let me start this thread off with:


now that thats out of the way... im just going to come out and say it. i want to fit this behind the 16" 4th gen 'snow flake' wheels.

the idea:
offset the rotor as far back as is safe and adjust the caliper accordingly (probably use a cole racing hat and rotor). how hard could it be?

hmm..

what would like to ask is: will i be able to mount the caliper far enough in on the rotor to get it to fit?

the idea is to kinda sorta but not really mimic the FSL kit.

 

What is your goal here? With a wheel like that, I would think this is a functional build and not for beauty? If correct, I would indeed suggest a Wilwood FSL based kit. The CTS-V calipers are heavy.

With that said, and assuming they will fit inside the wheels radially (kinda doubt it) the next issue is how long the caliper mounting lugs are. You are going to have a hard time getting the caliper to mount for a smaller 13" rotor and still have a good design. With a far enough offset rotor it might be possible. How much do you want a big project?

John

 

evo caliper (same as ctsv, maybe different mounting lugs):


ctsv mounting caliper mounting lugs:


evos can apparently fit SOME 16" wheels with the brembos on a 13" rotor. from what i read, if the distance from the top of the mounting pad to the back of the spoke is 2 inches or more, it will clear the face of the caliper.

also, i would like to know the IR (inside radius) of the wheel needed to clear the brakes

John, the idea is to use everything from a Flynbye or Kore3 kit except the rotor and bracket. i may use a cole racing rotor setup with their grand national hat that has a custom offset to put the rotor in the stock location or about a 1/4" farther back than stock.

 

The CTS-V calipers are not the same as Evo calipers. The CTS-V is a large body caliper while the Evo/STI is a mid sized caliper. Also the lugs on the Evo caliper are much shorter and therefore much easier to mount than the CTS-V.

The caliper face to back of spoke clearance is of course dependent on the offset of the rotor. You could measure the clearance from the wheel mounting face to the back of the spokes and back calculate the rotor offset required.

The radial clearance is tight as well. It really depends on the design of the wheel in that area along with the caliper design. Fixed calipers are typically compact in that dimension, but I would never guarantee a fitment without measuring first.

Still though, by far your greatest challenge is figuring out how you are going to bring the caliper inboard enough to accommodate the smaller 13" rotor. It is sporty as is with the 14" rotor. Then figuring out how you are going to offset the caliper back far enough. You will probably have to reverse the caliper to bracket bolts. Which means drilling out the threads in the calipers and tapping the bracket.

John

 

responses in bold

there may be a couple ways to do he bracket. more googling a measuring required..lol.

 

judging by this:


it looks like the mounting point of the caliper will have to be moved down/around the rotor to clear that bottom ear. not hateful but yea.

also, i could use a spacer + hat offset on the setup, all spacer and no offset, or all offset and no spacer.

 

Also keep in mind that in all of the LS1/Camaro SS/CTS-V installations I have seen, the lower bracket to spindle bolt head is comprimised. The issue is there is minimal room for that bolt head to live. So people have been using ground down and/or button head bolts in that location. This is not desireable, button heads are not specd for structural applications. If you move the caliper inboard, the situation will get worse. My suggestion would be to considering running the bolt in the reverse direction. Drill out the threads in the spindle, machine a flat seat on the back of the spindle, then tap the bracket.

 

the schematic drawing of the brembos says the CTSV caliper is 20mm SHORTER, end to end, in length than the FSL and almost exactly as thick front to back.

why wouldnt that bolt be run the opposite way anyways? once its torqued down, wouldnt the forces at play be the same as the non-reversed bolt? i wouldnt think it would twist...

http://lukeskaff.com/?page_id=355
"If you are doing a CTS-V brake setup the bracket should be machined out of 1/4 inch thick steel when using a standard hub or a 3/8 bracket with the 1LE (HD) hub and add another 3/8 spacer to bring the bracket far enough out to shim the caliper on the center of the rotor." what if i used a 1LE hub with a .375" (3/8) offset rotor?


and a picture of what you suggested, sort of:


it looks like it IS doable but will be difficult. my kinda project..lol

 

Sorry, I am struggling to understand what you are saying here. Maybe you can try again.

the schematic drawing of the brembos says the CTSV caliper is 20mm SHORTER, end to end, in length than the FSL and almost exactly as thick front to back.

I don't know what you mean here, 20mm shorter end to end? And the thickness of what?

why wouldnt that bolt be run the opposite way anyways? once its torqued down, wouldnt the forces at play be the same as the non-reversed bolt? i wouldnt think it would twist...

It doesn't matter which way the bolt is facing as long as it is torqued and the head doesn't interfere with anything. Nobody that I am aware is doing what I am talking about. I have played around with the concept and it would work. If I ever developed a LS1 / CTS-V bracket, it is what I would do.

"If you are doing a CTS-V brake setup the bracket should be machined out of 1/4 inch thick steel when using a standard hub or a 3/8 bracket with the 1LE (HD) hub and add another 3/8 spacer to bring the bracket far enough out to shim the caliper on the center of the rotor." what if i used a 1LE hub with a .375" (3/8) offset rotor?

With what you are trying to do, I would think you would reverse the orientation of the caliper and bracket. In other words, the caliper touches the back of the bracket, instead of the front. Like you pictured with the Wilwoods. To do this, you would need to tap the bracket and drill out the threads of the calipers. Not a big deal, just something to think about.

Again though, in order to clear the spindle, and still fit on a 13" rotor, you are going to need a hugely offset rotor. I am not saying it is not possible, but then you need to think about spindle to rotor clearance.

I am still though wondering why you want to use these calipers instead of something like the Wilwoods.

 

the general idea is to be able to use these brakes then, when i have bigger wheels, go to the 14" rotor.

the stock rotor from the face of the wheel mounting pad the the face of the friction surface is 1.25". 2.25" front to back. i dont think there would be clearance issues setting the offset in such a way that puts the friction surface of the rotor in the stock location.

 

Racer,

I am not sure where you are getting your measurements from, but the Wilwood FSL caliper is most certainly not longer than the Camaro SS / CTS-V caliper. In fact it is a good bit shorter. See picture below. I have not bothered to measure the thickness, because it really doesn't matter. what matters is the distance from the mounting face to center of the rotor. With that said, with my experience handling both calipers, I would be astounded if the Camaro SS / CTS-V caliper was not thicker (by your definition) than the Wilwood FSL.



Agreed, if you put the rear friction surface at the same place as the rear friction surface of the stock rotor, you will have no issue. However I highly doubt that will be enough offset to reverse mount the caliper on the bracket. At least not without a very creative (3D) bracket design. Another issue I just thought of. The CTS-V / Camaro SS caliper mounting lugs next down at the back of the caliper where the threads end. By reversing the caliper on the bracket, you would be left with a smaller and unsatisfactory surface for the caliper to sit on the bracket. You would likely want to machine off this step down.

So you are going to buy custom 13" high offset rotors, build a wild 3D bracket, just so you can re-use the $100 calipers when you go to 14" rotors?

You know when you make the switch you will need:
- new brackets
- new rotors
- new spindles

May I suggest it will likely be a lot cheaper to just build a conventional 13" kit then sell it when you are ready to go 14". I think you will be in a lot less money in the long run and will be using off the shelf parts.

John

 

http://www.wilwood.com/Images/Calipe...rnal-cm-lg.jpg




part of the reason the FSL's clear so well looks to be mounting and how far in the wheel arc the 'tips' sit vs the Brembo. the FSL has a flatter shape to it while the Brembo is bulkier. the positioning of the pistons would have an effect on where the caliper could be mounted as well.

 

What you have pictured is not the Camaro SS / CTS-V caliper. I will be shocked if you find a technical drawing for an OEM caliper.

What you have pictured is likely an aftermarket Brembo caliper. The radial mounts is a pretty decent giveaway. The radial mounts make mounting the caliper WAY easier than the lug mounts.

It seems like you may have a lot of research to do before tackling this project.

John

 

the only difference between the 2 (the schematic and the V caliper) is the mounting lugs. it is otherwise the same model used on the SS, CTS-V, Lotus, Viper... the schematic was provided by brembo to someone who already asked them about the V calipers.

i have some ideas for a bracket that ill play with. prototyping i wood ftw.

 

You can choose to believe whoever you want. The fact is that is not the same caliper family as the CTS-V / Camaro SS. I quick inspection of pictures shows that.

The schematic you have shown is for a caliper with 110mmx54mm pads, whereas if I remember correctly the SS / CTS-V pad is 132mmx59mm.

The schematic you have shown shows 40/36mm pistons whereas the SS / CTS-V is 44/40mm.

The schematic you have shows front to back oriented bolts whereas the SS / CTS-V has back to front oriented bolts.

The schematic you have shown appears to show internal fluid cross-over whereas the SS / CTS-V is external.

Again, I think you need to do a little more research before you start. Good luck with the project.

John

 

Here are the measurements for the Wilwood FSL and CTS-V / Camaro SS 4 piston Brembo.

 

the brembo looks to be right at about an inch longer with the height, not including the lugs, to be fairly close.

with the mounting lugs, the brembo is probably about 1/2" 'taller'

when you get a chance, can you get a similar picture of the back of the brembo with the ruler?

 

Remember, the Brembo lugs are designed for the 14" rotors. Even so they mount ~1" less radially than the Wilwood. Consider now going down to a 13" rotor and they will be around 1.5" less. Then you have the stiffening ribs to deal with which always gets in the way with these lug mount Brembos. Every GM Brembo caliper I get, I want to install on a smaller rotor, and it is never easy.

6 piston CTS-V caliper on Camaro SS 14" rotor. That is a lot of brake to fit inside a 17" wheel if you ask me.



Specifically what measurements are you looking for?

 

just the same sort of picture of the back of the caliper with the ruler.

it is a lot of brake to stuff into a 17 [i would love to see how well it works with the Weld RT-S 17" wheel ]. eventually, i will go to the bigger and better brakes (like those awesome 6 piston CTSV calipers) but, for now, i want to at least try to see if i can get these to fit and work with the setup i have. it looks like there IS a way to do it without going too wild with the bracket.

btw, i found the thread with ebmillers radius measurements. it is just under 8" from the hub to the farthest point on the 14" brembo kit.

 

I buy that. Should be around 1" for a fixed caliper and a little more for a sliding caliper. I would still get your own measurements first before declaring success.

 

the idea is to fashion a false hub out of wood withe the radius of the 13" rotor (dont have a rotor) to act as a way to correctly position the caliper. then, will measure each iteration of to see if i can get it to where i need it.

 

length: 11 5/16
width: 6 1/2
height minus mounting lugs: 2 15/16
height w/ mounting lugs: 5 7/16

Brembo Model number: 20.8659.02/20.8658.00

 

hmm, wht 13" rotor to use... i might HAVE to use a 2 piece.

 

Also, keep in mind those pads are tall, so you will need a rotor with a large enough annulus.

 

yep. of course, a lot of these companies don't list the pad height of the rotor.

 

There is some great detail and discussion going on here. However I have a question (Please excuse my lack of understanding)

If I have a Baer 12" 1LE/HD set up and wanted to step up to use either a 1st gen CTS-V or Willwood caliper in a 13" HD rotor , on a 17" wheel is this even possible? or is it just too complicated for a average/above average backyard guy to do? Also is there any performance loss between the two calipers?

Seems like a 5th gen camaro on a 13"HD rotor is out of the question too.

 

Doubtful that that kit will fit behind a 17" RT-S wheel - 18" most probably...

Please don't fall into the "bigger is better" mindset that drives reckless spending with the pro touring crowd (not just brakes).

Keep in mind that a 13" 2 piston brake kit (like a C4 HD or LS1 kit) will give you more braking power than a (typical 3rd gen) 245-50-16 street tire can handle - and then some. Sure the larger kit may have better brake feel and thermal capacity, but it will not stop better without seriously wide and sticky tires.

I personally went with the Wilwood FSL kit in the pic above, for the point of the car not stopping better with a larger, much heavier, more expensive 14" kit.

Now if I were building a mega budget 220mph car would I go for something larger, yes - but that is an easy swap once the time comes.

No reason to bust a big nut for something you don't need - use the difference for something else!

 

The first gen CTS-V and Camaro SS 4 piston calipers are same other than the location of the fluid inlet.

As far as performance differences between the Wilwood FSL and Brembo 4 piston. They are both adequate in design in my opinion. The Brembo is significantly heavier. The Brembo has smaller piston area than the Wilwood. This means the pedal will be shorter and will require a firmer pedal push for the same size rotor and same. Which is better is up to you to decide. How do you like your pedal feel?



17's are no problem radially for a 13" setup. The bigger problem is typically the caliper face to back of wheel spoke clearance. This is where the Wilwood setup works well and the Camaro / CTS-V calipers are worse.

The 13" Wilwood setup even fits 16" IROC wheels.

13" Wilwood setup in 17" CTW wheels.

 

87350IROC - thanks for the illustration & the information. So what your saying is caliper wise there is no gain using the Gen 1 CTS-V caliper over the willwood?

My question is does anyone make brackets for my 12" baer set up where I could run a 13" HD rotor and the FSL calipers and see an improvement over what I have now?

Also does the FSL have good pad availability? like Hawk, or carbotech?

 

 

If those are 17", I sand corrected...

 

i put the ctsv kit with 14inch disc at its night and day on a 2001 camaro, i can imagine how good it would be on a 3rd gen, i have aftermarket wheels so it really helps. i think the best kit for the money is this one i have like 690 in my kit and i have the drilled c6 zo6 rotors in mine, so you should go with the ctsv kit just for the price point itself , spacers and brackets should bring it up but not that much. I am very intrested in seeing somebody take a dive because im building a 87 with an ls1 and i just threw a healthy 595 lift cam in it so i am going to need the braking power.....wilwood too expensive....... you have to have atleast 18 to fit these for sure if you want to fit that 14 caliper and rotor i know that for sure.....but the look of a 18 wheel with a huge rotor and caliper looks so good....

 

Z06 rotors are a no-go with the 4 piston Brembos as the pad height is greater than the rotor annulus height. You will either have pad overhang or underhang. It is best to use the correct Camaro SS rotor.

Ooops. They fit just fine in some 17's. Shown here inside CTW 17" wheels. The biggest issue with this setup is caliper face to back of wheel spoke clearance.

 

Apologies for the delay.

IMO there is minimal performance difference between the two calipers. On the same size rotors, with the same pad compound, the Camaro / CTS-V calipers will require a shorter pedal push with more effort. Whether that is good or bad is up to the user to determine. The Wilwoods are a full 4lbs lighter EACH. That is huge. Pad changes on both are pretty easy but the Wilwoods are slightly easier.

Pads are available from the following companies.

Wilwood
Hawks
AP Racing
Carbotech
Porterfield
Ferodo
Performance Friction
Raybestos

There may be others as well.

I believe the 12" Baer setup is basically a C4HD caliper on a machined down C4HD rotor, does that sound correct?

If so that is a very high effort / small pedal travel kit. Pedal effort will be higher than stock and travel is only about 50% of stock. The Wilwood setup on the other hand uses much larger piston area, so compared to stock, the Wilwood setup requires only 79% of the pedal effort of stock and 76% of the travel.

So comparing what you have now to the Wilwoods, the Wilwoods will require far less pedal effort but with a longer pedal throw (still much shorter than stock). Only you can decide if that sounds good to you. Do you like the feel of the brakes now. There is a small piston area version of the Wilwoods that would get the effort and travel numbers pretty close to the Baer setup.

The larger Wilwood setup would also of course deal with heat load better. Something you may or may not care about. Pads are also huge and last forever.

 

That is correct - at least what Baer has told me.

 

[QUOTE=87350IROC;5582259]Z06 rotors are a no-go with the 4 piston Brembos as the pad height is greater than the rotor annulus height. You will either have pad overhang or underhang. It is best to use the correct Camaro SS rotor.


I have the ctsv zo6 setup front in my 01 camaro why would it be different in third gen unless u guys talking about rear brakes

 

[QUOTE=delicious d;5582486]Its not different. Inspect your brake components a little closer. The pad is taller than the annulus of the Z06 rotor. So you either have overhang, underhang, or both.

 

[QUOTE=87350IROC;5582593]checked it and it does have underhang now i was thinking when doing maintenance can i pull the pads and even out the wear, what would you suggest i should do if i want to keep the rotors, second question is how big are the camaro rotors? Im so surprised that nobody in the ls1tech thread caught the under hang. i appreciate your help

 

No problem. I don't know how it started, but for some reason its "common knowledge" that the Camaro / CTS-V calipers are a fit for the Z06 rotors. I can't believe after all this time I am the only person to ever notice this. I think it started before the '10+ Camaro came out. At that time, the 4 piston calipers were from the '04-07 CTS-V only. That vintage CTS-V is 6 lug. So people started looking for a 5 lug 14" equivalent, which is why they started using the Z06 rotors. From there it became internet fact. Don't get me started on the '10+ Camaro guys swapping '09+ CTS-V calipers. Or the GMHTP article where they put the '09+ CTS-V calipers on their 4th gen with Z06 rotors and 3/8" overhang.

In my opinion there is no good solution to using the Z06 rotors with the Camaro / CTS-V calipers. The best solution would be to mill down the pad so there is no longer an overhang. The better solution would be to use the Camaro SS rotor which is also 14". This may require some shimming and/or machining to fit nicely on a 4th gen. As the rotor offset is slightly different if I remember correctly. It would be easy to calculate, I just don't have the time right now.

John

 

that makes sense because i had that ls1 tech thread saved from a million years ago and there was 28 pages of it......in my third gen i will use the 5th gen rotors

 

Thank you for this information. Very relevant. Yes I was hoping for possibly a little more power through the increased leverage of a 13" rotor, along with decreased pedal pressure sounds really good actually. The hope was I could do this for not a huge investment, just buy HD rotors, willwood calipers, lines, and a bracket without having to add modified spindles which I already have on the correct hub.

Please correct me if my understanding is not entirely right. The main question is does anyone make a bracket ready to bolt on that will work?

Just seems like a more modern light wieght/ 4 piston caliper, with the optimal piston sizing would be worth the upgrade. The Baer 12" C4 package was the best I could buy/afford 9 years ago when I 1st restored my car, now I see there are many better options. Just they need to work with my 17x8 intro GT wheels on 4.5 BS.

 

Yes, the Wilwood FSL + C4HD rotor would require a standard offset hub. So if that is what you have, you would be in good shape. I always get nervous guaranteeing fitment of already modified spindles. Because I don't know who did the modification and how. I use 7/16"-20 fasteners into enlarged stock dust shield holes.

I make the brackets and brake lines. PM if you are interested.







How much clearance do you have?
Enough for another 0.5" between caliper wheel barrel?
Clearance from face of caliper to back of wheel spoke?