owning either one of those.

ThePain

This was always my source of disdain for the Foxbody Mustangs... they looked like shitty Honda Civic Ecoboxes.

ktthecarguy

Wow, so much to unpack.
WTF?

Like what? Can you name some examples?

Couldn't agree more about drivers. Can't remember the last time I heard somebody say, "I need to text less when I'm driving." I have a rule for my daughter, no phone AND no radio while she is learning to drive.

That's some rant about government and safety regs. Problem is, people DON'T take responsibility for their own actions. Everyone is sue-happy. "I crashed my own car, therefore it's YOUR fault!" In the face of that reality, our government needs to do what it can to make our roads safer. Not totally safe, but safer.

I never cared for the "retro" style trend, either. After all, what's next, re-imagining the 1970 Camaro? I better shut up, or they might get ideas.

Disabling phones and tablets while driving? Now there's an idea I can get behind. Come to think of it, I already did that with my daughter.

So, saving water is now a BAD thing?!? GLWS

Um, dude, did you fail to notice that T-tops were on the first 3rd gens offered, from day one? And to add a bit to your knowledge of history, car manufacturers killed off convertibles (not T-tops) because they feared govt regulations would kill them (but it didn't happen). So ragtops came back a few years later.

I do agree with you about the whole "retro" trend. But pulling safety features out of new cars is just a damn bad idea.

vinny R

Hey it isn't everyone yet! I'm 22, and there are quite a few other people around my age on just this forum alone that are car lovers.

I have a 20 yr. old son that has a very small interest in cars. He grew up around me so there was my car guy influence growing up. His friends that come around like my Z28 but they have no interest in it. They don't ask questions about it or even ask me to pop the hood. They do love the flashy look of my shiny red vert and comment to me how nice of a car it is and would love to take it for a spin but never once has any of them said , "man I wish I could have one of these". The other thing I noticed is they seem to have no desire to "wrench " on their cars and learn how they work. R Keats You are in the minority from what I see out there and I wish I saw more of the younger generation like you.

So after my wife asks me how much she can sell my car for and my son asking if he could get 1/2 the money for himself he sends me this pic of a lime green and flat black car. He says this is the car he wants, his dream car. I think you know what car the pic was, 2014 is the year.... WTF> Where did I go wrong!

​​​​​​​I guess the younger generation does like the new design!

RKeats

Yuck. Never seen that comparison either. I must admit though, I love the look of LX foxes. Not a huge fan of GT's though, I find they look a little too 80's cheesy

RKeats

Thinking about it, the majority of my friends are the same way. I'm a car nut so I've had all kinds of different stuff, and I try to only have things that are fun or neat in some way. Usually my friends appreciate the fact that it's a cool car, but don't care much beyond that. I've had a bunch of third gens now, and when I look at buying one, it's always funny to see the reactions from people when I tell them everything about their car before they can even say a word. It's unfortunate though because I love talking about these cars, hence why I spend so much time on this forum, but in person it's pretty uncommon to find someone who actually cares about them

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

If you swap out the opti spark for the LS style ignition the LT family of engines really are good engines that solve some of the SBC's downfalls.