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DFI and ECMDiscuss all aspects of DFI (Digital Fuel Injection), ECMs (Electronic Control Module), scanners, and diagnostic equipment. Fine tune your Third Gen computer system for top performance.
Hi All
This is my first post here so hello to all from sunny Australia. Background
About a year ago I picked up an 84 Corvette ( I guess you guys call them Y bodies amongst other things.) Anyway it has been a bit of a journey so far. You can read about it here if you are interested. http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...e-journey.html What do I have? Crane Cams Hydraulic Flat Tappet Z-256-2 Edelbrock Cylinder Heads Alloy E-Street ED5089 Comp Cams Roller Rockers High Energy Alloy 1.6 Ratio Renegade Intake Manifold Pacemaker Long Pipe Headers Primary Pipes 1 3/4 “ Collector 3" DUI Distributor with Dyna-Mod Exhaust 2 1/4" Cat Delete AIR Pump Delete EGR Valve Delete Original Throttle bodies Original injectors with series plumbing 13psi of fuel pressure and new pump.
Cam Card Below
Head Data Below
So to the questions I have recently bought a EBL Flash II ECM and I am in the early stages of configuring a bin file. I have Tuner Pro RT and have been editing the TB4 bin file, I haven't made many changes at this stage, I have many edited the file to cater for the Doug Nash 4+3. I realise that I will have to step through the process and do VE learns etc. (I don't have a WB O2 sensor so it will just be NB at this stage). I have been told that the SA tables out of an 89 Corvette would be better in my application; so my question is do the people here agree with that statement and if so what bin file would I fine those tables in? Next I have been told that the SA latency tables out of the 3006 bin would be better in my application but again I would like to validate this. I have a Davis DUI distributor with the Dyna-Mod module installed, would the 3006 SA latency table be suitable for this distributor? I'm not really sure what this table does, I believe that the Dyna-Mod has a bit more dwell angle that a standard GM module so I don't know how that interacts with this table? I am also told that you can improve the fuel supply from the standard injectors by altering the pulse width again if someone could confirm that this is appropriate in my case and if so how to do it that would be great? Lastly I am a bit late to the crossfire party so I am sure many people have done similar engine mods to me over the years; if any one has bin files or tables they are willing to share for a 64cc alloy headed L83 with a cam somewhere around a crane 2030 - 2040 I would really appreciate the help.
Sorry there are so many questions in this post and thanks for reading. Regards Greg
The latency is the delay in the ignition module. It is between the time the pickup coil triggers the module and the module sends a reference pulse to the ECM. The latency table is used to adjust for this, good thread on it:
Be sure to set the SA - Initial SA value in the BIN to the same as the distributor base timing. You mentioned changing the physical base in your thread.
As for SA table values, there is the 3006 BIN, it is based on the AXCN y-body TPI BIN.
Can also make several BINs and load them into different banks. Then switch between them while out for a T&T.
The latency is the delay in the ignition module. It is between the time the pickup coil triggers the module and the module sends a reference pulse to the ECM. The latency table is used to adjust for this, good thread on it:
Be sure to set the SA - Initial SA value in the BIN to the same as the distributor base timing. You mentioned changing the physical base in your thread.
As for SA table values, there is the 3006 BIN, it is based on the AXCN y-body TPI BIN.
Can also make several BINs and load them into different banks. Then switch between them while out for a T&T.
RBob.
Thanks Bob I’ll take your advice and try a couple of different bins. It looks like the 3006 will be a good start for me, I have a 4+3 is there any additional tweaking you could suggest?
i have set my base timing in the bin file to 8deg which from memory is where I set it. I will check with a timing light today before I get started.
Hi all
I installed the EBL Flash II ECM today. This was easier said than done. Because this car has been RHD converted some things have been relocated. Anyway let’s just say it was a challenge.
So on the upside the car started right up after the install. There is a long road of tuning ahead of me now but at least I’ve started.
For anyone interested I started with the TB4 bin file supplied with the EBL. That bin file is for a TBI 305 Camaro with a small diameter distributor. I made some minimal changes to the bin file and the car started and ran. I then swapped out the SA tables with the ones from the 3006 bin file which is for an 88 TPI corvette. I’ve made some other small changes to configure the TCC parameters to handle the 4+3 OD (provided by Rbob) and disabled the IAT (I don’t have one).
Tomorrow I will start doing some VE learns and see how I go. If anyone has any tuning parameters they think might be helpful please let me know. I don’t have a WB O2 sensor so it will all be with the NB O2 sensor for the time being. The WB will have to wait for the dyno.
If you can afford a WB I would install it now. It will make the tuning alot easier.
Yeah I’ve been thinking about it. It’s just a bit of a pita to weld a bung in to the exhaust. Also you wouldn’t believe how difficult it is to get the ECM in and out. It was relocated when the car was converted to right hand drive and I don’t think any consideration was given to future maintenance (that’s the nicest way to say it. If I said what I really thought I’d be hearing from the moderator 😂😂😂😂
Ok I have made quite a bit of progress with tuning this car and when it's warm it runs pretty well.
I am running the 3006 SA and latency tables and I have done a number of VE learns and then manuly smoothed the tables so the charts look similar to those in the EBL documentation. I do not have a WB O2 sensor yet so I am a little limited in what I can achieve but the plan is to have it running nicely for the moment.
I have an issue where the car runs like a pig first thing the morning. It starts straight up and idles nicely then when I set off it misses and backfires for about 2km even when it is in closed loop. After about 2km it runs really well accelerates smoothly and or hard it required. The funny thing is in the evening with about the same ambient tempurature and the engine cold it doesn't play up at all.
I did a data log this morning but I can't really see whats wrong. I was thinking that the engine might be too rich but the INT and BLM are set at 128 in open loop and the target AFR is 14.7
Any help would be appreciated. I can post the log file or my bin if required. Surly there is someone out there who has done a similar build to mine and would be prepared to share there bin or parts of it.
Regards Greg
Hi All
Update on my last post. I spoke to a friend of mine who has a very fast crossfire 84 corvette (12s flat). He also has a renegade intake and he suspects that I need to enrich it for cold starts. He thinks that the cold metal of the runners is causing fuel to drop out of the AF suspension. This explains why it smells fuelly but could be actually running lean. It also explains why the condition seams to be tied to oil temp rather than water temp.
So the new question is how do I enrich the engine for these cold starts? I assume I use the AE tables and I’m guessing that it’s the AE-CTS table that I need to modify. The multipliers seen rather large so I wonder how much I should change them, if indeed that is the table I should edit?
Just to recap the car starts first pop hot or cold and idles smooth again in hot or cold conditions with a hot or cold engine. First start of the day the car runs terrible for the first mile or two then comes good at this time the oil temp is about 70 Deg C so the intake is probably sufficiently warm by that time. After this the car runs great and accelerates though the rev range without hesitation or flat spots.
Regards Greg
Oh well no responses that's a shame. So I have worked out the cold start issue with the help of my friend, so I figure I'll post it in case anyone is ever looking for a solution for a similar problem. It turns out there is a choke table with AFR vs CTS, from what I can tell this table is in effect while the choke logic is active and subtracts the value from the AFR target. I have added 0.4 to the colder values and the car now runs much better after a cold start.
In fact the car is running quite decently now, my VE table seem ok and they will have to do until I get a WB O2 sensor installed. I also got an SA latency table from Buccaneer which appears to be working much better that the one from the 3006 bin file. (I have a Davis DUI distributor)
So on to the next questions.
The Digital Dash is not calculating average or instantaneous MPG. It is calculation distance to empty but I don't know if that's an ECM thing or calculated directly on the dashboard. I don't have a copy of the bin file in front of me currently but I have set the digital dash bit in word 3 (I think) I have also set the PPH of one of the injectors in two locations one for the dash and one for the WUD. But it still doesn't work, am I missing a setting?
Also I have the Doug Nash 4+3 and obviously want the OD to work. I have set the TCC setting as per instructed by Rbob but I wonder if there is anything else. From what I can tell it looks like if TCC is set then NV is not used so how does the ECM know what gear the car is in? Currently WUD shows 0 for selected gear. Also I'm using a HAM board to convert my old harness for the EBL Flash ECM, the old ECM has a 2nd gear and forth gear input, the 2nd gear input is used as the 4th gear input on automatic cars so maybe i need to do some wiring changes.
The Digital Dash is not calculating average or instantaneous MPG. It is calculation distance to empty but I don't know if that's an ECM thing or calculated directly on the dashboard. I don't have a copy of the bin file in front of me currently but I have set the digital dash bit in word 3 (I think) I have also set the PPH of one of the injectors in two locations one for the dash and one for the WUD. But it still doesn't work, am I missing a setting?
This flag is to be set:
Option Word 3 - Bit 7 - DglDh
Then this parameter for the injector flow rate:
DGD - Injector Flow Scalar
I thought that the DIC worked on the '84 cars. But maybe not, I do know that it doesn't work on the '82 cars. If I could get the proper data stream it could be coded up. This is the real issue.
Also I have the Doug Nash 4+3 and obviously want the OD to work. I have set the TCC setting as per instructed by Rbob but I wonder if there is anything else. From what I can tell it looks like if TCC is set then NV is not used so how does the ECM know what gear the car is in? Currently WUD shows 0 for selected gear. Also I'm using a HAM board to convert my old harness for the EBL Flash ECM, the old ECM has a 2nd gear and forth gear input, the 2nd gear input is used as the 4th gear input on automatic cars so maybe i need to do some wiring changes.
For the 4+3 OD, it uses the TCC logic. Which causes the ECM to bypass the gear in use logic. The ECM will always use gear 0. Which only affects the PE SA adder table. The SA reduction vs MPH and when in 4th gear (automatic) are still operational.
There is a jumper/strap on the HAM board for the 4th gear input. It should be strapped for 4th gear input on White-22. This should allow for OD once in 4th gear. Part of the problem is how things a really wired. I have 3 sets of '84 ECM drawings, and all three are different from each other.
The TCC indicator on the WUD along with the gear indicator (set WUD for Auto), should show the status of OD.
I thought that the DIC worked on the '84 cars. But maybe not, I do know that it doesn't work on the '82 cars. If I could get the proper data stream it could be coded up. This is the real issue.
For the 4+3 OD, it uses the TCC logic. Which causes the ECM to bypass the gear in use logic. The ECM will always use gear 0. Which only affects the PE SA adder table. The SA reduction vs MPH and when in 4th gear (automatic) are still operational.
There is a jumper/strap on the HAM board for the 4th gear input. It should be strapped for 4th gear input on White-22. This should allow for OD once in 4th gear. Part of the problem is how things a really wired. I have 3 sets of '84 ECM drawings, and all three are different from each other.
The TCC indicator on the WUD along with the gear indicator (set WUD for Auto), should show the status of OD.
RBob.
Thanks for your reply Bob
Yeah it looks like I have the Dash parameters set correctly. The dash in the 84 cars is essentially the same as the 85-89 dash so it should work because I'm sure I have read that it works for others. I think there is some communication via the data stream because the upshift indicator lights up when I hit the right revs. I don't know what else to do here, could I do a packet capture (well not really a packet) on the ALDL pin or is there some way of seeing the data stream in the EBL?
I talked to Tom today he told me there was a jumper on the board for 4+3 cars so I figured that it moved connectivity from Bk6 to W22. Interesting about the wiring I was trusting the FSM. Looks like all my TCC setting are ok, I will test it this morning now I have confirmed what conditions initiate an OD condition.
OK I have reconfirmed all my settings and they look ok but the issues remain.
So just to clarify
With regard to my digital dash. I don't get any average or instantaneous mpg but I do get range and the upshift indication when I hit my shift light limit. I have a Corvette digital cluster book by Gordon Killebrew and according to that there is a data stream so I don't know why I am not getting get mpg info. I wonder if my pulse per mile setting is wrong I have it set to 2002 but I read that 84 Corvettes use 4004. I think my WUD is showing MPH correctly so I don't think this is wrong but I am clutching at straws a bit here.
Here are my Dash settings.
Option Word 3 - Bit 7 - DglDh flag set
Then this parameter for the injector flow rate:
DGD - Injector Flow Scalar set to 64.9
With regard to running a 4+3 with the EBL Flash II. I have set up the TCC to engage the OD as per Rbob's instructions but it is not working.
My set up is as follows:
Scalars:
TCC - Lock Enable CTS: -40
TCC - Forced Lock: 255
TCC - LoGr Max TPS% Coast Unlock: 0
TCC - LoGr MPH OK to Lock: 255
TCC - LoGr Min TPS% Coast Unlock: 0
TCC - LoGr MPH to Unlock: 255
TCC - HiGr Max TPS% Coast Unlock: 0
TCC - HiGr MPH OK to Lock: 44 (use to set minimum MPH/KPH for OD)
TCC - HiGr Min TPS% Coast Unlock: 0
TCC - HiGr MPH to Unlock: 45 (use to set minimum MPH/KPH for OD)
Flags:
"Option Word 2 - Bit 7 - TCC " option to be checked (set)
"Option Word 2 - Bit 5 - HiGrH" option to be checked (set)
"Option Word 2 - Bit 2 - DcTCC" option to be un-checked (clear)
"Option Word 3 - Bit 3 - TccHi" option to be un-checked (clear)
Tables:
TCC - TPS% Opening/Closing Delta for Unlock: 100%
TCC - Relock Delays: 0's
TCC - LoGr TPS% to Stay Unlocked: 0's
TCC - LoGr TPS% to Unlock: 0's
TCC - HiGr TPS% to Stay Unlocked: variable (use to set OD exit on heavy throttle)
TCC - HiGr TPS% to Unlock: variable (use to set OD exit on heavy throttle)
Note: the last two tables above set the TPS% threshold where OD is exited.
Be sure to retain the "TCC - HiGr TPS% to Stay Unlocked" table lower then the other table.(it is)
Zeroed out this table:
SA - TCC Locked Retard
So you can see from the settings above that the TCC should lock at above 44mph when the car is in 4th gear (HiGrH).
Some one on the corvette forum suggested that I needed to de-pin the blue and white wire to get the OD to work. Looking at my FSM the only Blue and White wire is in terminal White-23 and labeled "Cold Start Module". In the electrical trouble shooting supplement it shows that wire being connected to the "Vehicle Elapsed Time Sensor Module". I'm using a HAM board but I'm not sure if that wire is connected through to something different on the EBL. I've marked up my FSM in pencil with where I think the connections go.
So this leads me to a new set of questions about the wiring between the EBL and the existing wiring harness especially when using a HAM board.
Does jumper JP2 select whether C7 connects to the Black connector terminal 6 (Bk6) or the White terminal 22 (W22)?
Is AIR Diverter Solenoid Bk16 connected to C1?
Is AIR Switch Solenoid Bk14 connected to C2?
Is anything connected to Dual Injector select W6 and if so what?
Is anything connected to Cold Start Module W23 and if so what?
Is B9 on the HAM connected to any of the edge connectors and if so which one?
Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for the help.
"Option Word 2 - Bit 5 - HiGrH" option to be un-checked (clear)
In '84 the 4th gear switch closes to ground when in 4th. GM changed the OD control darn near every year they made them.
Yes, it should be strapped 2-3 for W22
Yes, it is used for PE Mode active. Can be used for various items. See drawings on our web site.
Yes, it is used for electric fan control.It is on strap JP1.
No connection.
No connection.
No connection.
RBob.
Thanks Bob
I have spoken to another 84 owner who says his digital dash works so I am at a loss there. My dash is out of an 85 or 86 corvette but it did work previously with the original 1226430 ECM.
Last edited by GregMartin; 06-19-2019 at 08:33 AM.
The engine in my 82 Z-28 is very similar. I got it running reasonably well so I started focusing on other parts of the car. I'm hoping to get back into tuning this summer. I'll be interested to see how you do. I can't remember what BIN I started with, but I don't think it has enough timing. AFR is fine, but motor seems sluggish at lower RPMs.
The engine in my 82 Z-28 is very similar. I got it running reasonably well so I started focusing on other parts of the car. I'm hoping to get back into tuning this summer. I'll be interested to see how you do. I can't remember what BIN I started with, but I don't think it has enough timing. AFR is fine, but motor seems sluggish at lower RPMs.
I’ve just received my WB O2 sensor so I’m looking forward to putting that in and doing some decent VE learns. I have the large distributor and Buccaneer sent me his SA latency table witch improved the car quite a lot. I think I’m running the SA main table from the 3006 bin. My timing seems ok but my fuel map is rubbish at the moment.
Oh, on your fuel pressure question, I'm probably not wording this correctly, but as you tune the VE table, pulse width is calculated and adjusted by the computer. I don't think you need to do anything other than tune VE.
Also, I'm running Vette injectors and my engine needed more fuel. I'm running18psi of fuel pressure vs the 14 stock.
Oh, on your fuel pressure question, I'm probably not wording this correctly, but as you tune the VE table, pulse width is calculated and adjusted by the computer. I don't think you need to do anything other than tune VE.
Also, I'm running Vette injectors and my engine needed more fuel. I'm running18psi of fuel pressure vs the 14 stock.
When you say Corvette injectors do you mean 65# / 61# set (I think that’s what they are, I know they are different)?
Correct. The Camaro 305 injectors are smaller. I upgraded to the bigger Vette injectors when I swapped in the 350.
You will not notice you need more fuel until you start tuning in the higher RPM ranges or for wide open throttle (WOT). Watch your injector duty cycle. People say don't exceed 85% to build in a safety margin. If you are exceeding that, then bump the fuel pressure up. That;s how I wound up at 18 PSI. My engine peaks around 87% on the top end.
Correct. The Camaro 305 injectors are smaller. I upgraded to the bigger Vette injectors when I swapped in the 350.
You will not notice you need more fuel until you start tuning in the higher RPM ranges or for wide open throttle (WOT). Watch your injector duty cycle. People say don't exceed 85% to build in a safety margin. If you are exceeding that, then bump the fuel pressure up. That;s how I wound up at 18 PSI. My engine peaks around 87% on the top end.
Note that when you bump the fuel pressure, you have to retune all of the lower RPMs. Feels like a never ending cycle sometimes. Change one thing, retune everything.
Correct. The Camaro 305 injectors are smaller. I upgraded to the bigger Vette injectors when I swapped in the 350.
You will not notice you need more fuel until you start tuning in the higher RPM ranges or for wide open throttle (WOT). Watch your injector duty cycle. People say don't exceed 85% to build in a safety margin. If you are exceeding that, then bump the fuel pressure up. That;s how I wound up at 18 PSI. My engine peaks around 87% on the top end.
Note that when you bump the fuel pressure, you have to retune all of the lower RPMs. Feels like a never ending cycle sometimes. Change one thing, retune everything.
Thanks for the tips. I expect this to be a long journey but I really like the crossfires arrangement and with modern heads and cam profile I’d like to think that 300hp is a reasonable and achievable number. It’s a bit of a rabbit hole though. I’m not hung up on big horse power and if I was I would have started from a more powerful base. At this stage I’m hoping not to have to go with parallel plumbing bored out throttle bodies and 80# injectors but everything seams to leading me in that direction.
Sounds like we have similar goals. My ultimate goal is 300 RWHP with the current combo but will probably need a cam change to make it. I went way conservative on the cam when I started the build with a stock ECM.
Sounds like we have similar goals. My ultimate goal is 300 RWHP with the current combo but will probably need a cam change to make it. I went way conservative on the cam when I started the build with a stock ECM.
Yeah I chose a cam that would work with the ECM, and the Edelbrock E Street heads. I think I could have gone bigger but I reckon it will do the job. The car needs to be drivable not a fire snorting monster.
Hi All
Thought I’d drop you all a line to let you know that I have now installed a WB O2 controller. I purchased a LC-2 and it seams to work ok. I did about six VE learns and all went well. I was surprised however when I looked at the results because they weren’t a whole lot different to the tables I created with the NB and a bit of patience. It has changed values and it is a very smooth chart but I expected something different. Am I doing something wrong? Should I be doing it in open loop or something.
WB based VE Learns need to be done in open loop. This is so the fuel trims don't take affect. Set the closed loop CTS threshold high. Can use the WUD VE display to see the coverage.
WB based VE Learns need to be done in open loop. This is so the fuel trims don't take affect. Set the closed loop CTS threshold high. Can use the WUD VE display to see the coverage.
RBob.
Thanks Bob
is there any thing else that needs to be set? I recall something about setting the BLM to 128 but no sure if that’s required or where to set it?
Just a quick note to update you all on my progress.
I forced the ECM into open loop and did about six VE learns, now the car is running very nicely. Thank you to all who have helped and offered advice. I know that no two engines are the same but if anyone has a similar setup to mine and would like a copy of my data just PM me and I’ll share what I have. I plan on doing some dyno runs in the near future and I will post the results.
Last edited by GregMartin; 07-10-2019 at 08:01 AM.
06-08-2019, 02:50 AM
