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CarburetorsCarb discussion and questions. Upgrading your Third Gen's carburetor, swapping TBI to carburetor, or TPI to carburetor? Need LG4 or H.O. info? Post it here.
Has anyone ever bought a carb kit from Cliff’s High performance? I did and I feel I got ripped off. Cliff Ruggles who runs the business is supposed to be a quadrajet guru according to quadrajet fans on the internet so I got suckered into buying his book which convinced me to buy a kit from him since he trash talks the commonly available kits and parts on the market in it. He charged me almost $100 for the kit he sold me and it didn’t include the idle enrichment tubes he said it would, nor did it include any throttle shaft bushings or screws like the pictures of the deluxe kits on his website show. Now I have to call him and deal with his cocky, condescending attitude, and I doubt I’ll get any satisfaction because my experience with know-it-all characters like Cliff is they would rather lose a customer than admit they made a mistake. I hate making posts like this, but I'm really frustrated with this situation.
I’m beginning to hate quadrajets anyway. If they’re set up and adjusted perfectly for your engine then they are the best carb you’ll ever own, but if they aren’t then they are a big nightmare because your engine will never run right. There’s got to be some carb that's easier to deal with, and something made this century instead of over four decades ago.
Haven't bought anything, but I talked to Cliff on the phone a few years ago when I thought there was a problem with my Quadrajet (turns out there wasn't).
All this guy did was talk and not listen. A real motormouth. Sounded very arrogant. Won't even touch a remanufactured carb. Also said he's semi-retired.
Looks to me like he just wants people to buy his book. I"m sure he knows a lot about Q-jets, but he was of no help to me...
I bought a carb for my 78 Trans Am from him way back when he was still doing rebuilds. Now he just sells the kits and will give technical advice. He was the qjet guru 20 years ago but I don't know anything about the quality of his kits. Before I sent my qjet to Mountain Man for a rebuild, I was looking at his kits and the ones from quadrajetpower.com. I decided to buy from quadrajetpower and their kit was great. I didn't use it since I decided to send my carb for rebuild but now I have it if I ever need it.
If you want something that's not 50 year old technology, go with efi. I've heard from plenty of folks that said the same thing you are saying about hating the carb and they said going efi was the best thing they ever did.
Maybe things have changed but I had good experiences with him. Mind you the last time was probably a decade ago. I'd still use his methods on anything that has a qjet on it. Honestly anything that doesn't I'd go efi since it's so readily available now.
I can't say I blame him for not wanting to touch a "reman" carb.
I've seen ones with mismatched jets, random rods, casting pieces that aren't from the same application, overlooked damage from wrecks or ham-handed "mechanics", wear in unexpected places, corroded or porous or otherwise compromised casting metal, and so on. If you JUST THINK for a minute about the process of INDUSTRIAL carb rebuild, NOT just ONE guy sitting at ONE bench with ONE carb working on THAT ONE from start to finish before starting on the next ONE, it becomes instantly obvious. So some random d00d brings him some random "carb" that's really just a random collection of random carb parts, and expects him to turn it into an actual CARB? Yeah right. How many parts is he going to have to replace? What sort of "improvement" or "adaptation" has been done to the castings? How THE HELL is he supposed to know, or figure out, all that, and then GUARANTEE it so it doesn't damage his reputation? I won't do it either.
Now, selling a "kit" that comes with a list or photo or parts blowup or whatever of what's supposed to come in it, and it doesn't, and he blows off the customer that wants it set straight, that's a different matter altogether. That can't be excused. I wasn't aware he was getting that crusty in his old age.
I've been working on model 4M Q-Jets since ... well, a long time ago. And the carbs that came before them as well such as the 2G, 4G, Holley 4150 & 4160, Carter AFB & AVS, and so on. I think they're among the best carbs ever made, within their intended usage; which is NOT all-out heads-up street racing (who can make theirs the "fastest" without any rules or boundaries). The E4M electronic version is ... deliberately crippled ... in this particular area. What it DOES offer is probably the best fuel economy of any carb ever made, and vastly reduced cylinder wear (what we all used to attribute to the Powerglide) compared to what happens to an otherwise equal engine with, say, a 2G. EFI has made the contribution of carb design to engine wear STUNNINGLY obvious: gotta be one of the reasons LS motors go 2 - 3 times as long as typical 70s motors before needing their cyls bored, for example. 70s engines with Q-Jets get considerably longer bore life than otherwise identical engines with a 2G, L48 vs the various 305 or 350 2-bbls for example, which can only be attributed to their bores not getting constantly washed down with excess fuel especially when cold. Butt hay, the Q-Jet, or ANY carb for that matter, isn't for everybody; some people don't want to study up on museum pieces and try to restore COMPLETELY worn out crap, some want all-out speed, and so on. To each his own. Doesn't make the thing itself "bad", just, maybe not suited to the purpose at hand.
You're right, Sofa. My biggest gripe was just that the guy did nothing but talk about himself for a half an hour, and he would have continued longer but I had to get back to work...
I called Cliff and he said he would send the idle tubes if I thought I needed them. Apparently his kits don't include throttle shaft bushings like I thought they did. You'd think for a $95 kit he could have included them. Even in his book he talks about the importance of rebushing the throttle shafts on quadrajets so you don't have unmetered air entering thru the worn throttle shaft bores.
EFI probably is better from a lot of perspectives, but it's also incredibly complex and depends on a bunch of sensors that can go bad, not to mention the dozens of components that make up the computer. EFI is better if you buy a car that has a functioning fuel system with it, not a car like I bought that had its TBI harness butchered up to do a shoddy carb conversion. Trying to piece together an EFI system from scratch is a nightmare.
Shaft bush is a separate thing, not every carb needs a shaft bush. his deluxe kits come w/ bolts. Best kits you can buy. My mechanic even commented how nice his kits are.
if you don’t like cliffs kitts , then get the Nara rebuild kit. You’ll see the diff.
Shaft bush is a separate thing, not every carb needs a shaft bush. his deluxe kits come w/ bolts. Best kits you can buy. My mechanic even commented how nice his kits are.
if you don’t like cliffs mitts, get the Nara rebuild kit. You’ll see the diff.
May be not every quadrajet needs to be bushed, but almost every one does from wear caused by the steel throttle shaft constantly rotating in the softer aluminum casting for however many decades the car the carb was in was driven. Cliff Ruggles in his book thinks every quadrajet should be bushed as part of a proper rebuild. as I mentioned above.
I have spoken with Cliff numerous times over the past ~15 years. Has always been cordial, responsive and helpful to me. The last Q-Jet I setup he even threw in a set of custom machined metering rods.
Haven't bought anything, but I talked to Cliff on the phone a few years ago when I thought there was a problem with my Quadrajet (turns out there wasn't).
All this guy did was talk and not listen. A real motormouth. Sounded very arrogant. Won't even touch a remanufactured carb. Also said he's semi-retired.
Looks to me like he just wants people to buy his book. I"m sure he knows a lot about Q-jets, but he was of no help to me...
I absolutely do not blame him on not touching a mass rebuilt carb. Throw them away and get one that has not been hacked up and completely ruined by a mass rebuilder.
I bought a carb for my 78 Trans Am from him way back when he was still doing rebuilds. Now he just sells the kits and will give technical advice. He was the qjet guru 20 years ago but I don't know anything about the quality of his kits. Before I sent my qjet to Mountain Man for a rebuild, I was looking at his kits and the ones from quadrajetpower.com. I decided to buy from quadrajetpower and their kit was great. I didn't use it since I decided to send my carb for rebuild but now I have it if I ever need it.
If you want something that's not 50 year old technology, go with efi. I've heard from plenty of folks that said the same thing you are saying about hating the carb and they said going efi was the best thing they ever did.
The only way to do EFI is factory electronics. I ran a Proflo4 setup and it was absolute trash atleast ECM and tuning wise. Swapped a GM 0411 in its place and swapped out the injectors Edelbrock supplied that neither Edelbrock or Magnetti Marelli have proper injector data for to GM 50#s that do have good data. My modified L31 ran better on the nearly stock L31 van tune than the GARBAGE Proflow4 ECM ever ran.
Really sensors don't go bad all that often.
EFI can be better sometimes, but JMO the naysayers are often just luddites who refuse to learn something new because supposedly nothing was wrong with the old way.
Sometimes newer actually is better, sometimes not.
Carry on......
Originally Posted by taguy16
EFI probably is better from a lot of perspectives, but it's also incredibly complex and depends on a bunch of sensors that can go bad, not to mention the dozens of components that make up the computer. EFI is better if you buy a car that has a functioning fuel system with it, not a car like I bought that had its TBI harness butchered up to do a shoddy carb conversion. Trying to piece together an EFI system from scratch is a nightmare.
I joined Cliff's forum, and when I posted a question I was told to buy Cliff's book. It took me something like a month to be approved to join the forum, so it was a big disappointment.
I called Cliff and he said he would send the idle tubes if I thought I needed them. Apparently his kits don't include throttle shaft bushings like I thought they did. You'd think for a $95 kit he could have included them.
...
Personally I would always brush the shafts. Air leaking through the shafts does not go through the venturi to help meter fuel into the mixture. It also affects the idle air bypass calibration.
I only ever bushed the drivers side as the rest seem good enough. Using the hobby store tubing is cheap and easy if you have a drill press and a rod to align the bore with.
I bought and read Cliff Ruggles book "How To Rebuild And Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors". I found it to be very through and helpful. I bought one of Cliff's carb rebuild kits and was pleased with the kit. I do not recall how much I paid, but is was no where near $100.00.
Moreover, Cliff answered my texts and phone calls, providing good advise.
I bought and read Cliff Ruggles book "How To Rebuild And Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors". I found it to be very through and helpful. I bought one of Cliff's carb rebuild kits and was pleased with the kit. I do not recall how much I paid, but is was no where near $100.00.
Moreover, Cliff answered my texts and phone calls, providing good advise.
Maybe the tariffs raised the price of his kits because mine cost $95 plus shipping. I don't know if you're trying to make me out to be a liar or what the point of your statement about your kit's cost is: if that's the case, I don't appreciate it.
I thought the book was way over priced for what it is. He goes into too much detail on the history and all the minute differences of quadrajets over the years. Most people that buy books like his just want to know how to rebuild and/or modify a quadrajet. The modifying section is very tedious and he skips over a few details to be able to make sense of some of what he's describing. I suppose some people might be able to make sense of that, but a lot of people probably just throw up their hands and either send their quadrajet to Cliff to be redone, or decide it's not worth the trouble messing with one of these over-engineered carburetors.
To each his own, I guess. I bought a kit from him with a couple of extras and it was right at a hundred bucks a few years ago. We talked for a good while and he did seem pretty proud of himself. LOL
The book is just okay. He throws in a few examples to get you started but the only way to really know how to tune a Quadrajet is to dig in and play. It's not too bad in the end but it sure is a trip getting there. Especially for Holley guys ...
I bought and read Cliff Ruggles book "How To Rebuild And Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors". I found it to be very through and helpful. I bought one of Cliff's carb rebuild kits and was pleased with the kit. I do not recall how much I paid, but is was no where near $100.00.
Moreover, Cliff answered my texts and phone calls, providing good advise.
Originally Posted by taguy16
Maybe the tariffs raised the price of his kits because mine cost $95 plus shipping. I don't know if you're trying to make me out to be a liar or what the point of your statement about your kit's cost is: if that's the case, I don't appreciate it.
I thought the book was way over priced for what it is. He goes into too much detail on the history and all the minute differences of quadrajets over the years. Most people that buy books like his just want to know how to rebuild and/or modify a quadrajet. The modifying section is very tedious and he skips over a few details to be able to make sense of some of what he's describing. I suppose some people might be able to make sense of that, but a lot of people probably just throw up their hands and either send their quadrajet to Cliff to be redone, or decide it's not worth the trouble messing with one of these over-engineered carburetors.
Are you kidding me? I did not even mention you, only MY experience with Cliff . I am a liar because I stated I paid less than $ 100.00 for my car kit? Maybe my kit was different? Not all Quadrajets use the same rebuild kit. maybe mine had less parts. Or it was on sale.
The latest update on this thread is that in the process of putting the carb back together I found out I never got a needle and seat with this high dollar kit from Cliffs. I had to buy them at the local Bumper to Bumper for over $14 (thank goodness someone in this little town had them). I tried calling Cliff several times and just got his answering machine, which I left messages on and got no response whatsoever.
I don't even know what to set the float level at because I never got any information on this, and I can't find any listed for this quadrajet number online (not that I would want to use the stock setting because they are usually pretty low and don't leave much fuel in the bowl to allow for what this carb might need to work properly and for evaporation).
I've heard a lot of good things about Quadrajet guru Lars Grimsrud...
Lars posts on one of the Corvette forums. I've read some of his posts and they seem thought provoking, such as when he posted that he only bushes throttle shafts when they are so bad that they bind up the throttle blades. I don't know if I agree with that. I figure if you have the carb apart already and the throttle shafts have play in them you might as well bush them so they don't get to the point where they bind up the throttle blades in the future, which would require another teardown. It's one of those "do the job right the first time" deals.
Have spoken to Cliff on a few occasions, always treated me right and offered good advice.
I believe he’s done and heard it all on Qjets, or at least as much as any other. Our “import” Canadian M4MEs are a bit of a one off for him, but nothing that caused an issue.
Im running his “1st” recipe on an LG4 with a 204/214 cam, performer intake & headers. It does everything I could ask of it, with a rebuild kit sourced from a third party. Yes bushed throttle shaft, but that’s my current issue, throttle is binding after 2/3 years of very light use.
