Hello everyone...I was a member here for many years under a different name...around 2000-2010 probably. I have an 89 IROC that I built around that time and it's never run quite right and has now sat for years as I got into different vehicles. I'm now looking to upgrade the computer system in my car to finally dial it in properly. I've read up a bit on the current available systems but would love to hear some opinions based on my actual setup.
Engine is a 383 with AFR 195 heads, SuperRam with Edelbrock base, 30lbs SVO injectors, large CompCam that I don't remember specs on anymore, 58mm throttle body and AFPR, stock distributor. I'm running a 700R4 still and car has mechanical speedo. Car is originally a MAF setup and I think that's part of my tuning issue with the cam. Converting to speed density with one of the newer setups I'm sure will help.

I'm looking for good driveability but don't need to squeeze every last ounce of horsepower out of the car. I know converting to coil on plug is a thing now but is that necessary for my goals? Probably not. What standalone ECM setup will operate my trans lockup, allow my stock gauges to work, and be tuneable enough for a professional tuner to do their thing with?

I'm capable of installing the system myself, repinning any connectors, etc so that is of no major concern. I will however have someone else do the tuning.

If you have a similar combo or educated explanation of a particular system of choice I'd love to hear it. Thanks in advance.

 

Just curious who tuned your 165 ?

 

2 different members from this board who had tuned several other cars many years ago. One was in PA and was supposed to be "the guy" but i can't remember his name 20 years later now and another member named Jon who is local to me.

 

Might throw a wideband gauge on it and retuneor just datalog. Or look into fitech or Holley stand alone if you’re wanting a different ecm. Haltech has a new replacement ecm as well.

 

Yeah I've been reading up on the FITech as well as Terminator X setups. Just hoping to hear some real world experience from guys with similar setups or those who have tuned them.

 

me id install an 0411 and tune it with hptuners like an LS..

 

Does the 0411 require things like a Vortec distributor, crank trigger, etc?

 

There are possibly two FiTech tuners I have ever heard of. Holley is vastly more popular by comparison, probably double the price compared to FiTech Ultimate TPI but has more flexibility as well.

Ease of access to tuning is the biggest draw for aftermarket ecms though. If you aren't doing the tuning, it would be more cost effective to get a better tune for your current ecm.

 

I have a FItech on a 76 bronco. It came w it when i bought it. Its interface is pretty lame. It runs OK, i need to spend more time adjusting it. I have a proflow XT on my trans am. It is hands down far better. The tuning interface is far better, it ran better after the first start up and prior to dyno tuning. The XT has a tpi/ls looking front mount throttle body and fits under the stock hood well. The edelbrock pro flow tune-ability is awesome. I had the proflow on a 450 hp/tq setup and it was awesome. Now its managing the same engine w a blower and again its awesome. The tuning was easy. I have 2-3 more months in me w messing w the fitech and then im gonna pull it and swap over to a pro flow on the bronco.

there are modern systems that work awesome. The edelbrock pro flow systems work really well as do the holley systems. The guys that tuned my trans am felt like tune-ability of the edelbrock and holley systems are great and fitech was a step down from them. This was coming from a guy that worked for fitech for quite a while.

 

Thanks for the insight. This is the type of answer I'm looking for. Wasn't even aware of the Edelbrock system so now I will read up on it.
Not that cost isn't a factor but I just want it to run right when I'm finished. I'm going to approach whichever manufacturer I choose about possible sponsorship anyway. This car was sponsored by Year One and Dynamat when I originally built it and I've been lucky enough to get sponsorship on most of my other personal cars and bikes since.

 

I'm running a holley terminator on my 91 305 TPI. I really like it
I also run holley on just about everything in my shop due to the ease of use and troubleshooting

0411 swap is viable IF and only IF you have experience with HPT. It's not the easiest program to learn
When using an OEM box, you need to spoof the controller to think it's running some form of original loadout, from the 4x/1x crank trigger L31's from 01-02 express vans, to 24x/1x LS setups. These can still be retrofitted to any V8, but you have to have core knowledge of the system and know what to take direct and what needs to be fudged

Most aftermarket systems from Holley to Fitech are designed around the user interface first, so they're easier to get into vs the OEM boxes. Just keep in mind these are all entry level EFI systems, so they have limitations and rough edges

 

Thanks. Like I said I'm just looking for it to run well all around in a street setting. Not looking for every last hp. Realistically the car will see 1,000 miles a year at most....I just want them to be enjoyable ones with a good idle, smooth throttle response, and good power when I get into it. Fuel efficiency is of no concern as long as it's running well and hitting target AF values to not foul plugs or cause detonation.

I just looked at the Edelbrock Pro Flo and that won't be in the running....didn't realize it was a comolete intake setup. I'm planning to keep the Super Ram.

 

Pocket which Terminator setup are you running? Did a cursory look and couldn't figure out which will work with a cable throttle and if one will work the lockup function if my 700R4. I know certain kits require additional parts or switches for a 700R4 to interface.

 

With the Holley, you don't even need to worry about a crank trigger if you don't want to. They can use distributors that include the basics and are more plug and play. Just need a controller box and specific coil.

 

Does anyone know what the applications are for the newer haltech? Will it do 90-92? I see the old platinum was for 86-89
https://jmautosports.com/products/haltech-platinum-sport-direct-plug-in-gm-kit-ht-051100?variant=41267523813463

 

I'm running a basic terminator X. All holley systems have DBC as a base. DBW is X max and dominator supported, but not required

I posted relevant diagrams and setting for controlling the 700R4 in my holley build thread. As long as your trans has a 4th gear switch, then it's simply one input, one output and one universal relay. No special parts

Correct. There are many strategies from original HEI distributor to hyperspark dist to dual sync to crank trigger available to holley. I utilized a simple crank trigger to take advantage of 8x LS coils

Based on their description and pictures, I'd say no to 90-92 V6/TPI. The appeal of that box is to reuse the original harness. Since most on here are in tatters, it often makes more sense to replace with newer aftermarket
If you're dead set on using that box, then I'd recommend sourcing an 88-89 TPI harness and doing the minor tweaks to be compatible with 90-92 cars

 

How's the tunability on that Haltec box? I wonder if that's a viable option for my needs. My 89 harness is still completely original....never modified and in good shape unless mice have gotten to it the past year. Does it operate off MAF or SD? I'm going to do more reading on some of these options tonight while I'm at work hopefully. I appreciate all the info so far. This car was my pride and joy from the time I was 16 until probably my early 30s. Then I built myself a 34 Ford pickup hotrod that has been my primary cruiser for shoes and pleasure but I want to revive my IROC now.

 

Hasn't that older Haltec been discontinued for years?

 

Haltec are releasing a newer version next month that takes it's place
https://www.haltech.com/product/ht-2...-ecu-gm-delco/

 

I love the Holley HP. I would personally would run the eficonnection 24x ring with their 1x cam sync and a vortec plastic timing cover. Fit an ls harness to the engine but change the location of the crank sensor connector and likely change the iac tps ends to the tpi style i believe. Theres some work to it but it can work. That way you get sequential coil packs and get rid of pesky distributors and ignition modules
you certainly can keep distributor, i believe holley made kits for that.

the 0411 hp tuners is good if you have a shop that can tune them, but would need to retrofit the ls engine harness to your engine. Its abit of work too and i have done this and it works great but in the end i regretted it and should have went Holley or similar aftermarket. But my engines have progressed and evolved so i needed capability.

 

If your tuner is familiar with Tuner Studios and you'd like a hands on experience with your ecu, then I'd highly suggest looking into a Speeduino ecu. Kind of a goofy name but theyre amazing setups. You can get everything from plug and play units all the way down to buying a board and soldering the whole deal together. I started out with one of their ecu's that was fairly basic akin to a microsquirt with the ignition running wasted spark and the injectors running batch fire. But I've recently upgraded to one that runs sequential injection, 3 bar map sensor, provisioned for a wideband O2 sensor etc.. Basically it's as fully featured as any of holley or edelbrocks engine controllers. The paid version of Tuner Studios even has a "self tuning" option like alot of the bigger name efi kits advertise. If you buy the board pre-built without an enclosure and a breakout board for your wiring you'll spend around $200. Then it's just a matter of getting a box that it can live in and attaching your wiring to that breakout board. Tuning hardware consists of a type 1 (I think) USB cable same as what a printer uses. Anyway hope this helps

 

So does the EFIConnection piece presses onto the crank snout? Only downside I see is that there's probably only room for a single roller chain?

It's definitely the more cost-effective way to do it. Holley's SBC "compatible" crank trigger setup was outrageously-priced, if they even offer it anymore.

 

EFIConnection's crank trigger is based on the 96-99 SBC setup. It's a plastic timing cover, keyed slip on reluctor and machined balancer to sandwich it in

Holley had D/C their SBC crank trigger as of last summer when I made my own. I chiseled a LS reluctor off a junk crank and welded it to the SBC crank pulley. Fabbed a simple bracket to hold a LS sensor. Simple

 

Good solution. The Holley piece was far from bolt-on to begin with. At least the custom route was probably affordable.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...ml#post6564056
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...ml#post6564790

Pics of the crank trigger if you're interested

Hate to hijack a thread, but the basic process can be applied to literally any engine and almost any ECM

 

The GM ECMs and PCMs are better by far than the aftermarket JUNK. Personally I would use a P01 or P59 with a 24x reluctor and Vortec distributor base for the 1x cam sync. Run the extremely reliable LS coil near plug ignition while you are there. I do most of my tuning on those now with Open Source and TunerProRT. EFIConnection offers their reluctor trigger inexpensively and Holley has an aluminum timing cover with the L31 crank sensor provision they sell inexpensively as well that actually seals to the older engines. The only revision to run the L31 style reluctor is that you need a balancer that has 0.110" trimmed off the snout and clears the timing cover.

 

I'm considering purchasing the ProFlo 4 XT with the ECM tuner complete setup for my '87 Formula and wondering if it would fit under the stock hood. As I'm reading your post and it sounds like it will fit under the hood and sounds like you're very happy with the system.

I currently have the MR intake with the Dynamic EFI EBL system and have been considering the Edelbrock with sequential fire system might be a better choice as I've heard how easy it is to tune.

Is there any chance you have a picture?

Thx, Tom

 

Heres some pics of the XT. The center hood brace was notched to eliminate any rubbing on the high point of the TB. I feel like that may or may not need to be done depending in engine mounts and trans mounts. The xt has been awesome. It was great prior to the blower and w minimal work/tuning its flawless w the blower.

 

Thx, I appreciate the pictures!

 

Doing a LOT of tuning with HPTuners and some Holley (as needed for myself and friends only) I have learned a lot of general details that will help guide you through your search.

1) The BEST driving cars are hands down tuned on a factory PCM. Also, once set up on a factory setup, parts are easy to find at any local parts store or junkyard.

2) Use a ECM/PCM that is been out a while and has a large aftermarket support. I have tried messing with so many systems that are no longer supported and it is a HUGE mess. People buy a setup at a deal, the project gets put on hold, then by the time they get it running, it is on a system that is no longer even in business! The old FAST EFI, Sniper 1s, Accel, old Edelbrock EFI add-on injectors. The list goes on and on. In reality I guess you never really know which systems will stay around, but OE and Holley have such a large following they will be around a long time.

3) Your setup is pretty simple. I had a similar setup in my iroc many years ago. A very basic chip ( I realize I should of done much more tuning now) had me running fine for years! I would try again with your current setup with a new tuner before making the large jump to changing everything IMO.

I tune HPTuners everyday, so know it like the back of my hand, but Holley is "easier" to get acquainted with if coming in with no tuning experience.

 

Thx, I'm currently using Dynamic FI ECM and it works pretty good. My one issue is and from what I hear most complaints about air distribution with the MR intake at low speeds. The car runs great but the back 4 plugs all are running rich. With the SRam intake I don't have this issues, but the MRam is just kills it where HP in concerned. That's why I've been thinking about a newer more advanced system. I see the Edelbrock comes with a distributor and can run with sequential fire the injectors. I looked into the Holley last year but to do it right with the Holley I would need a crank trigger, individual coils and basically makes it just too expensive. I've also heard the Edelbrock system is very easy to use.
I've not heard that the HP system could be used with the older OBD 1 ECM's. Is that something new?

 

How does the Edelbrock system run sequential? I couldn't find a mention of where they are getting cam / crank signal.

 

The edelbrock has a hall effec/trigger in their distributer. You can also put it in LS mode and run coil packs, but its a bit of a process to do.
before the blower my rear 4 plugs were slightly more rich. It ran awesome but there was that difference. All these intakes do that to a degree. It doesn't do that after dyno tuning w the blower now. The cool part of the edelbrock stuff is the sensors have a cross reference to standard GM parts. So most parts can be purchased at an auto parts store if you have the part no.

 

Thx for the info. I kind of had a feeling that this style intake along with HSR and MRam would have a similar issues with air distribution at low speeds. The big *** cam I've got probably doesn't help much either. 😂

 

I went with he terminator X with Dual sync distributor.

Seems to be working great so far.

 

First thing to do with the Edelbrock system is throw the ECM, Injectors, Harness and Distributor it comes with away or just buy the intake manifold without electronics. Then use a GM P01/P59 with a 24x reluctor, Vortec 1x distributor for the cam signal and run LS coil near plug. Buy better injectors with good GM data. Their ECM is pure garbage with the extremely limited tuning you can do to it. At one point GMPP was selling some of their crate engines with that junk setup on it too. Never will understand why since GM was also building 350s and HT383 engines for marine use using their far superior MEFI5/6 ECMs (E67 PCM with custom code) at the same time. I literally cannot stress enough how crappy the PF4 ECM and electronics are or how poorly they run! A P59 with a factory 2005 L31 calibration with only the MAF disabled for speed density and injector data changed ran far better.

 

yeah, in disagree w most of this. The old pro flo stuff the gm re branded was really lame. That was also a while ago. The gm version was almost not adjustable/minimally adjustable per gm, thats not hoe the edelbrock setups are. The modern pro flow ecms are much better and tunability us far superior to the gm version and even the older pro flow 3 (currently on PF4). As I said, you can run them in LS mode and run coil near plug if you want. The harness is specifically expandable for this. Ill agree the injectors are a so-so quality. I had mine flow tested and they were all w in 5% of each other so I am using them. Ive been really happy w it on my blower setup. There is no problem tuning the newer ones. The adjustability is far superior to numerous other systems.

 

The old chip based system was far superior. The PF4 both GM and Edelbrock version is straight trash. The factory GM P01/P59 controllers are fantastic. The MEFI5/6 used in marine engines were far superior to the PF4 as well. The older Proflow was far superior. On the older Proflow, you could tune the VE table, spark advance, and dial it in exactly the way it needed to be via TunerProRT and a chip burner. You could change anything you needed to in the hex code. The new system is absolute garbage as there is no way to edit the absolute crap calibration maps they installed. You cannot even give the engine vacuum advance at idle. You can also not give the engine enough pumpshot to keep it from backfiring out of the throttle body on a quick WOT stab. It also liked to stall unless you warmed it up for 4-5 minutes on a cold start before shifting into gear. You can run it in LS mode but that does not change the fact the system is controlled by an un-editable POS with a few garbage base maps to choose from. Forget about it having a stable idle in a GM vehicle with a cycing clutch ac system as well. For any other engine management system the injectors are trash because neither Edelbrock or Magnetti Marelli have good GM injector data available for them. As I said above stock L31 tune in a P59 ran my extremely mild L31 engine far better on the startup tune file. Once it was dialed in it runs just like any modern GM. Bump the key and it is alive, shift into Reverse and the Park/Neutral switch signals the PCM to increase the IAC maintaining a smooth idle without stalling. Turn on the A/C, the PCM increases the IAC without fits of surging or stalling. Since I wired in an ac pressure transducer, the P59 triggers the electric fans as needed with A/C pressure. When I am rolling 45+ mph the P59 goes into lean cruise saving a lot of fuel compared to the PF4 as well. I have also tuned a few boosted LS engines and even an ITB equipped LS with the factory P01/P59 PCMs. With the P59 I added a fuel composition sensor and have flex fuel compatibility as well. With the P59 I will also be easily swapping the TH400 to a 4L80E soon.

 

dude, i had an old pro flow. The new ones are far better. They tune so much better in every way. Saying old tech is better is pretty interesting opinion . Thats great you can use that old stuff. But a bunch of the stuff you're saying is just wrong. Clearly your experience w these newer ecms is limited. I dont mean to be a dick, and I dont have time in my life to address every wrong statement. I dont mean to place doubt on your tuning skills. Good luck w your old stuff. Hell, i have an old pro flo sitting in my garage, i tried to sell it years ago. No one wanted it. No one wanted to deal w the inferior chip style ecu.

Later!

 

Definitely not wrong here. New Proflow4 is GARBAGE, best place for it is a trash can. Especially when something as inexpensive as a GM P01/P59 runs the engine far better and can run a GM 4L60E/4L80E out of the box. The PF4 has next to no tunability which is its main issue.

 

Guys I didn't intend to start an argument. Each of us have our own experience and I appreciate both options.
I purchased the Dynamic EFI Port mod and had a really hard time tuning it at first so I had gone back to the MAF and custom chip until the factory system with the MAF was holding me back and I forced myself to figure out the Dynamic EFI tuning. Overall it's a very tunable system and the car runs great but I was thinking something newer might be better. I've heard from a friend that installed these aftermarket systems that the Edelbrock was a very good system and easy to work with as a matter a fact the guy said he wouldn't install any other system as the Edelbrock was that good. I figured I could set it up with the MRam and see how it tunes and runs compared to DyFI and go from there. I guess whether the PF4XT intake will actually fit is going to be try it and find out. Thx, for all the feedback.