http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1595844

The above link is quite abit of info. The thing is, I probably can't afford a Accel Gen 7 as of right now. My car is a 1988 Vette with the stock MAF.

What would you suggest for a cam to get the car close in regards to the 400rwhp level? I was thinking the TPIS ZZ409 wouldn't be too hard to tune, but I am not sure. It will be for a 11.0 CR 383, with a Miniram, and a set of the new 195cc AFR's!

What cams have you guys used? How many hours of tuning etc?


Thanks.

 

You're biggest issue is going to be that MAF based early system. There's a hundred threads where I've explained it's inherit problems.

Oh and a miniram has it's own set of issues.

Asking what others take time wise can be extremely misleading. I'd venture that some of the guys around here, can do in 5 mins., what would take others a couple weeks to do.

I'd suggest you search with the terms 7730, MAP. Stepping up to a 1990 MAP based system would be a good idea, for you, IMO.

Another suggestion would be geting familiar with tuning the MAP system on your stock engine, before having to learn on your hot rodded one. Kind of a baby steps thing....

 

My suggestion is that you first determine which is the best cam for your requirements (RPM range and power) based on the heads and intake manifold you plan on using. Once you've done that, I would follow Bruce's recommendation. Of course you could always swap in a SD system.

 

Would this be a good candidate for Rbob's EBL with the multi-port drivers? I can say that you would like the data logging and WUP display, not to mention the VELearn feature.

 

Can you tell me more about this?

 

Check out this site and see what you think....



http://www.dynamicefi.com/


It was originally for TBI but it has since had additional injector drivers added to run multi port. IIRC I'm not sure how many people are using it for MP but I have it for TBI and love the features and the tech support from Bob and all the people on here....

 

My buddy has a 383 Miniram with AFR 195 Competition ported with a solid roller 248/256 @.050 and 110* LSA. His engine makes power beyond 7,000 rpm, but we have "limited it" to only 6,800 rpm. He uses the 1989 MAF.

It was no "biggie" to tune. Played with the Idle (850 rpm when hot), IAC reset to 800 rpm min and a little diddliing with the lower MAF scalar tables.

He maxes the MAF before 4,000 rpm. We tuned it for WOT by adding extra fuel via the P/E tables and WB readings.

Without a WB, we would not have been able to tune the WOT fuel properly and it was very helpful in tuning the lower MAF Scalar tables.

 

that gives me hope. what kind of pwr is he making? and do you have any idea what those heads flow? also what's the lift on that cam?


thanks!

 

I am running an 89 MAF'd vette with 6spd/ZZ409 cam/1.5 roller rockers/miniram2 ported for the small FelPro 1204/113D ports that have been ported with 2.02/1.6 valves(necked stems with 30 degree backcuts) but it's on a 350. I have a good idle at 850 rpms, drives well and I passed Illinois emissions on the rollers in the 30 seconds quick pass with only the stock main cat and no air system by tuning it myself. The ZZ409 with 1.6 roller rockers is marginal at best for a 383 and the AFR 195 heads. It's lift with 1.6 rockers is ok but I'd go solidly up into the 230-240 degree range at .50 and in the .555-.565 lift range for a street motor. That would be one step up in cam duration size. You need to decide what you are going to use it for and what RPM range you are going to run. I wanted street/emissions passing/and power peak in the the 6000 area. I wanted a motor that the rest of the drive train could handle without breaking including the dual mass flywheel and a stock replacement clutch as the car only had 12,000 miles on it. The key is what are you wanting to do with the car, $$$ (now and later), how tough the emissions regs are, and are you willing to buy the equipment and spend the time learning to tune it right as mail order will run it but not really well as each motor likes different things.

 

thanks. any idea what power you are making with that combo? and how exactly did u tune it?

 

My basic WAG is 400-420 flywheel. With your manual trans you will need at least 475 flywheel to hit the 400 rwhp mark.

Tuning is another story. Originally bought the TPIS stageV chip at way too much money to get the motor to run. It ran marginally- choppy idle- bad AE lean pops - way too rich at idle. It couldn't pass emissions. TPIS claimed they can't really get the zz409 tuned well for emissions. I went the mail order route cause I was lazy. A local guy who has helped me a lot burned a couple of different chips for me to try to get me through emissions but no cigar. At this point I don't have a plate and can't get one til I pass emissions so I bough the cheapest full arsenal of products from Moates.net.
I already had EASE but it wasn't working well so I spent about $275 to get the basic set up with TunerPro RT/ALDU1/Cable/Flash&Burn/GP1/Spare chips/HDRI. At this point I had been reading Thirdgen posts for about a year and have printed out a foot deep pile of posts with hints on how to tune the MAF'd 165 cars. I was lucky as I started with reading and downloading the TPIS Chip/Stock Chip/two chips from my local friend/an Arizona Speed chip that originally came with the car. 75 burns later with 70+ scans I have it 80% to where I want to be. Fighting some minor lean AE rough spots and some very light surging at very light throttle but all else is well with BLM's in the 124 - 130 range and I tuned for the O2 mvs to be in the 850-900 range under WOT at 5500 plus. Being the forgetful trpe I have my abridged 3 page word doc with my own tips and notes on how to do this. I was forced to tune to get through emissions and thank the Lord I didn't have to learn how to read and change code thanks to all the great ThirdGen experts on this board who have done all the real work. You do have to spend a ton of time reading and MAF stuff is scarce but there's enough to do a credible job of tuning yourself as much is fairly intuitive. For me I hope to get a wide band setup to read real AFR's this summer and tuning is a blast as I can't leave well enough alone. There's some great products out there but I'm cheap being with out a job for over a year but I say go for it.

 

Sounds very similar to my story! I had a TPIS chip included with my engine build and the car ran horribly - exactly as you described above. My cam is very similar to the ZZ-X, and from the looks of the bin, it was really only tuned for WOT. They ought to be ashamed of themselves for what they charge for their PROM tunes. My next step (because I was lazy, too!) was to go mail order. It was MUCH better, but still not where it needed to be. So I finally stepped up to the plate, spent a lot of time reading, and now I'm happily making solid progress each time out. I can't wait to resume tuning this spring .

 

Seems like this thread is about everything OTHER then tuning. If you want to tune and are using the old MAF stuff, well, good luck. Keep trying to tune with a pegged MAF, and fudging things around *to run*, with the % vs RPM, and % vs TPS, and when you get all done, you still are just tuning to get it to run.

Yes, you can build a dedicated drag car to run 9s on a MAF, but that doesn't mean you're actually optimised the tune.

If you look at the new MAF stuff there is a number of tables, and corrections for the MAF reporting errors. And there for engine with little to no reversion peoblems. Now your wanting to run fast with code that has basic flaws in it. GM got by with it intially, for some real low HP applications. And when thinking about reporting errors, be sure to remember timing is a function of the LV8 calculation, so any mistake in air flow reporting is not only going to fubar the fueling, but also the timing.

Ya, you can tune it to run, which doesn't mean that it's tuned to it's optimum.

 

tpis had to program my chip twice ....not bad,my car idles very wel loppy but no stalling of loading up and so far performs better than i ever thought... im running a 383 maf set up with dart pro 1 heads a miniram and my cam is bigger than the zzx..i sent thenm the cam card when they reprogrammed the chip..3800 stahl conv .and 373s the car performs quite well..i guess i got the chip programmer on one of the better days?

 

I would be very concerned about the AF mixture based on my tuning expericne of MAF systems with potent 383s & Minirams. A hands-on WB reading is a must! Do yourself a favor and find someone with a WB (or go to a dyno which has one) and have it checked out.

My suspicion is either TPIS made the A/F too rich (to avoid lawsuits) or it is too lean (and more of a concern). But this is one area where "hands-on" tuning is a MUST!

But, get your A/F ratio checked out with a WB. At worst, you spent a little time & effort for a non-issue...but better to be safe than sorry.

But if my fears are right, you are not performing optimally and possibly risking damage to your motor.

 

damage to the motor? ouch! that doesnt sound good.

 

YOU KNOW IT DOES SMELL A LITTLE RICH DURING IDLE AND SEEMS TO SURGE JUST A LITTLE BIT PARDON MY IGNORANCE IT HAS BEEN A LONG DAY WHAT EXACTLY IS A WB? AND THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP..THATS WHY THIS PLACE IS GREAT WE ARE ALL HERE FOR THE SAME REASONS THE CARS..THANKS AGAIN AND ANY OTHER INFO IS GREATLY APPRECIATED..

 

WB stands for wideband, as in something like this:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php

As mentioned, it is KEY for tuning WOT, open loop, etc, especially when you have a more aggressive cam.

 

THANKS ,,, I WLL BE BUYING THE UNIT THIS WEEK ..AND 1 MORE QUESTION WILL I BE ABLE TO TUNE THIS CAR BETTER .. EVEN WITH THE TPIS PROM?

 

The first thing I did to my '87 vette was repin it to use a '730 ecm out of an fbody. Took about 45 minutes, including removing the ESC module and wiring up the map sensor.

There is no 'right answer' to what you want.

Bruce (Grumpy) will enforce exactly what Glenn said, the MAF will be pegged early in life, and you will have to "fudge" with tables to get WOT tuned.

With the speed density setup, your idle/cruise/and wot maps will be soo freaking close together you'll have the same 'fudging' involved. (with a big cam of course).

With my 306 cam, closed loop is a distant dream. I idle around 11hg of vac. MAP goes to 100kpa the second I put the foot down. I've played with o2 constants like Tim (Traxion) has suggested and could never get it "right" in closed loop.

Personally, i'd still go with the MAP setup in open loop. Unless someone handed me an LT1 setup (map + maf) that worked with a dizzy.

-- Joe