JPrevost

Okay, I have a 91 RS with stock brakes (drum rear). My pads don't squeek at all but they do take a while to warm up. I wish I knew what kind of pads they were . Oh well, anyways, I was going down this road near me and I almost ran a red light. Almost is because the darn road was 4 lanes wide and had a HUGE "Exit Lane only" like what you would see on a highway off ramp. Anyways, I was going about 60 when I was maybe 100' from the light I saw a car pulling across the lanes but nobody was next to me so I quickly noticed the red lights and smashed the pedal down. The car tires did a little squeel but did NOT lockup. In fact they were so good at not locking up that my friends in the car thought I had ABS. I know this isn't exactly tech but these pads rock, I never knew how important the right pads were. They must be as if not more important than brake size. That's all I have to say .

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, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

Ward

iTrader: (1)

ABS does not directly help you stop faster. It simply keeps the driver from locking up the wheels. A good driver who knows his car can do the same by holding the brakes right before the point of lockup. But I do second that stock brakes are not bad.

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1983 Firebird
TH700R4 Auto
Small Block 400
LG4 ECM, Intake, Carb, Distributor, etc.
Soon to be non-computer.
Clarion Head Unit 45X4
2 Pioneer 400W 12" Subs
Third Gen Performance
"A four cylinder is half an engine."
"Ponies can run, but birds can fly..."

AntiVTEC

I've just had my front brakes redone (calipers, pads, and rotors) with all new "stock" parts. Braking performance is good for this car. I've got drum in the back too! Lots of guys here say that they cant lock there wheels up... I dont know what because I can lock mine up if i wanted or needed to. And its not because i have wack tires either.

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85 2.8L Sport Coupe 5-speed.
Mods: Hpertech chip and powerstat, MSD 6A-L, Crane fireball coil, Accel Cap and Rotor, Dynomax hi-flow cat and catback system with a dynomax magnum race bullet muffler on the i-pipe, K&N filterchargers, Gutted Air Boxes, 8mm Wires, Eibach Sportlines and Tokiko springs/shocks setup, Global west sub frames, Suspension techniqs front and rear sway bars, and good ole 88 IROC wheels with Kumo Ecstas on em!
"It's not the ricers, it's those damn V8's!"

Wins: 2000 V6 Accord, 69 302 Mustang, 2000 Auto VR6 Jetta, 89 Toyota MR2, 90 Civic Si, 76 350 Camaro, 2000 3.8 5-speed Camaro, ~68 Chevelle 350, 92 CRX Si.

82camaro

In most situations, stock brakes are just fine. However, try doing that hard stopping over and over again--like on a road coarse. Brake fade.


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350 with stealth intake, holley carb, 470 lift cam. 700r4 with .5 boost valve, vette servo, tci lock-up kit, B&M megashifter. Richmond 3.73 gears, powertrax locker, timkin bearings, synthetic lube. Custom 3 inch single into 2 2.5 pipes. 1 1/2 drop springs, 1 5/16 solid front sway bar, 1 inch rear bar, custom subframe connectors, custom LCA relocation brackets. Kobel ground FX, currant red metallic paint. Lots of other stuff...
82camaro

99Hawk120

Yes, actually they do. In everyday, normal driving I consider them "barely adequate", and that's only with good pads. In a panic stop situation from high speed, they are pathetic. I nearly got killed once trying to stop from ~120.

Drive a car with better brakes before you say stock brakes don't suck. If you don't have anything to compare it to, your statement means nothing.

And yes, I'm fanatical about brakes. I want the absolute best braking performance I can get out of every car I own. Brakes are far too important to cut corners on. Remember, the life you save may be your own.

IROCZ89

I don't think everyday driving includes trying to stop from 120 mph. For LEGAL everyday driving that does not include repeated hard braking I beleive stock brakes are adequate.

If you are racing or autocrossing then of course stock brakes are no where near good enough.

Phil

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89 IROC 5.0 TBI
89 RS 5.0 TBI, T-Tops, Soon to be a IROC clone.

[This message has been edited by IROCZ89 (edited September 28, 2001).]

JPrevost

99Hawk120, what is your problem? You statement has a very strong attitude. You think I haven't been in cars with better brakes? What do you know about my experience behind the wheel?
Sorry but you came off as a royal ***.
Understand that I was talking about normal conditions and I wanted to make it clear that NOWHERE did I say anti-lock brakes stop you faster. I was talking about how I did NOT lockup the brakes (would be bad) and that the car stopped really well.
Now lets compare what I've driven and what cars I've been in to compare a similar situation: 96 vette, Taurus SHO (4 wheel disc with vette brakes upfront was a custom job), newer f-body's, 87 and 95 suburban (lol), Mitsubitchy eclipse, NJSpeeder's RS camaro with lots of weight reduction and baer brake all around, Nissyawn 300z (non turbo ), and plenty others. It's true that I haven't driven all of those to the max for a long period of time BUT under normal driving conditions I think our stock brakes work very well and give great feedback for the driver before locking. To lockup my brakes you need to use 2 feet to the floor, with one foot you can get the tires to stop and turn, stop and turn which is plenty good enough to get me around the hundreds of deer that plague New Jersey. I was in a friends brand new Jetta one night (1.8 T) and he slammed the brakes and the car did such a bad nose dive it wasn't funny. This brings up my other point, it's not all about the brakes. The torque arm, rear weight, springs and shocks, sway bar, and rest of the suspension play a HUGE part in controlled braking. I don't care if you have 14" rotors all around, if it's on a suburban with a huge wheel base and dinky swaybars you aren't going to be able to control where you end up (reason for a brush gaurd aka Deer smasher).
No hard feelings Hawk but please don't jump on me about MY stock brakes working great.

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, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

Camaro_hunter_d

Since when is driving at 120 "normal everyday driving" unless your on a race track.! I can say my brake's can stop my car VERY WELL from 90(on the highway) to 55-60. I have tried to lock my brakes and after I redid them almost 2 1/2 years ago no go, unless on slick or loose pavement/gravel. I checked them last weekend and I still have well over half the pad left them to boot. And yes I have been in cars with much "grabier" brakes and I do not care for them. The brakes on my car are very predictable and I know what they are gonna do. I like to know how they are gonna react 100 percent of the time, of which I do with these. I have been in other cars where the brakes were unprdictable and it was scary as hell. Sometimes the brakes would grab then release, or they would lock up in a heartbeat.

After my engine transplant to a turboed 4.3 I do plan on getting upgraded brakes, but only in the rear until I see how they handle the increased power. If I want more braking force I will upgrade the fronts at that time as well.

wm_sorg

I never appreciated my breaks until I bought a new 98 Jeep Cherokee. Like a dumb a$$ I traded in my 87 formula with rebiult suspension and koni yellows. That Cherokee had the worst brakes out of any car I ever owned. The rotors and drums would warp every 3k miles. I did not drive it hard. I think they used brake components from a K car. Anyway I have never had a problem with any of my birds. That 87 had almost 190k on it and it was smooth as glass.

Ward

iTrader: (1)

"I nearly got killed once trying to stop from ~120"

Why were you doing 120 in a car with stock brakes since you know they suck. If you are going to do 120, you are already pushing your luck.

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1983 Firebird
TH700R4 Auto
Small Block 400
LG4 ECM, Intake, Carb, Distributor, etc.
Soon to be non-computer.
Clarion Head Unit 45X4
2 Pioneer 400W 12" Subs
Third Gen Performance
"A four cylinder is half an engine."
"Ponies can run, but birds can fly..."

Tas

the brakes on my friends '98 Landcruiser are insane. I'd be surprised if the f-body baer kit would be that good.

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship :
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99Hawk120

You say adequate, I say barely adequate. Same general category. I never said stopping from 120mph was "everyday driving". You assumed that, though I can easily see why you did. IMO, they aren't very good at stopping from 80mph in a panic stop situation either, and those situations DO occur with alarming regularity around here on the Beltway, I66, or I95.

99Hawk120

It's called being younger and much stupider, and not knowing your brakes aren't that good. We all make mistakes, that was one of mine.

IROCZ89

"I never said stopping from 120mph was "everyday driving". You assumed that, though I can easily see why you did."

I did not assume that it was every day driving. I stated the fact that it is not everyday driving on streets.

Truthfully only fools expect OEM brakes to be good enough to stop well from 120 mph, and soon will be a darwin award receipient.

Panic situations do occur and I will agree that sometimes the paniced driver will not use their brakes wisely. However if you are careful and do not lock up your brakes along with giving yourself an out then our stock brakes are adequate (called defensive driving).

Phil

Jza

I think the stock brakes are "adequate" but suck when compared to newer fare. QED

breathment

i think my brakes such terribly. they have new front pads. its 4 wheel disk, and i feel like im driving a car with no power brakes almost. maybe its just my brakes, but my friend had a 70 Torino that weighed a good 600 LBS more then my car with 4 wheel drums that stops alot better then my car, and my friends previous T\A.

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- David
88' GTA 5.7L TPI MODS---> air foil, K&N, Shift Kit, 180* therm, TB bypass, Gutted CAT, Flowmaster 80 Series

MichaelRBrumm

Stock brakes suck. Our f-body cars are WAY too heavy for these puny little things.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">smashed the pedal down. The car tires did a little squeel but did NOT lockup.</font>

If the stock brakes were good, then all four tires should have locked up. The reason they didn't is because the stock brakes are too weak to do it.

Having brakes that cannot lock up is NOT a sign of having good brakes! Really good brakes lock up and require near-expert technique to prevent this during sudden stops. This is why ABS is a good thing when you have good brakes! (assuming you aren't an expert)

iroc5speed

locking brakes is bad. JPrevost said he had to put 2 feet on the brakes to lock them. so the brakes are good in that even in a panic they will not lock, unless you use both feet. Plus, the biggest brakes in the world will not help a bad driver. Just because his stock brakes are good does not mean all are, but his with his mods are good.

back to locking brakes. if you lock them and do not pump them thereafter, you will crash. If they don't lock, and are right on the edge, you will not. So tell me, which is better?

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'86 IROC 5-speed
305 LG4
edelbrock performer rpm intake
edelbrock 600 cfm carb
msd pro billet hei distributer
'95 3.23 rearend
hotchkis rear suspension
PST front polygraphite suspension
"speed kills. buy a f@&d, live forever."

iroc5speed

oh, by the way, I just redid my brakes on all corners:disks/drums. They stop just like JPrevost's. I love them. I have suspension mods, so I think that helps a lot, but they are good brakes.

99Hawk120

Locking brakes is bad. Having brakes that are unable to lock is not a good thing either. Yes, the brakes COULD be just on the verge of lockup (as it sounds like with the person who could lock them with both feet). Or, you might still have plenty of grip left and simply can't use it because the brakes are inadequate. If you're unable to lock them no matter what, then you really don't know if you're getting everything out of your brakes that you can. I was never able to lock mine, but that could be because of the 255 series tires offering more grip than I had braking power.

Really, everything else aside, the only thing that you can compare is braking distance. I'm curious as to what you guys who think the brakes "don't suck" can manage in terms of stopping distance from 60mph. As far as daily driven vs. a race car, I would think that the big difference would be fade resistance and temperature range. I'm not satisfied with my brakes unless they can haul me down from high speed in a hurry, ONCE (i.e. a panic stop or drag racing), and they must do so with cold brakes. After that they can fade all they want.

BTW, both feet on the brake pedal is only an option for the automatic guys. The pedal in a manual car isn't wide enough for two feet unless they are size 1, and even if you could, you'd have to pop the gearshift into neutral or grow a third foot for the clutch pedal to avoid stalling the car.

[This message has been edited by 99Hawk120 (edited October 03, 2001).]

Ed Maher

Man, i can't believe this debate found life again.

Like ron said, if you are completely unable to lock your tires up, then they suck, period. If you cannot bring your tires to just past the lock-up threshold then you have no idea where that threshold is and you might have a lot more tire grip left to use.
Either you guys who think your non-lockable brakes are really lucky and they are coming to really close to the threshold, or you are really lucky that you haven't needed to stop faster. My old 85 Z28 had the scariest brakes ever, couldn't lock up and sure as hell wasn't using all the rubber it had available. I always considered myself lucky for never crashing it in a panic stop. If you guys had a thridgen braking experience like that your opinion on the subject of non-locking brakes would quickly cede to the science and logic behind the fact that non -locking brakes are inadequate by any standard.

Dak

My wife has a 90RS with a disc rear end from an '87IROC.Though not terrible they leave something to be desired IMO.I wish I could get them to stop like the brakes in my car.I have an '89 Mazda RX-7 with the four piston front cailipers and vented rears.But then again it weighs quite abit less so that probably helps too.

powermite

I can only tell you of my experience.Living here in the UK most of our cars are Brits,German or French and generally on new cars the brakes are excellent.
My 85 TA had 4 wheel discs which had new rotors and pads on the front with new calipers and pads on the rear and i can honestly say it was the worst braking car i have ever driven.I have done loads of mods since ive owned the car but the best by far is the Baer Racing PBR Kit front and rear.Overnight my TA was tranformed into one of the best stopping cars I had driven.I now know that whenever i press the brake pedal i will be able to stop from what ever speed .
powermite

86Chicken

I can lock my brakes at will. The obvious goal is to not do that but at least I know how far I can go.

This is on a car whose brakes are not in the best of shape, too. I need to replace/rebuild both front calipers and the rear brakes (drums) could stand to have some work too.

Maybe I have a 1LE V6 Ha!

My $0.02

Dale

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1986 FireBird
2.8L MPFI
1/2 CAI
Gutted Cat, No muffler
Was 700-R4 --&gt; Now T5

Great cars aren't bought, they are built

99Hawk120

Actually, you probably have a lack of grip. P175/75R14 tires, maybe?

86Chicken

I have BFG 235/60-15s. They are as wide as I can go on stock rims.

Dale

99Hawk120

Hmm, interesting. Not the answer I expected (your tires are the same size as my fronts).

I do know my car's breaking was better with the 2.8 in it (before I swapped in the V8), and that it also braked better with drums in the rear than the '82-'88 style discs.

I'd be interested to see (roughly) what your stopping distance was 0-60. Obviously if you can lock 'em, you should be able to get as good a stop as you can with the tires you have.

86Chicken

If I had an even close to accurate way to measure my stopping distance I would try to get some numbers, I would also like to know.

My brakes are not real good right now tho. My drivers side caliper sticks a little and there is something screwy with the back. It still stops better than my pickup, so I am not in much of a hurry.

Dale

ANDYZ28

I thought I have "good" brakes. That is ,until I did my 1LE brake upgrade. I am still amazed by those brakes.

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82Z 305 w/comp 270 magnum cam,Edelbrock Performer RPM,Holly 1850-4,serpentine belt drive.TH700R4 w/B&M holeshot 2000 converter,& megashifter.1LE front brakes, 9bolt 3.27 w/1LE rear brakes.Aluminum driveshaft,boxed rear susp.poly everything,IROC swaybar+wonderbar. 70mph@2200rpm ASE Master Tech plus L2
also recently obtained a
'69 chevelle SS396 w/Turbo 400,3.31 posi,11.0 to 1, headers,etc. Latest project car,'86 IROC stock 305TPI hit on left side,but not too bad

Camaro_hunter_d

Well I have 225/60/15 all the way around and have not locked them up unintentionally in 2 years. I have had no need to IMO. I have a 5 speed, If I need to stop quick I used the tranny with the brakes. I have "chirped" the rear while stopping but thats it(5th-3rd down shift and 5th-2nd). I have never lost control of the car, and I have stopped from 40-0 in under 30 feet.(DAMN KIDS that ignore the sidewalk! and traffic!) I have driven in many a differing condition, from country roads, to 234 in ManASSas Va, to Norfolk, to the open road of 64W. I have driven on snow, ice, rain loose gravel... I have locked them up in gravel(on purpose) but not on anything else(unintentionally). I know how to use my brakes and I know how they will react to everything that I have encountered. I do not push them in "dangerous" situations. I have not dealt with many "panic" brake situations simply because I avoid them!.

Matt86Z

My brakes are fine, and I autocross the car regularly. I can lock them up if I'm to agressive on the pedal, but of course this pokes our times up too much on the autocross course.

I've got the Al drums (rare for '86, I'm told) on the back, and they cool down very fast, plus, I'm toying with the idea of venting the fronts via NACA ducting front the front fender area, below the center "crease" in the body. In my eyes, this will make "ok" brakes into "no-more-fading" brakes.

mystikkal_69

iTrader: (2)

i would consider stock brakes adaquate if they ever worked properly. as for locking up the brakes the fronts always lock up.

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86',88',89' IROC-Z, 350 TPI, 700-R4

94' Formula, LT1, 6spd

JPrevost

Seems like this post is 50/50 on brakes being good/bad
I noticed that a few guys are using 1Le brakes and I'm sure those are better. I'm sure you can tell the difference, but still nobody has posted any hardcore information showing that the thirdgens have bad brakes. Brakes in an untouched 85 coupe may be terrible but that might not be the brakes fault, there's more to it than just the brake size itself and I think that is where everybody is getting confused. If I have bad flex lines, cheap pads and bad vacuum from power brakes...I'd have a hard time stopping that's for sure. Now if I had all the in good condition why wouldn't it stop well? I just read a post that talked about how awesome the Earl's flex lines were. How they were a noticable difference! It just seems that too many people junked their stock brakes for better brakes before seting them up properly. That's just my opinion I know. I respect Hawks ideas and like I said before, there is no doubt the 1Le brakes are better BUT the stock brakes aren't terrible. Should I be able to lock my brakes by just pushing down on the brakes? I hope not or I would probably have totalled my car already. I'm just glad my brakes are working as well as they are and I challenge anybody in the Columbus Ohio area to have a stopping contest with me .

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, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website