For those of you that are really knowledgable about paint please chime in.

Here is the problem:
Repainted a little over a year ago with acrylic enamel (red) and looked gorgeous. Not base clear but it is dupont so it is a quality paint and used the high end hardener as well. It has not been driven in the winter and has not even seen too much bad weather thus far. It now even has wax on it. If you look at the roof (and some on the hood too) up close it looks like SH*T. There are a few dozen discolouration marks all over where the paint has actually changed colour (almost orangy)! If you are in a wash bay with a fluorecent light you just want to puke.....and I don't get it. This paint (which I thought and was told was one of the best if not the best brand out there seems like garbage. I have never ever seen this before in my life (to this degree anyway)

Last week I went out at 8:30AM (not in the car), cam back by noon and saw bird **** on it so I washed it off immediately. There was a discolouration where the crap was! Now we are not talking leaving the crap on there for a few days or anything, it was just a couple hours! What are you supposed to do, stare out the window at your car and run out every hour to clean it?? Even worse, a couple days ago I was washing poop off again and when done water drops were still on the car. It dried and left a bit of dirt there. When I washed it tonight, major discolouration to the paint!

I have a friend with an 80 monte carlo that was done 3 years ago in acrylic enamel (dupont he thinks) that is maroon and he never ever washes it or waxes it and drives it in the winter. Not a single spot like that on his car!

So am I delerious or is there something strange going on here? The durability of this paint seems to be crap. PLEASE tell me this is not normal and that this is a freak of nature.

I now feel so ****ty about all that hard work I put into the car in doing the body work.

 

right before you painted it did you have the paint shook in a paint shaker or did it sit awhile before you painted it? if so the different pigments could have seperated. the reason i know this is because the parts store i work at sells paint and i am the 1 that mixes most of it and 1 of the main paint guys that buys paint from us said that if it sits for a few days or more the pigments can start seperating. i could be wrong just my $.02!!!

thomas

 

I would assume that it was shaken well. I know they mixed it right before putting in on (a professional painted it).

So with this pigment separating, does it just do it spontaneously or does somethingtrigger it? It seems as though it happens on mine when something is on the paint.

 

how long after painting did you wax it??? Mothers says to wait 3 months atleast. Some wax can asorb into "soft" "un-cured" paint. And it will change color like that in them spots. Just cause the paint is dry doesn't mean its cured.

 

It was quite some time before wax went on. Probably 6 months or even a bit more. It was more than enough time. If it isn't cured by then.......

One other question, what is with baking? Do some places bake because they don't use hardner?? I though with hardner you didn't have to bake. Do some places still bake even with using hardner? if so, why?

 

Could it be rust???

Only reason I even think of it is I stripped down a motorcycle tank tonight. It still had good factory paint on it but its not the color I want. You would not believe how much rust I found. It was all over but espically on the top of the tank.

Strange how the top that is in the sun more often would have more rust under it.

 

Well, i guess I couldn't say with certainty unless I actually sanded down but I am 99% sure it is not. There are no bubbles and when I did the bodywork, the roof had no rust at the time.

I wish I could post a picture. The paint is actually a different colour now in these blotchy areas. Pretty much a dull orange instead of a brilliant red. Otherwise the paint is just as smooth etc.

So has anyone ever experienced this sort of thing before with acryloic enamel?

 

So no one has ever encountered this before with acrylic enamel???? I am bafled.

 

take the car back and ask the guy??

 

I have never heard of that.But i'm not a painter.If are painter is at work tommrow i will ask him for u.How big are the spots that have changed color.Like the size of a dime,quarter,ect,ect

 

Something is bogus here... Could be any combination of a multitude of problems from a bad mix of paint to the wrong reducer or bad primer compatability or poor pre clean prep etc. Only thing I can say is to pick a system whether it be Dupont, RM, PPG, or? and use ONLY that manufacturers recomended products from start to finish and there will be no paint issues. Most painters mix and match manufacturers for primer and sealer and top coats but this can cause all sorts of problems down the road ESPECIALLY with our third gens because of the many different materials we are trying to cover. The flexible bumpers are urethane and the skirts are either fiber glass or plastic and of course the body is steel. If each piece was not prepared using the right materials and using a compatable top coat then you are very likely to get problems of the "unkown" nature just as you have here. I don't profess to be the most knowledgeable painter out there but I have been painting for fifteen years and believe me sometimes strange unexplained things happen when dealing with so many complicated chemicals.

Acrylic enamel is not really the best choice in top coat for cars containing flexible parts as ours do. Single stage urethane is compareably priced and is considerably better for aplications where flexible parts come into play plus I feel it is far more durable. Base clear is really the ultimate way to fly though and when you factor in that its only a couple hyundred bucks more its worth using IMHO.

Sometimes with a good polish you can remove topcoat discolorations as you have described but use caution as it can be very easy to polish right through the paint if it only has a couple of coats. Some paint shops are amazing at laying on very minimal amounts of paint yet acheiving brilliant shine. Its just another way for them to save cost and profit more. Paint work should only be done by a TRUSTED and reputable shop as there is so many ways to burn customers by skimping out on cheap products or shooting on minimal paint and the customer will have no idea until five years down the road when it looks like barf. Be sure you know and trust whomever is doing the work. Good luck

 

The only other thing I can think of would be that the hardner passed its shelf life and is bad I have had this problem before with the same problem you have and if you try to buff out the bad spots be sure not to leave campound splatter on the other panals as it will stain into the paint good luck

 

Well thanks a lot for the responses guys, much appreciated. I definitely want to get back to where it was done at some point to see what they say, it's just that they are out of town.

The spots vary in size from smaller than a dime to a couple or few square inches in size. Most are small. If you stand back a bit it looks gorgeous but when you get close Depends on the light too.

87roc_T56 - It was both Dupont primer and dupont paint. HOwever, I did the bodywork myself at a different location and obviously had to use primer to cover up the bare metal. It was a different brand but was the better stuff even though it was rattle can (this company puts their good etching primer in a can). It was only in small spots but gots covered by the dupont high solids primer anyway. Where I didn't do bodywork the paint was left on the car but again most of it was covered with the dupont high solids since I had sanded the car with 180 (to get rid of the stone chips). What are your thoughts????

So what is single stage urethane?? I didn't know this was an option (I only new of acrylic enamel and base/clear). Is it along the lines of base/clear but without the clear (I though b/c was urethane based?).

So these spots if caused by paint / reducer etc problems, would they not show up pretty much right away??? I cannot confirm but it seems to me that these things come more when something has been on the paint. I can confirm that that is the case for at least some spots as I have wiped off stuff before and saw the spot.

 

well i ased the painter at my work and he said never saw anything like that.Said must have been water,oil,or something under the paint when he sprayed.I would take it back to the place that did it.hve u tried to cll them to see what they say.

 

oh no the rattle can primer...... i have read that you can not mix rattle can primer with real aitomotive sprayed from a gal primer as it would not take properly. although i don't know the chemistry of it it seems to be a bond issue. Are the spots where you used the rattle cans?

what i read said rattle can were fine to protect the metal but should be fully sanded off before painting with top coat primer.

just a guess i'm no expert.

Jeff

 

There are soooo many posibilities that could have caused this... Are the spots showing through over the metal portions of the car or on the plastic/flex parts?

The mention of grease or oil contamination earlier is a very real possibility here also.

As far as rattle can primer or the other products underneath the problems are this. Paint is a solid that is "thinned" or "reduced" into a liquid so we can work with it. Once the paint is sprayed the thinners or reducing agents migrate out of the paint into the air untl only the solid is left. So in answer to your question of why it takes time for the rattle can primer to cause problems to show is this; If the thinners of the spray bomb rattle can primer are not friendly/compatable with every single thinner/reducer of each material placed on or even under the primer then as the thinning/reducing agents evaporate through the paint it can have adverse affects from paint lifting, discoloration. spotting etc. and this can take some time. Typically it takes about three months for this whole process to complete and fully cure. This is why you can scratch fresh paint with your fingernail but after it has had a few months to cure it is like a rock.

The only thing here that puzzles me is that you say this was done a year ago so this is rather long for something underneath the paint to be causing you trouble. But like I said there are a zillion possibilities. Perhaps the paint has been weakened by the primers or poor prep ( grease/dirty )from the paint shop and has alowed the paint to age prematurely in these areas or? The first thing I would do is take it back to the shop that painted it and see if they are willing to help you out. If you get lucky a buff or two later and it will look as good as new. If they start giving you some gobleegook tale and want you to pay more to have it "enhanced" I would pass and try to polish it out yourself and see how it goes. So long as you don't buff the paint off the worst you are out is an hour or so and $30.00 for some good polish.

Lastly if the problems are over any of the plastic/flex pieces then I would be pretty sure it is due to improper preparations but I will not detail out all that unless this is indeed where the problems are.

Single stage urethane is very similar to base clear except the pigment and topcoat are one stage just as acrylic enamel. Where base clear has the pigment or color coat go on first then the clear coat for shine and protection on top. So yes both are urethane and very similar but single stage is half the price but much better in applications where flex is a factor and besides that I feel it is far superior paint then acrylic enamel but its only my opinion.

Hope this helps. Good luck man

 

87roc_t56 - actually i don't believe that any of the spots are over the plastic....actually I shouldn't say that, definitely next to none though, mostly over the metal. The one issue with over the plastic was when I put the nose decal on (almost a year after the paint). USing the soap and water method and leaving it for a couple hours as instructed, when I pulled off the outer plastic covering the paint had been discoloured under the square plastic transfer film Although this happened on the sail panel ones too. I couldn't believe that either because I only used dish soap and water.

The spots definitely are not just over spots where the rattle can primer was. There appears to be no relation.

THe other thing though is that there is currently wax on there. Should that not protect the paint from stuff like bird poop, sap etc?? Even without wax would it be reasonable to expect the paint to be fine unless you left bird poop on for like days or a week??? Just wondering cuz as in the first post there was that one blotch of poop that was only there for a few hours (and wax is on) and it still appeared to discolour the paint?

I am definitely going to go and talk to the painter though, I may have to wait a couple weeks though to get down there since it is out of town. I will let you know what I hear.

One other question though....baking. What is the purpose. I was under the impression that the use of hardners in aftermarket paint replaced the need for baking as done at the factory??? I know some people still advertise baking but is that just to accelerate the cure time even faster than that of the hardner?? Will a paint that uses hardner cure just as hard as a paint job that is baked, just a bit longer??? I know mine was not baked and it seems to be easy to scuff etc (although that may be because I am expecting too much from acrylic enamel????)

oh and thanks for all the help, I really appreciate you taking the time I don't really know much more than the basics about paint.

 

If the plastic parts have not been prepped properly the paint will have very poor adhesion and will likely blister when hot sun hits it but usually there is no color issues. Prepping plastic for paint is a drag as there are many steps. Wash, clean with special plastic cleaner, spray with adhesion promoter, spray on compatable primer with flex if nec, then topcoat. If all of those steps are not taken in that order the paint will not adhere properly.

Baking is for speed only and does nothing to aid in paint quality. Some fussy painters I know swear against baking for too technical reasons to explain.

I am wondering if perhaps the paint is not acrylic but just plain enamel in which csae its junk and discoloration and other quality issues are very common. You sure its indeed acrylic enamel? Paint shops have been sued a few times around here for such things. Like i said before its very difficult to tell once the paint is on what it actually is and straight enamel costs around $25.00 for a gallon verses at least five times that much for acrylic and more for urethane so you can see how they get tempted into it.

As far as wax goes it does offer protection to the paint but it is not going to stop any form of chemical attack. Bird and especially squirrel crap is nasty stuff and can even damage clear coat. Unfortunately you have chosen red which is the weakest of all colors due to the high pigment content so it is very susceptable to such damage so it is also possible that the paint is okay and whatever is landing on it is causing this damage but thats what your paint shop should be able to determine when they see it. For anything I paint red I strongly recomend base clear as the real advantage is that the clear takes the abuse and the color stays much better protected from sun and other topical damage. I am sure you have noticed how many red cars fade versus all other colors so this is why.

From the sounds of your description a little buffing will likely fix you right up as there are no obvious clues that would point to poor primers/prep etc. That still could be the source of your problem though but likely a little polishing will bring it right back to new. I really don't know what else to advise until you check with whomever did the work and hope that they can get you fixed up. At least now you are a little more informed. Good luck!

 

I have no reason to believe it isn't acrylic enamel. I trust the people at the shop as I know the owner alright now. It was dupont paint too.. They only use dupont apparently. I suppose there is always the chance but I would put it extremely low.

That just figures that red is the worst! It is also the most expensive....that's no fair We were kind of forced to stay red otherwise the door jambs and engine bay would have had to be done too and that would have been more costly than what we were looking for at the time. Although I now see the extra for base/clear would have been worth it.

Someone was telling me a while ago that it is possible to put a clear coat over acrylic enamel. Is that true?? (urethane over enamel). If so, would that not be overall tougher and provide more protection than base / clear siince acrylic enamel is a lot thicker than base (isn't base almost like a dye that it's so thin)?

 

I have heard of guys clearing over enamels and lacquers before but have never tried it so I don't have any clue how long it will last. I would expect it would work out alright.

Usually paint shops have a system and use it exclusively whter it be Dupont, RM, PPG etc. It makes sense to do this as you can ensure compatability and you also get used to the charecteristics of each system which helps to turn out better quality.

Its good that you have trust in the shop so we can pretty much rule out any shady business which would put you at better odds to get this fixed easily. Yes base is very thin and is similar to lacquer primer in application.

Yeah red is also the most expensive paint ( aside from exotic stuff ) because of the high pigment content making the mix job quite a bit more involved. Looks great when its all clean though.

So things are sounding better. Post back what your findings are.

 

Yeah, I'll definitely post what I find (it may be a couple weeks though as mentioned earlier). Thanks again for all the input and help!