1986 Camaro, 305 4bbl qjet, 170,000 miles (never rebuilt), gutted cat...
check engine light started coming on every now and then about three months ago...5 days ago choke light would not go off and the car pulled alot of volts (but the battery kept charging) and idled high...i cleaned the carb with spray cleaner and used fuel additive (i thought there might be a build-up) but nothing changed...two days later when first cranking the car it was missing and barely ran...this might not be smart but i unplugged a wire that plugs into the front top part of the q-jet and tried to start the car...it would not start and hasn't since...obviously i have not worked on a carb before, but any advice would be appreciated...could it be the o2 sensor that started all of these problems? or is it possibly the choke? someone thought it might be the alternator (and it might still be some of the problems) because it was pulling too many volts...where do i start to get it running again??

 

choke, i dont know how to fix it, but im sure edmaher knows, he helped me out with my choke problem.

daniel

 

Eh Top front is the MC solenoid, The car should still Start W/o this.

Was it blue ?


It will also run but in PE mode all the time, full Rich.

Also, The Choke Light doubles As a Short warning light, If I recall correctly.

You may have an intermittant short someplace, that would explain the Volatage pull, The rough running and missing possibly, and If the short is present Now, The Failure to start.

When You say it wont sart, does it even crank ?




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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

 

MC solenoid?...i unplugged this once before and cranked the car and it stopped pulling volts but still idled high and the check enginge light came on and the choke light stayed on...this time though it wouldn't start and still hasn't...yes the plug is blue :-)...PE mode?...the car will only turn over, it will not crank, it acts like it's not firing...??

 

dailydriver, are you familar with the "Choke-Heater Relay"? I had a similar problem with my car, and this relay had bit the dust, along with the throttle-kicker relay. I'm just taking a moderately-educated guess at this, but with the chokeheater relay not working, the choke won't open very well and the car will inherently idle high; with the throttle kicker relay not working, the car will run really crappy at idle (at least it did when this happened to me) Just a thought.

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DR Stevens
Car #1:
1984 TA L69 H.O.
750 cfm Q-Jet reman. by Holley, 700R4 /w/ Superior shiftkit, 3.42 lim.slip, 4whl disc, underdrive pulleys, Accel HEI, experimental dual snorkel /w/ hood louver, some sort of weird 3" exhaust soon to be replaced
Car #2:
'91 Firebird/Formula LO3
all stock except K&N air filter (but not for long!!)

 

Sounds like you have one propblem that is whacking eveyrthing else.
8t4 might be one to something with the choke relay, as causing the choke to not fully open, thus fouling the **** out of your plugs, and now your no start condition.
It's really hard to debug this, you've let things go on for so long i don't even know where to start. I can guarantee you one thing though, your O2 sensor is not causing your no start, and had nothing to do with your choke light coming on. If i have time i'll try to get back to this later.
...ed

 

You say it turns over, but dosent crank.

how does that work?

ill wait Till ed gets too it, and see if I cancome upwith anything. thisgayspacebaronthecomputeratschooldosent****ingwork...



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60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver

Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype

 

I'm about to get out of work, and prolly won't be around tonight, but i'll try to help you start it at least. The bug i'm chasing here is the choke relay like 84 said.
To run you need 2 things, fuel and spark. First check for fuel. Take off your air cleaner and look into the primaries (front holes) on the carb (note, you may have to hold the choke plates open.) Now work the throttle by hand. Did you see 2 little streams shoot into the primaries? Good, you have fuel.
Now go ahead and pull a spark plug. Is it really black/carboned up. If so, you're gonna want to change all your plugs so you can rule out that they're too funked up to fire.
Hopefully thats your biggest problem at the moment. If they look clean Then this problem will get much deeper and near impossible to troubleshoot through a computer.
Once it fires, the choke plates over the primaries should gradually open. Make sure the connection (wire) is on (it's the thing sticking out on the pass. side of the carb.)
if it doesn't gradually open, you have an electrical gremlin not heating your choke, most likely the relay if your alternator is OK. Or the choke itself is bad, but since this is accompanied by your choke light being on, seems like that isn't your problem.
hope that gets you started...ed

ps...and for god's sake, don't unplug things on your carb unless you know why you're doing it. Unplugging any sensor/actuator connections ot the ECM will not help you debug anything, and may cause more harm than good (serious advice, sounds like you unplugged the MCS, causing you to run grossly overrich, thereby compounding the problem with your choke, completely fouling things out. Not meant as a flame, just a direct heads up.)

 

I just remembered something, not that I want to contradict Ed on not disconnecting stuff from the carb...
When I started troubleshooting my choke, first thing I did was disconnect the power off the choke right at the carb. The light went out, buzzer stopped buzzing. Then I just went thru the schematic in my *wonderfully illustrated* Haynes manual and it led me to the choke relay.
Another thought, check the C-H fuse in the upper right corner of the fuse panel and see if it's blown.


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DR Stevens
Car #1:
1984 TA L69 H.O.
750 cfm Q-Jet reman. by Holley, 700R4 /w/ Superior shiftkit, 3.42 lim.slip, 4whl disc, underdrive pulleys, Accel HEI, experimental dual snorkel /w/ hood louver, some sort of weird 3" exhaust soon to be replaced
Car #2:
'91 Firebird/Formula LO3
all stock except K&N air filter (but not for long!!)

 

Oh yeah, disconnecting the choke would help you there, i was talking about disconnecting computer stuff from the carb, which is basically akin to dumping gas in your engine with a funnel, which if his choke wasn't opening would lead to a horribly fouled engine that didn't run.
..ed

 

Heh heh, been there, done that. A new rookie that worked for my tranny mechanic broke my M/C connector when he put the airbowl back on in a hurry; he must have "ring-tossed" it on there to do that....hello smokey exhaust, bye bye Accel spark plugs.

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DR Stevens
Car #1:
1984 TA L69 H.O.
750 cfm Q-Jet reman. by Holley, 700R4 /w/ Superior shiftkit, 3.42 lim.slip, 4whl disc, underdrive pulleys, Accel HEI, experimental dual snorkel /w/ hood louver, some sort of weird 3" exhaust soon to be replaced
Car #2:
'91 Firebird/Formula LO3
all stock except K&N air filter (but not for long!!)

 

thanks for all of the advice...i'm on 12 hour shifts right now but tomorrow after work i'll start replacing plugs...here's another thought: the engine has been smoking really bad when i first crank it in the morning...then it clears up after the car warms up...i thought it might have been the valve seals BUT it doesn't use ANY oil...when the weather is warmer it's not as bad...could it have been the "choke heater" all along?...just a thought...i'm embarassed to admit to neglecting my camaro this bad, especially with this many miles on it :-(
from now on it will be maintained properly!

 

i just replaced all of the plugs and it started!!!...they were alll black and corroded...the choke light is on and the engine is smoking and missing...can't work on it until friday, but then i'll watch the choke and see if it opens gradually, if not then it's possibly the choke relay, right??...thanks again for the info

 

Right.
In the meantime, if you 'need' to dirve it, you can wire the choke open (or if the adjustment rivets are gone, you van loosen it and wind it off) you'll want to let it warm up for a few extra minutes w/o the choke though.
As for where to go next, i don't have any wiring diagrams in front of me, but the choke light has two purposes...warns you that your charging system is failing (which if it has been doing this for a while and your battery still works it's prolly not.) or your choke circuit is messed up. Maybe 84 or someone else canb jump in before i get home.
I'm glad your no start was caused by the plugs being *** fouled though. If that wasn't the problem then figuring this out via then net was gonna get ugly.
...ed

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Ed Maher - Moderator @ The Carb Board
92 Z28 Convertible - Quasar blue / Tan top
LB9 4L60 GU2 G80 - stock, soon to be sleeper
-=ICON Motorsports=-

- Definitely prototypes, high powered mutants of some kind. Too weird to live, too cool to die

 

Hmmm...this happened to my buddy's '85 with an LG4. What he did from this point was to inspect the O2 sensor. This may or may not play a large role in this situation, but if this has never been replaced, spend the $40 for a new one just to eliminate variables. I'd do a compression check (or have one done) to see if anything's leakin' in there, and if that turns out ok then attack that carb.
What happened on my buddy's carb was those torx screws in the top came loose with age, and the thing was just pissing fuel everywhere it wasn't supposed to be and the whole mixture got fouled up. If you've got over 100,000 on your carb then either rebuild or replace it, it's probably about due.
Also what i'd do just for more clues is to diagnose the computer and see what trouble codes flash at you. Whether the codes that flash are from awhile ago or recent, they can sometimes point you in the right direction. At least in my experiences.

------------------
DR Stevens
Car #1:
1984 TA L69 H.O.
750 cfm Q-Jet reman. by Holley, 700R4 /w/ Superior shiftkit, 3.42 lim.slip, 4whl disc, underdrive pulleys, Accel HEI, experimental dual snorkel /w/ hood louver, some sort of weird 3" exhaust soon to be replaced
Car #2:
'91 Firebird/Formula LO3
all stock except K&N air filter (but not for long!!)

 

Oh yeah, keep in mind that maybe your M/C solenoid got jammed at full rich somewhere in all of this.

------------------
DR Stevens
Car #1:
1984 TA L69 H.O.
750 cfm Q-Jet reman. by Holley, 700R4 /w/ Superior shiftkit, 3.42 lim.slip, 4whl disc, underdrive pulleys, Accel HEI, experimental dual snorkel /w/ hood louver, some sort of weird 3" exhaust soon to be replaced
Car #2:
'91 Firebird/Formula LO3
all stock except K&N air filter (but not for long!!)

 

i ran a computer diagnosis and here is what it flashed and the diagnosis according to my Haynes repair manual:
13 oxygen sensor circuit...check for sticking or misadjusted throttle position sensor...replace O2 sensor

23 MC solenoid circuit...check wiring @ mc sensor...clear ECM and re-diagnose after driving (i cleared it but can't drive it because it's missing too bad, but i did let it run for awhile...i rechecked computer but no codes showed-up)

53 EGR control error...egr valve and vacuum lines to valve and solenoid


By the way, the choke light is still on and the car is still pulling too many volts...the engine is also missing and smoking (dark grey smoke)

well, i guess i'll start with an O2 sensor even though i have already bought a choke thermostat...

 

Well, if you're EGR is not working right or has never been replaced that'll mess it up some. I'd take the EGR off the manifold and look to see if it's jammed up with carbon & chit. Code 23 may have been set when you pulled the connector. See what replacing the O2 & the EGR does, you may want to put that choke thermo on too, then go from there.
Also inspect the wiring on these units and make sure they're still insulated and check for cracked or broken connector pins.

------------------
DR Stevens
Car #1:
1984 TA L69 H.O.
750 cfm Q-Jet reman. by Holley, 700R4 /w/ Superior shiftkit, 3.42 lim.slip, 4whl disc, underdrive pulleys, Accel HEI, experimental dual snorkel /w/ hood louver, some sort of weird 3" exhaust soon to be replaced
partial emissions delete
Car #2:
'91 Firebird/Formula LO3
K&N air filter Hypertech Thermomaster Chip
more in the near future

 

this is a wild one...i took my alternator and had it tested and it wasn't putting out ANYTHING...i replaced it and it solved my problem!??!?...the choke is openning all the way after warm-up, the volts are back up, and the choke light is off...

 

Hey, great. If we had gone any further, we probably could have re-engineered the 305 to run without an alternator!! Good job.
I had a Dodge D50 with the Me-so-bitchy 2.0 as my first vehicle, it had an intermittent alt problem that did something similar-but the stupid dash light never came on even though it had a good bulb, and there I was for two weeks looking for a short-circuit!! Stupid rice burner.

------------------
DR Stevens
Car #1:
1984 TA L69 H.O.
750 cfm Q-Jet reman. by Holley
700R4/Superior shift-kit
3.42 lim.slip
4whl disc
underdrive pulleys
Accel HEI Super-Coil
experimental dual snorkel /w/ hood louver some sort of weird 3" exhaust soon to be replaced
partial emissions delete
Car #2:
'91 Firebird/Formula LO3
K&N air filter
Hypertech Thermomaster Chip
more in the near future

 

and the good news is i bought a re-mfg from a friend of the families here locally for $30.00...it is identical to
my old alternator and they will replace it free if there's a problem...by the way, "five7kid" answered my first posting and told me to check my alternator first!!??!...thanks five7kid...thanks to everyone else who gave input on my problem