Need a carb and fuel system for a turbo setup.
Need a carb and fuel system for a turbo setup.
Any suggestions? I'm totally lost in this area. Can I use my stock pump and just get a regulator or do I need a new pump? Do I have to have a fuel return? I can pull my gas tank and weld some bungholes on it for a different setup. What's a good carb shop that will setup a carb for blowthru and not rip me off? Thanks.
Brad...
Brad...
Supreme Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,111
Likes: 53
From: Ontario, Canada
Car: 1988 Firebird S/E
Engine: 406Ci Vortec SBC
Transmission: TH-350/3500stall
Axle/Gears: 7.5" Auburn 4.10 Posi-Traction
As long as your stock fuel pump can supply the volume of fuel nessessary to feed your turbo motor you can modify it
to work with turbo boost. Find the vent hole on the top of the pump housing. This vents the top of the diaphram to atmispheric pressure. you need to drill and tap a hole to allow you to attach a small pipe fitting so you can connect this vent to the carb hat
or carb enclosure so that the fuel pump sees the same pressure as the carb does.
You can buy a Marine version of a Carter hi flow mechanical pump that already has this fitting built in.
Your Edelbrock carb should be fine for a blow through carb with a few mods that you can do your self.
You need to enrichen up the power circuit.
To tune a turbo setup you want to start out rich. Real rich.
so do this: increase the sec jetting 6-10 sizes.
Increase the primary jetting 4 sizes and change the mettering rod to one with a smaller tip size but a bigger cruise step.
You need extra fuel while under boost but while cruising the carb will act normally. The only other issues are the floats will be acted on by the boost pressure. They may or may not collapse
from the pressure. probabily they will be fine. (unless you're going to run like 25lbs of boost.)
I would install
the high flow needle and seats to maximize fuel flow/lbs of fuel pressure. That leaves only the throttle shaft boost equalization.
They may not leak fuel under boost at all. If your going to use a carb enclosure ya don't have to worry. Other wise with a carb hat
you may have to drill the carb throttle plate and install little fittings to connect (pressurize) the throttle shafts to the carb hat.
But like I said above this may not even be an issue.
Thats about all you need to do .
Start out over rich and tune leaner from there.
You may find some usefull info here:
http://www.vs57.com/carb.htm
to work with turbo boost. Find the vent hole on the top of the pump housing. This vents the top of the diaphram to atmispheric pressure. you need to drill and tap a hole to allow you to attach a small pipe fitting so you can connect this vent to the carb hat
or carb enclosure so that the fuel pump sees the same pressure as the carb does.
You can buy a Marine version of a Carter hi flow mechanical pump that already has this fitting built in.
Your Edelbrock carb should be fine for a blow through carb with a few mods that you can do your self.
You need to enrichen up the power circuit.
To tune a turbo setup you want to start out rich. Real rich.
so do this: increase the sec jetting 6-10 sizes.
Increase the primary jetting 4 sizes and change the mettering rod to one with a smaller tip size but a bigger cruise step.
You need extra fuel while under boost but while cruising the carb will act normally. The only other issues are the floats will be acted on by the boost pressure. They may or may not collapse
from the pressure. probabily they will be fine. (unless you're going to run like 25lbs of boost.)
I would install
the high flow needle and seats to maximize fuel flow/lbs of fuel pressure. That leaves only the throttle shaft boost equalization.
They may not leak fuel under boost at all. If your going to use a carb enclosure ya don't have to worry. Other wise with a carb hat
you may have to drill the carb throttle plate and install little fittings to connect (pressurize) the throttle shafts to the carb hat.
But like I said above this may not even be an issue.
Thats about all you need to do .
Start out over rich and tune leaner from there.
You may find some usefull info here:
http://www.vs57.com/carb.htm
Last edited by F-BIRD'88; Dec 7, 2002 at 05:22 AM.
Supreme Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,111
Likes: 53
From: Ontario, Canada
Car: 1988 Firebird S/E
Engine: 406Ci Vortec SBC
Transmission: TH-350/3500stall
Axle/Gears: 7.5" Auburn 4.10 Posi-Traction
Consider adding a water/ alcohol injection system.
This will greatly reduce detonation and knock while under boost.
It will add some of the nessessary extra fuel needed while under boost. (reduceing the need to enrichen the carb as much.)
It will reduce/ eliminate the need to ignition retard while under boost. It will allow more boost and or higher compression
while on the same octane fuel.
There are vey good computer controlled systems available
but you can build an very effective one, yourself.
Search the net for info.
I would change the cam to a more turbo friendly grind.
Turbo motors like mild cam timing. Let the turbo make the power.
They like low overlap ( wide lobe separation like 114+++
They like either equal intake /ex duration ( simgle pattern)
or less ex duration than intake duration.
Some thing like a 224/214 .465/.442 114 LSA would work well.
Turbo motors like a high stall converter. (lets you spool up the turbo to get max boost off the line.)
This will greatly reduce detonation and knock while under boost.
It will add some of the nessessary extra fuel needed while under boost. (reduceing the need to enrichen the carb as much.)
It will reduce/ eliminate the need to ignition retard while under boost. It will allow more boost and or higher compression
while on the same octane fuel.
There are vey good computer controlled systems available
but you can build an very effective one, yourself.
Search the net for info.
I would change the cam to a more turbo friendly grind.
Turbo motors like mild cam timing. Let the turbo make the power.
They like low overlap ( wide lobe separation like 114+++
They like either equal intake /ex duration ( simgle pattern)
or less ex duration than intake duration.
Some thing like a 224/214 .465/.442 114 LSA would work well.
Turbo motors like a high stall converter. (lets you spool up the turbo to get max boost off the line.)
Last edited by F-BIRD'88; Dec 7, 2002 at 05:36 AM.
So how well would my cam work? Will it work well, good or just plain sh!tty? I really don't feel like changing that out. I know I should, but..... My stall is 2000. And I really haven't got a clue what your talking about on the carb. I'm carb ignorant. I'll have to research that some. Read a book or something. Or at least figure out what parts you are talking about on the carb. I'll break out the Edelbrock carb book when I get home from work. Thanks.
Brad...
Brad...
Supreme Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,111
Likes: 53
From: Ontario, Canada
Car: 1988 Firebird S/E
Engine: 406Ci Vortec SBC
Transmission: TH-350/3500stall
Axle/Gears: 7.5" Auburn 4.10 Posi-Traction
Originally posted by bhaas
So how well would my cam work? Will it work well, good or just plain sh!tty? I really don't feel like changing that out. I know I should, but..... My stall is 2000. And I really haven't got a clue what your talking about on the carb. I'm carb ignorant. I'll have to research that some. Read a book or something. Or at least figure out what parts you are talking about on the carb. I'll break out the Edelbrock carb book when I get home from work. Thanks.
Brad...
So how well would my cam work? Will it work well, good or just plain sh!tty? I really don't feel like changing that out. I know I should, but..... My stall is 2000. And I really haven't got a clue what your talking about on the carb. I'm carb ignorant. I'll have to research that some. Read a book or something. Or at least figure out what parts you are talking about on the carb. I'll break out the Edelbrock carb book when I get home from work. Thanks.
Brad...
any other grind , just different. If you don't want to use a higher stall conveter, use a smaller cam (more low end torque)
the turbo will make the power. A smaller cam is better trust me.
Your cam has too much overlap for a turbo motor. (Slow spoolup)
slow boost response.
With a 2000 stall I would go with 214/210 .442/.440" on 114 lsa
The right cam will make or brake your turbo project.
Too important to ignore.
Check this site out. www.amotion.com
This guy has all the popular lobe designs.
He has "off the shelf" turbo grinds available.
He does custom grinds too.
His cam and lifter sets are top notch and low low priced.
He will ship to your door (postal COD)
He is in Canada so your $US dollar$ will get u a lot.
Comp has turbo grinds too. Call them.
For the carb. You should do some reading. Carbs are not
really hard to understand once a few concepts are understood.
They all work basicly the same.
A turbo carb only needs to be boost referenced and
have the power circuit enricheded. The cruise metering stays basicly the same. The fuel supply system just needs to be boost referenced so it provides fuel pressure that stays ahead of the boost pressure.
Consider getting a "carb box" instead of a carb bonnet.
A carb box fully encloses the carb under boost pressure, solveing all the boost differencial problems.
check out the Vortech and Paxton internet site for a carb box.
It's not really that difficult.
Where can I get that marine style mech. pump at? Why won't my intank pump work? I'll probably change my cam in the future and stall but just want to get this running now and if it sucks then I'll start changing more things and dumping a ton more money into this. This is already costing me a fortune as it is. Where can I find jets and rods for my Edelbrock? I've never seen them anywhere. Summit doesn't have them. Just for Holleys. I've been reading up on bonnets verses the box and it seems everone goes with the bonnets. So I'll probably go with the bonnet. My intank fuel pump was for a 2.8 MPFI motor.
Brad...
Brad...
Supreme Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,111
Likes: 53
From: Ontario, Canada
Car: 1988 Firebird S/E
Engine: 406Ci Vortec SBC
Transmission: TH-350/3500stall
Axle/Gears: 7.5" Auburn 4.10 Posi-Traction
Originally posted by bhaas
Where can I get that marine style mech. pump at? Why won't my intank pump work? I'll probably change my cam in the future and stall but just want to get this running now and if it sucks then I'll start changing more things and dumping a ton more money into this. This is already costing me a fortune as it is. Where can I find jets and rods for my Edelbrock? I've never seen them anywhere. Summit doesn't have them. Just for Holleys. I've been reading up on bonnets verses the box and it seems everone goes with the bonnets. So I'll probably go with the bonnet. My intank fuel pump was for a 2.8 MPFI motor.
Brad...
Where can I get that marine style mech. pump at? Why won't my intank pump work? I'll probably change my cam in the future and stall but just want to get this running now and if it sucks then I'll start changing more things and dumping a ton more money into this. This is already costing me a fortune as it is. Where can I find jets and rods for my Edelbrock? I've never seen them anywhere. Summit doesn't have them. Just for Holleys. I've been reading up on bonnets verses the box and it seems everone goes with the bonnets. So I'll probably go with the bonnet. My intank fuel pump was for a 2.8 MPFI motor.
Brad...
Both will work but the box saves you a lot of headaches.
It does cost more.
Your in tank pump will not increase pressure as boost pressure
increases. (boost referenced) It may have high pressure
while the motor is idleing but will drop as flow increases.
You would need to be able to maintain about 5psi above
manifold pressure (boost) at all times. You pump probabily does not pump enough volume (flow) to feed the motor's needs while under boost.
A hi flowing mechanical pump has more capacity and is relitively easy to boost reference.
The marine one with the fitting already on the upper houseing
is in the Carter (federal Mogul) catalog. You can modify a normal
Hi perf mechanical pump your self. Just plug the air vent on the upper houseing and drill and tap it for a 1/8 threaded pipe.
Then screw a brass fitting into it.
You can buy an electric pump that with a pump controller
or boost referenced regulator, will work but it will cost you a lot more. ( Areomotive, Paxton, ( vortech) (Barry Grant)
Don't you have a chain auto parts store near you like NAPA or PEP Boys? You can order the edelbrock parts from them.
Summit and Jegs do have the carb parts.
Some good Local Performance Shops carry this stuff too.
You're right on the west coast, email (Doug) at Accelerated Motion
www.amotion.com he can set u up with a turbo cam and lifter
set for cheap. (custom grinds are not a problem with him). If I had to pick one or the other between a cam change or a new converter, deffinatly change the cam.
Go smaller, the turbo will make the power. Trust me.
Even a single pattern on 114 LSA would be better.
Don't know what your compression ratio is but you may
need to use water injection to avoid detonation while under boost. Generally for 8#'s of boost on the street you want
8.5:1 or less.
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Well I was gonna use the mech. fuel pump boss for my oil drain on that turbo. But I can move it. I can make a carb box myself. That's not a prob. A box does sound easier and I wouldn't have to mod the carb so much. You don't think my 800 CFM carb is too big? Thanks.
Brad...
Brad...
Supreme Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,111
Likes: 53
From: Ontario, Canada
Car: 1988 Firebird S/E
Engine: 406Ci Vortec SBC
Transmission: TH-350/3500stall
Axle/Gears: 7.5" Auburn 4.10 Posi-Traction
No, the carb is just right. Better to return the turbo oil directly back to the pan.
Last edited by F-BIRD'88; Dec 10, 2002 at 05:15 PM.
Yup. It's going to the pan. I thought it might be easier (well actuall it is) but not too tuff to get it to the pan. I was out looking at it. It'll be no problem. Is the oil suppose to just flow/drain through the turbo or does it need some pressure to drain. I poured some oil into one and it didn't drain out. Put a little bit of air into it and got it to just barely drain. About 20 psi. I don't want to have an oil drain problem and start blowing smoke cause the oil is getting past the bearings.
Brad...
Brad...
Would this fuel pump work good? Here is the Summit part number hly-12-327-11. I see it has a hole on the side for a vent. Is that where I would put my fitting for boost reference? I'm about ready to do a test start then if that goes well it's time to make a box and get some new jets and hangers and a book on carbs. Getting closer to being done. Can't wait. Thanks. Oh ya. What about vacuum for my breaks and tranny? Do I need some kind of checkball so they don't see boost?
Brad...
Brad...
Last edited by bhaas; Dec 11, 2002 at 11:10 AM.
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