Apeiron

I've been looking in some old dealer brochures lately, and I've noticed some interesting things with respect to the availability of the CCC system on Canadian cars.

The 2.8L 2bbl V6 LC1 was not available with CCC.

The 5.0L 4bbl V8 LG4 was non-CCC, with CCC being available at extra cost on Sport Coupes only. It was unavailable on the Berlinetta and Z28.

The 5.0L 4bbl V8 L69 was only available with CCC.

A CCC LG4 will also have RPO <b>NB1 - Emission System, Closed Loop</b>, instead of NM4 - Emission Control, Non Closed Loop (Export). Both of them should also have NM5 - Emission System, Canadian Requirements.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Sticky material.

Thanks for posting that.

Apeiron

Representative vacuum routing diagram for non-CCC LG4s

MonteCarSlow

A friend at work has an 83 Firebird LG4 with CCC (vin H). My wife's 83 T/A does not have CCC (vin H).

Randy82WS7

hey there, on your wifes 83:

if you ever have a chance to, could you please post the vertically stamped numbers on the carb body/casting

and also the distributor stamping numbers too ??


i want to know just to know for personal codes/numbers learning/records keeping

that would be freaking awesome thanks!

ur7x

iTrader: (2)

I'll have to dig up the documentation and dealer order sheets for my 1983 Z28... Mine was factory ordered and I'm pretty sure that the CCC system could be ordered on all LG4 cars that came to Canada though very few were optioned that way.

I remember the salesman talking about it... and talking us out of this option...

ur7x

iTrader: (2)

I dug out my old Canadian Dealer books and
The CCC option WAS avalible on all LG4 engines in Canada in 1982 and 1983 (PRO code NBI) it was an extra cost option, did not increase performance and was rarely (if ever) ordered

skyhigh4by

iTrader: (1)

My 85 T/A bone stock 305 non CCC w/700R4. Atleast I dont think its CCC the only wire to the carb is for the choke. What appearance differences are there between the two? Distributer?

3rdgenrookie

Hate to sound stupid but what is the ccc system? I have an 85 z28 original 305 4bl and looking to rebuild the stock carb. Is the ccc system something I have to worry about?

Chaseder13

Hey I have a 92 camaro rs with a 350 crate motor. I'm worried about trying to pass emissions with it is there anything I should check or look for? Or do?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Do you have a carb, or is it still TBI?

ur7x

iTrader: (2)

In Canada the rules vary province by province. For example In most places in Canada you can legally remove the Cat on any car MY 1987 and older... 1988 and newer cars must have a cat (in the States it is a Federal crime to remove ANY cat... not so in Canada)

Which province are you in? How do they test... some are visual, some do a tail pipe sniff.. some are government run some are private testing agencies... Some are on a dyno/treadmill some are only an idle test. Some will base your emissions "line in the sand" based on the engine that the car cam with... Some will base it based on the new engine... etc etc etc.

Z28 MeTaL HeAd

Where do you get your information from?

In just about every major province in Canada, it's against the law to remove ANY emissions equipment including the Catalytic Converter NO MATTER WHAT the year of the vehicle is!

Simply put, if your vehicle came equipped with it from the factory, it HAS to stay there otherwise you are subject to some very heavy fines.

For example in Ontario, removal of your cat is a $380 offense. Same as removing your EGR, same as removing the AIR pump. $380 for EACH offense. Even an open-element air cleaner is an emissions violation here.

85Fbirdnub

In alberta theres no current E-Testing at all, the only time it would come into play is if you were trying to bring a vehicle into the province, and the cat or EGR was removed, it would technically fail the OPI

farm-kid/88camaro

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/environment...8201.html#1999

Check this link out for Hot Rod Status rules in Ontario.

Motor replaced pre-1999

Requirements
1.Vehicle cannot operate if there are visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any five-minute period (s. 3(1) and s.6)
2.For Drive Clean testing (if applicable), the vehicle is deemed to be a 1980 model year and must meet or exceed the standards set for “1980 and earlier” model-year vehicles (s. 1(2))
3.Catalytic converter and emission control equipment requirements do not apply to hot rods altered prior to January 1, 1999 (s. 4(2)). However, be mindful that without emissions control equipment functioning, the vehicle could fail the Drive Clean test.

Motor replaced post January 1,1999

Requirements
1.Vehicle cannot legally operate if there are visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any five-minute period (s. 3(1) and s.6)
2.For Drive Clean testing, the vehicle must meet or exceed what were the emissions standards of the original motor when all original emission control equipment was functioning (s. 4(2)). If there weren’t any standards established for the original motor, the vehicle is deemed to be a 1980 model. The standards listed for “1980 and earlier” model-year vehicles apply.
3.All emissions control equipment must be attached and functioning. Equipment refers to what came with the replacement motor or be equivalent to what would have come with that motor. (s. 4(2))

skinny z

Wow! What an interesting read.
So if I understand this correctly, my 86 Camaro, which had an engine swap done prior to 1999, to an engine that was not available as an option ( a 350 from a 70's era truck), does not have to have a catalytic convertor.
Who knew?!

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

How can the government prove if an engine swap was done before or after 1999?
Mine was done in 2002 or so, but what's to stop me from saying it was done in 1998?

skinny z

Like anything that happens in court, you would have to provide evidence that documents that the swap was done at a certain time. Without it, it's just your word and that doesn't count for jack when you're talking to the judge.
Been there. Done that.

ur7x

iTrader: (2)

That might be the case in Ontario, there is no such law in BC, or Alberta, or Nova Scotia. There is NO Federal law in Canada that preserves Cats like there is in the States.

I know of lots of cars (and trucks) in BC that sale trough government run emissions testing without cats, or AIR pumps or EGR... with zero fines and zero issues. I know, I own a couple... as long as they are older than 1988 in BC and Alberta you will be fine, in Nova Scotia the threshold is MY1990 for whatever reason

bygddy

Hey, I'm the new guy, and not here to ruffle any feathers, but the places we gather in the summer get hit alot with emmisions garbage, roadside checks etc. So i bought my 85 TA last weekend, actually off a member here, and it has zero emmisions equipment, so I read the exact page you quoted. And yet guys I know have been hugely fined, and plates pulled for cat removal etc. And their cars clearly fall under "hot rod" status. So i called the ministry, the dude I talked to said that while it may be exempt, and a hot rod, it must have all equipment that it came with in 85, and here is the misconception, it must ALSO have whatever came with that year motor that was swapped. He said no matter how I read it, or interprited it, if I got pulled over, as the car sits now, I'm screwed. And he was very upfront that they make and interprit the rule book.
This isn't to say they know exactly what comes on the car, so a dummy egr valve, with hoses etc that looks functional, a pcv valve, a charcoal canister that has hoses routed, but plugged internally, a 3" dynomax bullet, the 12" long version looks exactly like their high flow cat. And in my case, an emmison sticker, the factory ones that show belt routing and timing etc, from a 1985 cutlass that was optioned without a smog pump, then brought to my sticker shop to have "olds" doctered out and "Pontiac" in place of it, then installed on the car. They will not dispute what looks like a factory sticker indicating no smog pump, and are not allowed to touch or test the functionality of the rest of the equipment unless its visably a gross poluter......sooo.....of course, all of this is highly illegal and immoral and i wouldn't dream of partaking in anything so shady........

_milhouse_

so what this is saying, is that I cant rip all that stuff out of my car (well I can and just take it to my buddies shop for inspections, and pray not to get caught) and install a straight simple 383 carbed engine?
That, to use the proper vernacular, blows, gentlemen.

bygddy

So after not being happy with the first answer, I called again, and again lol...and if you read it right, if the car is considered a hot rod, and the motor was installed pre 99, then you don't require any emmisions equipment. So they suggested I email, which I did, everyday since I posted last lol. They finally answered me last week with the holy grail of emails, they clearly stated in big bold letters, that if the motor was installed pre 99, I required no emmisions equipment, and they went on to list cats, egr etc...they suggested I have a receipt in the car showing the motor install in 98, and a copy of the email, and a print out of the online page that also states this. Kind of a "get out of jail free" card. I asked him what sort of receipt I needed, and he said it wouldn't matter, as long as it stated something like " billy bobs garage, installed 350ci engine into so and so's 85 trans am for x number of dollars" and that would suffice....

_milhouse_

interesting... that makes for a nice little loop hole actually...

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

Wow, really cool!
Would you be willing to post up that email?

skinny z

This precisiely why I'm pursuing this here in Ontario.
I have all the documents needed and I would like the opportunity to present this to a MTO/Drive Clean officer.
Of course, if I'm not forced into through a roadside inspoection, I'd "let sleeping dogs lie".
If you can produce THAT e-mail, then that's another part of the documentation puzzle.

bygddy

Here is one of 2, the second being him answering me about carrying this mail and related paperwork in my car. Need to find that one. And this is from my tablet, on my home computer the emmisions equipment he mentions is in bold lol.


Hi DavidYou are correct that your vehicle would be considered a hotrod and as such the following requirements for your vehicle are applicable:* must meet the visible emission standards (No visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in a 5 minute period)* the catalytic converter requirements do not apply* the emission control equipment requirements do not apply* must meet the emissions standards for 1980 and earlier model year vehicles if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test.If you are inspected and asked by a provincial officer to have a Drive Clean Test completed you would be required to meet the 1980 and earlier standards.If you happen to fail the Drive Clean Test (which is unlikely, unless your vehicle is not properly tuned/maintained) you would not be able to operate the vehicle until such time that the vehicle is able to meet the 1980 and earlier emission standard. This may require having the vehicle tuned (check timing etc.) completing general maintenance (oil change etc.) and or replacing emission equipment (PCV, etc). If the vehicle still fails the test (which again is very unlikely and if it does fail you probably have some major engine issues) you may have to incorporate emissions equipment until such time that it passes the test (meets the 1980 and earlier standard).You could also bring your vehicle to a Drive Clean Facility and they could test it for you. (They may be reluctant as it is not a normal practice to test vehicles that do not require a test, but if they are you can call the Drive Clean Contact Centre at 1-888-758-2999 and they will help you make arrangements for a test).I hope this helpsRick LalondeSupervisorMinistry of the EnvironmentSector Compliance Branch305 Milner Avenue, Suite 1000,Scarborough, Ontario M1B 3V4

bygddy

Not sure why it shows up in a big block like that? As i just copied and pasted, but I suspect its my stpd tablet. Anyways, u get the gist of it lol

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

This may interest some of my fellow Ontario drivers:

http://www.scrapdriveclean.ca/

skinny z

This document is now with my other paperwork supporting my "hot rod" status. I don't wish to be pulled over in a roadside check however if I am, I'll have something to work with.

TwoStrokeDan

My 86 5.0 LG4 is a Canadian model that came from the factory without an ECM, just a mechanical QJet carb and vacuum advanced distributor.
It seems to drive well enough after I rebuilt the carb.
It is less fuel efficient than an ECM model and probably makes a bit less power, but it's very simple, there are no sensors, wires, or anything.