Guys,

What is the best instruction/illustrations for getting the MAF and MAP systems to run in parallel? I would like to do this for experimental purposes, and the better understanding for everyone what effect each system has on a bigger motor.

I looked at the one site that Trax provided, but it looked pretty sketchy on details. Maybe its easier than it looks, but I don't want a hacked up job, and it didn't really explain how you go back and forth between the two sytems.

I will read it again for the 10th time. But any explinations/illustration that anyone can offer or first hand doing it would be great!

I think the tests would be great to see, and the results will be done as fair as possible.

Thanks.

 

The only practical way of running two ecms with exactly the same inputs to compare the two is running them like this.

http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/project...cm_tbench1.jpg

Also, once you run one ecm with a known bin, you can set the other ecm in a duplicate manner, and see if in real life the cars run about the same. Given enough data points you can get real close.

That way you can steady state them and scan back and forth between the two, and see what's really going on, negating any external differences that would effect that data in actual useage.
If you want to run the two systems in the same car that would mean the 808 to 165 comparison, since if you go to a 730 your also changing processors which may slew the results.

To actually get any real data for serious meaningful comparions from in car testing means lots of data logging, and analysing the transistional stuff with real time WB stuff. To get the RT time stuff from what I've found means having to use 2 WBs since the only RT display I know of can't share the input with any data loggers. And while you might get close other ways, accurate data always wins.

But, the first thing is having the car finely tuned so you can see small changes, and document whats really going on. ie like looking for fueling changes when the injectors are static, it will be moot since either system can hammer an injector static. But, if the fuel isn't really close, the differences in timing will be off, since the engine is off tune anyway.

It takes alot of work to develope accurate test results. Key word is accurate.

Then too, to get accurate data means fully optimising each setup, ie trying numerous ways of plumbing the MAP to see what it takes to optimise it's response. And then playing with the lag filters in the software. Again, only if you want accurate results.

There is no real FAIR way to report stuff, just ACCURATE WAYS, and to be accurate means eliminating as many if not all variables.

But, then again the best data would be using the same code, with just changing the key load sensing elements of it so that one is truely doing back to back testing. So far thou, only one guy's gone to that extreme that I know of.

 

Grumpy,

I couldn't agree more that all thing and the way you describe them to be done are the *right* way.

However I am looking at it from a practicle point of view, like the average joe coming here and saying I want to get more out of my car. Which system is *best* for me to choose?

Most all the people here come here to make their cars faster, then usually driving better is secondary. Although I know they should be thinking the other way around, because when the PT tune is on, it easier to nail down the WOT stuff.

I am looking for a way to run one system at the track, then switch to the other to see if there are any practicle gains.

Right/wrong/ or indifferent...that is what most guys want to know. Obviously there are variable I can't control, and people have to obviously realize that.

But idealy yes you are correct.

At the end of the day, most want to see practicle real world results, like they were performing the tests themselves.

If I run the systems and I tune them both to my max ability, and one system is only .1 or .2 tenths different or on a dyno, 5-10 HP different. I think its pretty safe to say from a practicle point of view, there is no advantage to peak power on either system.

 

Why not try running the 165 ecm as a map system using the australian 808 code? The current "sticky" gives details on how to convert by Tee-ing off existing tps and maf wires and repin of the ecm.

 

If you want to report accurately there is only one way. I recall you using the word fairly.

If your just looking for what gets by OK on your setup then that's another topic.

Point of view, infers opinion, and everyone has one of those. Some based in reality, some not.

 

Sorry grumpy your email is shut off

This is Jeremy(from bowling Green), could u send me an email? my accounts got all screwed up and i lost your address
thanks
Jeremy

 

Wired, I will have to check that out. I am new to this swap over stuff as you can tell. I have a person giving my the new 730 ECM/Sensor/etc or I wouldn't even consider doing it, as I don't think there will be much if any gains. But for the sake of experiment and learning I figured what the heck.

Grumpy....As for the comment about just getting by.....why do you always have to throw in some assinine remark? Are you that immature and shallow that you can't just have a reasonable conversation? Jeepers! Believe me I am not the only one that shares these opinions of you.

I will say it like always do. People here on this board and every other board care about REAL WORLD results. Not something that some guy slaps together in a dark dreery room and turns ***** on to find settings. Comeon'

You can turn all the ***** you like and come up with whatever scenerios you like, but where are the real world results? Timeslips/dyno numbers etc. You never provide any of that information and believe me, people are starting to realize that you talk a good talk, but don't walk the walk. So perhaps your just getting by.

I think my setup/tuning has some respect here and I am trying to offer my time/money to help others out with showing the possible differences in the systems for performance applications. The main reason we all come here. To get the most out of our setups. I have been very open to suggestions, I paid 150 dollars to dyno the car to get the exact numbers based on MPH/weight/etc that I knew it would put out. It boils down to credibility....if sitting infront of a test bench turning ***** comparing what might happen in a real world situation, then have at it. Most of the people here want again I will say it...real world joe, with real world results.

We are all big boys and girls and can logically diseminate the errors that might be envoked with the experiments in this fashion. You can have all the NASA engineers you want, sorting out formulas/throries how to launch a rocket. And don't get me wrong I am in no way putting you up with the caliber of a nasa engineer. But the real proof is when they push the button. Does it launch or burn. What has more validity, formulas/testing or the actual launch?

If the majority intent of the people here was to setup a test bench in their rooms and optimize their setups, then yeah you would be correct, but if you look around, most of the people here are performance oriented and want to get the most out of their car, on the street/strip. Sometimes that means detuning in areas to achieve best results. Hardly something a test bench is going to tell you.

Now can we get back to the original post.....thanks wired I will take a look into that!

L8r

 

Why are you so thin skinned?.
and defensive?
gads, quit whinning and get on with life.

I really could care about catering my language to appeasing everyone all the time. If folks happen to be so shallow that every little thing in the world upsets THEM, then so be it.

Golly, so not everyone likes me, I'm just so crushed.

Just for a little EFI content, have you ever seen any accurate vehicle testing?. Of the type the oems use?. While you think I might be being picky, you should see what's really involved with getting things CORRECTLY.

 

Like I said, post up the results or shut up...I can't get any more clear than that.....and that is real world testing.

And for the record I am an engineering manager that has been in Fords, GM and nissans facilities.

Many of which I have seen, been in, and observed their testing of engines and engine components.

Now let me as you this,,,,,how many people here on this board have access to multi-million dollar equipment these facilities house??? Not to many, including yourself.

So again I will ask that you post your REAL world results ot don't post in my posts.

Your first comment was taken and replied to respectfully. Your second comment naturally as most know, was an assinine remark as I think you only have the ability to do that once or twice a day, then the snide comments have to come out. That I can do without, and I think I speak for the good many here that are tired of it.

As soon as someone says they are going to do a test that might deflate one of your accusations you have to start shooting holes in the idea. You speak of and talk about yourself like your some tuning ***. Give me a freakin break. I can talk about myself being the president of the US, and until I am sitting in the oval office behind the desk its just that, TALK! Grumpy the difference between you and I is that I do what I say I am, and you just do the above......talk.

I asked respectfully for help in carrying out a test that many people would like to see. If you don't agree with the way its being done, then you don't have to comment or listen to the results. PLain and simple.

Thin skinned, my friend, I am not. A person that is not going to put up your comments, I am. You can hide behind people reading into your posts as much as you want. I think we are all smart enough to see the truth.

Again I will ask that the post get back to the topic it was meant for, but I'm sure that is too much to ask.

 

Hey this is a public forum, as long as one abides by the rules commentary is allowed. So as for your attitude about who posts on YOUR threads, you desires are meaningless.

You asked for help, and I offered it. Just that simple, and again your the one taking exception to two words. Tell me that's not being exactly what your accusing me of being.

If you want to ignore it, fine, but, to start name calling, well that will get a response from me.

If you've seen what accurate testing is, then why not strive for getting accurate results?. You claimed to have wanted to post a fair report, how can it be fair if the testing is tained or poorly done?.

 

Your unreal, and a disgrace to the learning on this forum....PERIOD.

You harp to all sorts of people that SD is the greatest thing, then when someone goes to switch over and try the other system after running MAF way beyond anything you will ever accomplish, you run them down for that. Unreal.

It actually boarders on just plain SAD.

What I asked for was help getting it set up. Wired offfeed the kind of advice I was looking for. You offered and some in the first post, but quickly ruined that nice offer with sarcasme, as if NO One else on this board is capable of performing worth while tests, except you. That is clear that is your point, but the last chest thumping comment, "and I only know one guy that has gone to these extremes".

So what are the results? A TC GN there are many of them running in the 9s, surely you have to have a few of those kind of time slips/dyno numbers in the 450+ RWHP if your setup is so tuned to perfection, as the perfectionist you claim yourself to be. I am dying to see the proof of it all.......but we won't because proof requires more than talk.

I on the other hand offer my knowledge to all that ask openly, and RESPECTFULLY and come here to help people, rather than criticize them. There is really only one person here that I really dislike, wanna guess who? And from my second reply in this thread you can see that I try to burry the hatchet every chance I get.

I'm beginning to think you don't even have a car, but rather just go to the GN board, read that the guys that are actually doing the 9s say, then come running over here and spout it off. Could I be onto something??? Sure seems that way....jeesh.

Yeah your right about it being a public board and people being allowed to offer their opinions freely. Here is one of my opinions...I think that the reason you try to discredit my accomplishments and future tests, is I am doing something what you have only wished you could do. I get results. Real world results.

 

Oh really?.
Please show me where I said MAP was the greatest thing going. All I've ever done is point out the characteristics of the different systems. PERIOD.

I've never passed judgement on any system. Unlike some around here that rant that one system is better then another.

I would hope, that people go further then I have and will continue to do so. Check your history about prom burning.

So other then again chest thumping, please feel free to get back to PROM BURNING.

And where have I run anyone one down?, at worst I've just pointed out things they may have done differently, or gadzukes maybe I used a non-ski_down_it approved phrase. Get real.

You in having taken offense to two simple words you have polluted your own thread with having to rant. Talk about wasting band width.

It just amazes me how you have to continually go on about the most minor of language infractions, and then EFI wise, your not even sure if your injectors are static or not.

Just to get a little back on topic, how can you compare one system to another, when you don't have accurate info.?. It would just seem to me, that to do any real comparions, you would want to know the basics of where your at with your own set-up.

I think it's sad that you constantly retort to name calling. Oh well, again have a nice day.

 

Ahh, things make more sense now.
I see your a forum leader now some place else.

Things make more sense now. Come over here, and get in a tissy about 2 words. Then misstate things, and raise a ruckus and then say what a bad list this is, or accuse me of some nonsense.

Interesting game.

 

Guys - this thread is on the verge of being locked. Just posting up a warning. I'd like to leave it open because the running in parallel thing would be cool.

I would recommend NOT running in 'parallel' ... but rather making it easy to swap back and forth very easy. You can set the system up by making an adapter that swaps all the pins from ECM to ECM. It can be as easy as a couple minutes to swap from one ECM to the next whenever you want to. Mike Davis did this. It might look like a hack job in the pics but trust me ... Mike doesn't hack anything. That adapter he built looks professional and he is a first class soldering person.

Tim

 

Yeah Trax that is what I will plan to do. Maybe parallel wasn't a good phrase to use. Perhaps we can speak on the side if you have had some hand in what mike did or can maybe ellaborate on things a little more. THanks.

Grumpy, please give me a break, I just got the car up,,,,took it to the track for 2 times, have 5-7 runs on the car, just took it to the dyno for the first time last week.....I think the HP/TQ and ET/MPH pretty much speaks for the tuning with what I have for the little bit of time I have had to spend tuning/learning the car.

PLease if you want to rattle on about results, then post sum...if I wouldn't have posted the results I have, you would be calling BS to my setup/tuning only 2 chips to turn an 11.147@123 with the first track appearance etc.

For garsh sakes people are starting to laugh...either post some Real world results or quite speaking....

People want to know what works and what THEY, with the average tools available can do.

I love this stuff and if you want to bash me about being on another forum and being an active member, you better start bashing a lot of people that frequent many other boards, including yourself (GN board) or wasn't I suppose to know that??

Sorry folks....I plan on making some sort of harness LOL, when I figure it out I will be sure to document the making/installation and give an honest unbias (although) I have been pro-MAF to the best of my ability. It will just be my opinion, but I don't think I need to say that, we are all smart enough to know that, but some have to point that out for us, because we are lesser individuals. But I will give an honest opinion of what I think, if there are improvements, then I will gladly post the results. If I run in the 10s the first time I use the system, then I will surely share it with you all. If I don't like something I will post that too. Sorta like reading any performance mag, except I am not getting paid to advertise my experience, or getting free dyno/track time.

I know alot of you are out there and would be enthused to hear/see the experiement done, but are afraid to post out of fear of becoming the target of attack from some. So I understand your dismay, and hope it end soon.

L8R

 

I'd like to see some time slips

 

Your the one rattling on.
This whole tangent is just over you taking exception to two words.
You're constantly misquoting and taking things out of context, if you would just stick to being accurate, then I would have little to say.

I've watched too many petty number games to even play them any more. So I'll just take a pass on playing them again.
If you want to post numbers then fine, that's just a game you want to play.

How about posting how many really useful articles, you generated. How many original ideas that you saw to fruitation.
How many things have you done just to benefit the community with no gain for yourself.

And who's trying to cash in on even posting here?.

 

Making a swap harness is simple. It’s the exact same process as if you were swapping to SD just you don’t pull the pins out of the 165 connectors. You need to unsolder a 165 connector from a donor ECM, which is used in many 80’s GM ECM’s. Also you will need some 730 pigtails. The pin outs for the corvette 165, which you can get from here: http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227165/ or http://chevythunder.com/fuel%20injec...%20pinouts.htm

Then you will need to get the pin outs for the 730 or 727 whatever you decide you use which you can get from here: http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227730/ or http://chevythunder.com/fuel%20injec...%20pinouts.htm

Now you have to match out the same connectors and make a cross over harness. Here is a change over guide: http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ECMs/86to92.txt or http://corvette.asdf.org/ECMtable.txt and just connect the wires between the 165 connector and the 730 pigtails as needed.

 

Grumpy you don't want to play because you can't. Period.

Its easy to poke holes in everything EVERYONE else does here, as you clearly do. You can't stand the fact that someone else is clearly doing what they say they are. And posting results.

People I'm sure are tuning into this and probably laughing their azzes off, because someone has finally had enough, and is calling you out. You have nothing else to do but resort to saying I don't contribute etc etc etc. When clearly anyone who has ever talked to me, emailed me, PMed me, diagreed with me, or even called me (as I have about 5 calls a week with people asking sometimes VERY trivial questions) and I treat each of them with respect and take time out of my life to try to help them all.

So please your making this a comedy pitstop and better than the enquirer to read for MANY people. The sun is out and someone is caught with their pants around their ankles.


It boils down to results, I will say again. Your credibility lately with many is about nill. Your only way to save any face is to change your ways. And quite blaming everyone else for reading into words. Don't insult everyone intelligence, its pretty obvious who is to blame.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

89 Iroc Z,

Thanks a million for posting those links. I haven't had a chance this evening to look into the project much more. My father needed my help with some things. But I will surely take a close look at each of them.

As a side note I am seriously pumped as we are seriously considering purchasing a dyno. We have a portion of the dealership that my brother runs that has nothing active going on in it and there are no dynoes in this area, so it would be a great tool for the many guys in this area to use as a tuning device. Not to mention I could do some serious experimentation on it.

Again thanks for the helpful posts guys!

 

Ski... your ignorance is showing.. or is that your ego?

For being an engineer.. I'm aghast. Simple empirical evidence.. and repeatable testing and achieving repeatable results. And you are not the only one with access to OEM engineering sites.

You have yet again taking to having a pissing contest when the quality regarding your info is questioned.

Noone has stirred this more than you. The most humourous part is judging Grumpy's credibility. Those that know, know different.

Flame on.. this will be the last I will post to one of your threads.. and frankly.. possibly the last time on Thirdgen. I am tired of your and other pissing contests.. oh.. you ARE static. your 2% increase in fuel clearly showed it. All your data showed was the injectors are going static earlier. AnD once the MAF readings hit 255 you are out of resolution, and the MAF is no longer an active part of fueling. But hey, you already know this.. I'm done here.

Trax.. lock this thread as any usful info this thread may have had has been flushed.

Bob Ward

 

Hey saturn,

My request for information on how the best way to run both systems is nothing about a pissing contest.

I only respond back with remarks to individuals when they are ignorant to other or myself. You can clearly see that I responded back with first reply to grumpy with respect and thankfullness, but then he has to take it to the next level. Hence the pissing match.

Credibility??? Comeon, I will say it again? Show me the results, that is what credibility is about...especially when you challenge someone elses ways. I have the results and that is why he takes offense to anything anyone says that challenges his preachings.

You two are like that cartoon, where the bulldog has that little dog that bounces around behind him from side to side trying to get his approval. You come and bite then disappear. Its almost as funny as the cartoon, but this is real life and that makes it just SAD.

Sorry, but if I wanted to hear just talk, then I would go down to the local pub where everyone you talk to with a "fast" car is pushing 500+ hp and has 10k+ dollars in their engines
Yet when you see them run at the local drags, they run 14+ sec and make excuses that they can't get traction, then their cars can't even power brake and break the tires loose.


If I wanted to just listen to talk then that is where I would go for advice. Credibility and respect are earned.....

So from starting the car about 1 month ago to running near 10sec 1/4 miles, to a dyno a week ago I determined that my injectors were static.....big deal, ever hear of working the bigs out of a new setup...I still had it tuned to hammer out 437rwhp/536 ftlb of tq......I would say that is pretty decent progress. The injectors being static just means there is more in the setup, great for me.

If you choose not to post in my threads why don't you talk someone else into doing the same for me I can get a list of names together of other members also that would probably like to get added to that list if you would like to me PM it to you......I have said it before, the flow of ideas and open discussion would be much better if a few were not involved.

I will say also my ignorance as you put it, just states the obvious and if you want to listen to talk and theories all day long, then fine, you two should just use the PM system and do your armchair testing. My brother, love him to death, is the same as you two. The absolute best football coach their is, not a single NFL coach can call the right play. A few years ago he was asked to be the coach for a local football team. Listening to him talk he could have convinced Joe Paterno to let him be head coach. That year the team went 1-9 for the season. It was his first and only year of coaching. So I guess the moral of the story is there are people that can talk, and their are people that get results......we all know grumpy can talk (most of the time, in disrespect for others), but can he produce? Nope! That is has become increasingly evident over the past year or so.

Results are what speak loudest....talk is just hot air.

PS thanks for staying out of my threads in the future. :cheers:

And what do you think gives you the right to tell the mods to lock a thread that wasn't even started by you? And interjection of your own and others are the reason for its deviation. It just goes to show the how far up each others ***** you to two have your heads. Trax himself said the experiment would be neat to see done. Sure there will be errors that will be introduced in the experiment, but I will try to the best of my ability to report the best I can the results. Its not different than anyone else switching over to SD and claiming a gain. In that case you guys would be all pats on the back. In my case, since I don't follow you guys around like a lost puppy, you take offense to my every post. grow up.

I frankly am tired of the constant babbling coming from some...its time to put up, or shut up!
________________________________________________


89 Iroc Z,

I would again like to thank you for collecting the links in the past post.

Have you first hand done the conversion? If so are their any heads up items I should be aware of?

Thanks.

Trax: Sorry, I mean no disrespect towards you and the other mods, but sooner or later the annoyances will quite intejecting their .02 and let this thread get back onto what clearly what my original intent. Also seen from my second respectful response to grumpy's first reply. Thanks for the understanding!

 

The intent by your actions is to continually whine about *close enough*.

And when some one responds with any thing you don't approve of, go off on another tangent.

And again you resort to name calling, and then wonder why folks don't care to converse with you.

Again have a nice day.

 

Grumpy,

Here is the way I look at it. My so called *close enough* is better than your so called perfection.....call it what you will. Results speak louder than words...but all we ever hear from you is words and critism.

I don't whine my friend I just don't put up with you or your partners crap...

I have plenty, trust me, people who frequently and religiously contact me for advice.....and just from this forum, most of the people express the same exact opinion of you as I openly express. They don't post here and don't offer any kind of participation becuase of one person and that is YOU! In some sort of sick way....I'm sure that pleases you and makes you feel a sense of accomplishment. I'm sure.

I offer my time and money to make a switch over to another system to offer another point of view from a system now that is making some decent power. I did not say I was doing it tomorrow, next month or even this summer. I first want to get the absolute MAX out of this setup, which means YES getting my pressure up and decreasing the pulse widths. Perhaps that will yeild some more power, to the point of saying that the system is maxed out for power. But you automatically conclude that I am not going to do that......very presuptuous, and nieve if you ask me.

secondly on Trax's dyno post you then turn around and say that track performance etc is vital, when in this post you harp about test benches....make up your friggin mind.....or does your test bench account for all the dynamics that happen on the strip? Or wait? Are we back to real world situations again....hmmmm amazing how you talk in circles.

Your main goal here on this board is to disrupt, criticize, and portray yourself as the only compitant person available to test ideas.

Except your never able to show any results, sorta like the armchair coach

Its pretty sad that you can't start a post around here and see it to closure, and not premature closure becuase a few can't just state your opinions, like you did in your first response and I acknowledged your opinion in a respectful manner, then leave well enough alone. It pretty sad.....if I disrupted as many posts as you do, with nothing more than critisism...I would be totally ashamed. And if you do have something to offer, why not encourage experiement, right/wrong/indifferent...you can clearly tell your afraid of something.........and very insecure about your self. That is very typical in people that are not happy with themselves, and very obvious here.

_______________________________________________

At the end of the day, I will conduct the comparison to the best of my ability and to the best of the tools afforded to me. I have my own theories on the outcome, but look very forward to seeing them in an honest real world comparison. If I find .3 tenths with the new setup, what you don't think I am going to be happy with the gains. Sure I will honestly report anything I can.

 

Can you not read?.
Where do you see perfection mentioned in any of my writtings?.
Again a misquote, and no more then a febble troll event.

Again critisism is in the eyes of the beholder, pointing out facts and other point of views aren't critisisms. Well, to some people.

Talk about presumptuous you've got to be leader of the pack.

Have you read how to use an ecm bench?. Or again just rattling around. An ecm bench is one tool. A dyno is one tool. A WB is one tool. The more data you gain from ALL the tools possible makes for a better understanding of the total dynamics.

Oh please, here we go again. OK heres some numbers, may car makes over 245 HP, it runs the 1/4 in under 20 secs, and gets over 10 MPG. Happy?. Like I said, I don't play the numbers games, because track to track the differences can be huge, and anyone can claim to have run anything they want. It's the old first liar never wins game. Oh ya, that never happens on the net, LOL.

New ideas, I've had a few, and even tested them. So far all I see you doing is repeating what's been done. Mike Davis, Mike Rolica, and Mike Pitts have all posted their results on the MAF to MAP issue. And I've made mention of what I've found. Feel free to retrace things, get right in line.

Then you don't even catch up on things, and quote old stuff out of context acting like you've discovered something.

Maybe in your world it's not whining, but over here it sounds that way. Remember this all started with your dislike of the term close enough, and you have now taken to name calling and any other tangent item you can think of.

Me be ashamed, LOL, look at the mess you've made of your own thread again over two words, now that is just silly. To bad you don't take any of your own advise.

So it would seem in your world that a thread should go on reguardless, if in error, that's fine, just so that it doesn't have any negative comments. Oh how PC.

And yes, I think there are alot of whiners, and other attitudes around, about the world not being fair etc, that waste alot of resources. Excuse me, I have a life, and things to do...

 

See attached,

Items of some interest.

4 WB sensors
Lockers data logging board
Direct Scan data logging.
In car portable timer, for being able to do back to back testing. Designed and built by me for being able to accurtely do back to back testing.
2 experiment late model MAFs, underneath the incar timer, and locker board.

Hmm, looks like a complete collection of data gathering materials.

Scope is just for background.

 

Nutter pic,
two ecm benchs.
and laptops to run them.

 

Spare WB
and displays

 

Nother item

Propane injection system to be evaluated.

Yep, just arm chairing it, LOL.

Not to mention the stuff, that's just not laying around the house.

Now what we're you getting hyper about?, oh ya numbers. I just use the above for photo opportunities. LOL

Gots lots of numbers, too.
Just not into the my dog is bigger then your dog,
train of thought.

 

Sorry to join the thread but I haven't seen this setup in actuality and have been looking at incorperating something like this into a front hub bearing with H_E sensor...

This looks like the setup mentioned in the tuning tips page at DIY. Any chance you have some closeups of the board, or any more application notes? The Nat S PDF didn't quite help me out on which sample circuit could be used for it. TIA, -Matt

 

I have done the conversion from MAF to SD but have never tried a swap harness to do it.

Some more info I forgot to post about using a swap connector. Since the MAF setup obviously doesn’t have a MAP sensor you have to run a few wires out to the engine from the swap harness to connect to the MAP sensor. Mike used a trailer plug as seen in this pic http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28..._soldered2.jpg

Another thing that need to be done is you need to run a SD knock sensor but you don’t have to worry about this because you are not running a knock sensor.

 

GUMPY,

I'm flattered that you went to all that trouble to take all those wonderful pictures to do nothing more than prove my exact point. If I wanted to sit in a dark dreary room on my chair that was falling apart and turn ***** all day, then I guess you have me LOL. And just for the record you can check my website for some of those gizmos too. And also videos etc as proof of everything I say I do also. Since you insinuated that I was lying and my testing would be falsified in some way.

In Trax's dyno test results I comment about the dyno, and you say that the track are always a final check....as a matter of fact here is the quote...don't want to misquote, gumpy.


Originally posted by Grumpy
Trouble is, dynos as a single source aren't always the best answer. On track performance, and reading plugs are always the final check.


Does that mean that my testing at a track with Real World results as I have been saying is OK? Hmmmmm....it almost seems as though in one post I say white, you say black....in another I say black, you say white.... I will have to see the GN board for your next response. And please tell me where I mentioned being a pioneer in being the first to make this swap? Your loosing touch with reality my friend.

At the end of the day grumpy all you did was further back my bust theory that you do not have any credible numbers to back up anything you say. And where in any of my posts did I question your ability to turn ***** in a room, all along that is what I have been saying your a pro at.

Unfortunately my friend that pro status is far from the above quote you mentioned above that on track performance is the final check.....just as I have been saying through this entire post...Thanks.

You see gumpy if one talks enough they always hang themselves....and you are good at keeping things to a minimum and very loose, but this time you slipped up. And it was even in a response once again to something I said. Sloppy my friend, very sloppy. You shouldn't let your emotions get the best of you

Once again thanks for the nice pictorials you provided. :cheeers:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

89 Iroc,

Yeah I picked up on that knock sensor issue in some of my readings, but as you said currently I am not running one, but definately will when the time comes to tune the SD. So yes its something I will have to purchase. Thanks.

I am going to see the local GM dealer this week to see what he can get me. I hate to use used pieces that might have something wrong with them, so I will see what he has available. Who knows he might have something right there on site.

I have connection to a brand new ECM/MAP sensor, so those are pretty much in the bag, the rest just looks like I could get it at a junk yard, if the GM fella doesn't have anything.

I will be sure to get one of those pin tools as well.


Thanks and I appreciate the effort.

Regards,

Jesse

 

Emotions?, yep just so many giggles listening to you.

Well try this one more time.
They're all tools, the more tools you use the better the results. Track, WB, ECM bench, dyno, anything you can think of.

Like I menioned earlier, just swapping ecms and running with static injectors is pointless. First element is finding out where you are, and that means having the tools to know where your at.

Yep, I've started scattering info around, just to make it tougher for the lazy people that try to cash in on others work to at least have to surf around some. Now, can you find the other places, LOL.

Turning *****, oh you crack me up.

Have you read what you've been posting?.

Try the comment inferring the dyno is the end all to gathering info.. Which is what I was repling too. Again, your taking things out of context shows. Too bad.

BTW, lets see some of you alledged table work.
If you want to dismiss my tuning equipment fine, using the same logic as that I can now dismiss your timing slips and other items.
So we're back to nener, nener, nener, LOL.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ski_dwn_it
[B]GUMPY,


Originally posted by Grumpy
Trouble is, dynos as a single source aren't always the best answer. On track performance, and reading plugs are always the final check.


We'll all just go back to this statement.......just I have been saying all along.....I don't give a crap what you do to get their, go to a physcic to tell you what to change in the tables...the bottom line is track results.

Like I said in my other post....when did I say the actual comparison was going to be done? I didn't. Obviously I am not done with the MAF system and am not done tweaking the current setup, so again your spouting off with worthless drival.

Gumpy, its pretty obvioius that this board is your entire life, including your social and personal. please come to understand that not everyone, the good many of us here. Could care less about your opinion, and your constant ridicual onto others hard work. Let me ask you does the fact that you built these test benches, have no worthwhile results to post, or believe me you would have shoved them down my throat by now. You say you don't want to play the numbers game, but I think we can all see the real thruth. And believe me I could care less if your car runs 8's or 14's. The point is don't smash on everyone else here on this board, and hind behind the "words" game. Trust me you suck at it when someone starts playing back. PLease go back and read the entire post...your argument was weak at best, and then you totally suck your foot in your mouth when you opened it in Trax's post.

The facts are. Most of the people come here to get the most out of their cars. They don't have a bench tester, or even a WB. They come here with an open eye and ear trying to learn....they post a question and you or one of your sidekicks smash them to the ground. Real productive. I'm frankly tired of it. WHen challenged you produce nothing in the way of proof that you have your car running even close to what you insinuate you do. That is proof in itself that your no better than the rest of us, and your words are all you have. Mind you, they are weak at best.

Words are jus as I said, hot air. As you said the final test is the track.

Let me just ask you for the 300+ people that have viewed this thread, that are probably laughing their ***** off, that someone is finally giving you some of your own medicine. How do you compensate for traction problems on that test bench?

You keep harping on the fact that my injectors are static. How many years have you been tinkering with your setup? I have about 1.5 months at best on mine, and undoubtably it needs some tweaking yet, I never said it was optimized, and the testing was going to commense next weekend at the track. So that arguement is poor at best, gumpy. If you haven't noticed I don't give into every word people state, especially you, on this board. So when the questions of static injectors came up, before I had anything other than an Ease Log, I challenged people's opinions in a respectful way and it brought about some interesting reading and insight. So please the static injector comments are rediculous, and shows you are grasping at straws. And comments about timeslips being falsified, when their are videos and other forum member, 87_ta, that made their own posts after seeing the car run, make your comment outlandish and again a clear representation that your talk is unbacked and just that, talk.

You have not contributed a single helpful thing to promote this thread. 89 Iroc, posted the helpful stuff. Grow up gumpy and get a life outside this board. Its quite pittyful, and is the root of all your ridicule.

The last post I made before this one, pretty much sums up the fact you talk in circles, and to whatever suites your "time of the day talk". You fell for that hook, line, and sinker. LOL Your really quite easy to figure out.

Distract every post to make yourself look like a "***" , which is just laughable.

Ridicule every attempt at any sort of progress someone may have made, or is trying to make.

Frighten the newcomers into not even post, so your the only one that has a say on the board. I see where you really count on this one. Since you have nothing more than talk.

Please give us all a break with the theatics. You said it yourself that at track performance was the "final" test, now live with it.

I spend alot of time at the track and know what I have accomplished thus far is pretty impressive. I also know it doesn't matter what methods you use to get their, as long as you get their. PERIOD.

 

Jesse, this is ridiculous. I wouldn't use Grumpy's writing style (except ironically ) but everyone here must understand it by now, and I'm amazed that people like him keep posting here with the hassle they get. You see the problem in Saturn5 saying he's had enough.

Respectfully, this forum doesn't seem to be about people wanting to run 11 second quarter mile times. This proves nothing- I know some great blokes who build billet top fuel dragster motors on CNC machines, and they don't know a MAP from a MAF, but they get to 300 MPH in 5 seconds.

This forum seems to me to be about people being given "transferable information." Not just car specific stuff. You got Grumpy telling you on his second post that accurate results were more important than fair, and you called his comments "assinine". I just can't believe he wasted his time posting details of what he's done for the community. It won't impress you, and the rest of us understand the difference anyway.

Calm down and stop insulting people who really know what they're doing. The "two dogs" insult to Saturn5 was reprehensible.

I hope this gets locked before more valuable people go somewhere else and quit giving me useful help.

John Third Dog

 

John.

Respectfully you have been here for about 6 months, at one point in time I shared the same opinion as you. However in a few years we'll see if you still have that opinion.

Remember, I started this post asking for information about doing the swap, NOT how to do the testing. gumpy assumes that if anyone did any other testing besides himself that the results would be skewed, since many of his before preached thoughts have been falling by the way side lately.

I asked Saturn to please advice gumpy to not post in my posts anymore. I could shoot holes in any one of his discussion he starts, but choose to keep it to my own posts.

His writing style is not the problem, obviously you haven' been here long enough to realize that yet.

You speak about people leaving here, as a results of my posts. That is almost histarical, considering that many, many people have told me just in the last week via email and PM that they WILL NOT post here because of gumpys continued remarks.

If you want to be one of his followers, then have at it. But in time you will think back and realize the purpose of my words.

You can see from any of my other posts I will go out of my way to ensure that people get helped in any way I can.

Again this post was for gaining information about how to make a MAF/SD system that I could experiment with. To see how it effect a larger CI engine, that is already running well at the track. That was the intent. Not to ague with another member. If you can find where in my first post that was the intent, or even the second then please point that out. My point through this entire post is pretty simple, as far as the posts to gumpy are concerned. if everyone had to have a test bench, a propane whatever (like that had anything at all to do with the topic??) a WB etc etc before they could post a test result or touch their car to tune it guess what? THis place would be non-existant. Most of us here are average joes, with a desire to get the most out of our setups. All that stuff is nice and great, but I have gotten to where I am without the use of those items and my setup is probably one of the stoutest here on the board, for an NA engine. I offered to do the experiment for purposes of learning and seeing if in fact my setup will benefit from the switch. No-one here knows how far you can push either of the systems. A year or more ago, 450 FWhp was the quoted limit. Jeash, wonder what would have happen if no-one would have challenged that claim? I am not trying to prove that one system is better than another or that you have to run this or that system. From the many many emails I have recieved commenting on how people are impressed with the car thus far, I thought a test of SD is only fair. When I post the results, ignore them if you don't trust the testing grounds. Not my problem, or concern. I'm sure there will be many people that tune in to see the results. If noone does then that is fine too, I will know the outcome and really that is who I am appeasing. Sharing with the others is just the way I am. I could go to the track and have the many people come up to me asking me about the setup and keep it to myself. Instead I openly post about every item I can on my website to help others.

Frankly I wouldn't even post in regards to gumpy's remarks, but I can type pretty darn fast (reason for my spelling mistakes ) so its actually very little time out of my day. And I KNOW that many other share in my opinion of his constant disrespect to others ideas/testing. Take a look at Funsticks posts. Gumpy is always right there with conjecture. If you want to promote that, then have at it.

If you think my intent of this or any of my posts are to drive people away from this board, you are grossly mistaken. I post results and comments to help others.

Stick around the forum a bit longer the true colors of some will shine through. Believe me I was once there.

 

Me fourth dog(since we're all talking about grammar anyhow)

Isnt this getting a little old on both sides and anyone else who has walked in to this thread?...............I've met grumpy, maybe that makes me biiased maybe it doesnt. What i do know is i never met that guy before in my life and he was more than willing to talk with me at length about tuning on both gn/tr applications and my other 730 types.. (even gave me a standing invite to come out his way when i get some time) He also imtroduced me to Bailey(MAF translator) and one of his pretty good friends.. If people like this back grumpy up when he speaks seems to me that doubting what he says seems silly............No one here is a ***, niether I, nor Grumpy, nor Ski-down-it and we all occasionally take our lumps and yes sometimes we are wrong.. What tends to seperate the men from the boys in being right or wrong is the amount of data conveyed...............On most topics that Grumpy speaks of and Glenn91 as well, between the 2 of these guys they prolly have more empirical data from working their lower VE than most of us do on our entire chip we call "done"(if they is such a thing)... Sometimes people read too much into what others say and that ends up getting a lot of wasted space here, which is a real shame...I didnt know a thing till i got my prom burning gear and started living reading breathign off these pages/boards.......Ive done enfuff that i feel confident on whos info here i can trust and whos that i cant and time and time again grumpy's has never been wrong for me, whether it wa s a question directly for him or one of his many stickies here or his final answer
Later
Jeremy
PS Im sick and incoherent for tuning but this is just getting ridiculous so i posted

 

Guys,

Actually I couldn't agree more that its rediculous. Why when anyone posts a results, or a propose a tuning method, or a test does gumpy have to cut it down, and make a spectical of it? Why because he is *thinks* he is the only worthy person around that can do anything worth while.

If I didn't have any dignity or a life, I would wait till he posts every time and cut it apart with aqusations etc. But you know, I really could care less. If you guys want to be his little puppets, then fine.

Trust me, I could post the emails I get and the emails from past in regards to his demeaner. But again its not worth my time.

I started this post with the soul intentions to help some people out, and to post a comparison many thought would be interesting. However, as all the posts or individual gumpy doesn't like, they are tainted with his worthless drival, or get shutdown by the mods becaues of the previous, which causes arguments. Take a look at all the past posts. Its pretty obvious.

I have absolutely no doubt that he is a nice person in person. Most people like him are. On the computer they are asses to nearly every person they cross and in person they are nice as pie. Very typical and I have had my fill of him on the computer end, with some luck we will pass on the other side.

Perhaps I should take advantage of the childish remark he made, "Its a free public board to post on, so if I want to post I can in your threads" Real mature attiude there!

Well I have wasted enough time on this post....what started out as good intentions have once again been tainted by gumpy. I'm sure he is smiling, but in all actually I am. I know the truth, given to me in email and the sender I will keep anonymous for obvious reasons, but let me tell you, its from a very reliable source. This is to all you loyal follows of him. Be advised that he would have been booted off the board a LONG LONG time ago if it wasn't for the higher power of the board, out of sympathy keeping him here, since.....ahhhhh how did they put it..."He has nothing else in his life and they don't want to take this last thing from him" That is just down right pittyful. So to all you loyal followers, your following a dead end path. The choice is yours. And two out of the 300+ people stood up for him. That should say something there in itself. The bottom line is he ends more thread than he ever started, and smuthers more information sharing than he could share in 10 lifetimes. The people that can't see that are blind or just plain don't know what is going on.

Mind you the intent of this post was to do nothing more than ask for help on a project and to share with you all the results. Sorry to those that wanted to hear the outcome. Come to the vette forum, and it will be posted there, along with pictures of the progress etc.

L8r.

 

Hey, calm down Jesse, you're getting so stressed you can't count dogs We're up to Fourth Dog, now, so that makes the Junkyard Dog and 3 little support pooches

Look mate, you know what to expect, you make a statement and you'll get pushed by Grumpy. You're a big boy, either ignore it or push back- but don't make it personal please- push back with some hard data or reasoning. The remark about what's in Grumpy's life is based on no knowledge, and even it were, it's below your dignity to comment on it.

Give the Chevy a big bootfull and your frustrations will evaporate in tyre smoke mate

Where's the locksmith?

John

 

I think I made my point quite well in this entire post, mate.

Read back through it all in its entirety and you will see that Grumpy is nothing more than talk.

Proof of data....look at the sig. Take a look at the results page, they speak for themselves. And that mind you, as gumpy so religiously pointed out, was on static injectors. hhmmmmm, nope I don't have a clue what is going on, or how to tune one of these. Any of you fellas want to show your cards?

PLease don't act like you know what is going on. This thread is a clear representation of how NOTHING worth while can get accomplished in a meaniful way with gumpy on the prowl.

If your happy with reading his stickey, as I see he has been quite busy in the last couple of days, justifying his existance here on the board. That one about dyno is quite interesting.... and contains tons upon tons of useful information...LOL

As I said before and even gumpy slipped and said when he was in a different thread. Track peformance is the final check. I think I can hold my own in that department, and until you guys can provide similiar results, then please don't waste my time. Perhaps you should devote the time your spending in your circle &erk with gumpy to better equip your cars to run better.

You ask me for some hard data, I think the webpage provides you with plently. Please provide some of your own now, then you can tell me my testing/knowledge is not up to par.

You see you people that hang with gumpy miss the entire point. The talk is all he has, and this forum is where the talk takes place. He lives for the forum so he can disperse the drival that keeps him going. But there is not any real world results from the talk. A test bench primed to the max, is hardly a car maxed to its potential. Or qualifies someone as the one stop tuning authority.

As I said from the begining, the proof is where the rubber meets the road.
PLease see my site where that become a reality and where the talk becomes a reality. here is the link...I will save you the burden of looking it up. http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/ski...t//results.htm

 

I understand part of your frustration Jesse...as I have seen a LOT of MAF topics in the past come to an abrupt end because the MAF is simply "inferior" to SD...and I am glad that you have gone to all the trouble that you have to prove what can be done with MAF...

However...

This has become too petty/personal for Thirdgen...This should be a discussion via email between you both. It is pretty obvious that in a public forum like this, the real goal should be the information exchange, not bickering. The bickering drives people away who could/should be contributing.

Grumpy has added a lot of value to this info exchange...and could add another piece with some track time...I believe that track results and seeing the change in 1/4 mile time/mph is a valid tuning tool, right? Maybe Grumpy doesn't go to the track, that's OK too...but if he has, posting some results wouldn't hurt...

Thread content: I have not done the 808 code, but think it is a cool idea to try first Jesse.

 

Read back through it all in its entirety and you will see that Grumpy is nothing more than talk.



This is just plain garbage at this point in time. I debated wasting the time typing to reply. I wont sit here and argue a public case for him or be the judge/jury or executioner, but making blank statements like that would seem to me to give away who really knows more or less about things and im not referring to grumpy by any means....

Im sure that if he wanted to or anyone here bothered to actually find out about him, who he knows, or who he works with, he would probably more than likey talk to anyone here that gave him a fair shake.. Some of them are even far more in the know than people claim Grumpy doesnt so called "know". I wont say he always types things in the most pleasant way but he is blunt and to the point, some folks are just like that.....

Ski-down-it, this isnt slamming u and u know what, i can admmire u for taking the MAF system to its limits and finding out how far u can go. Nice to see someone picking up the MAF setup and running ahead with it, maybe in the end u find out something new for everyone, maybe u dont, but u seem fairly organized and have a definite plan your working too and thats cool.

This has basically come down to a pi#%% match and wasting board space... Im no expert on all this stuff, lord knows im trying about as hard as i can time permitting but i am glad that their are poeple who are far more knowledgeable than me to call people out, whether their orginal assumptions were right or wrong and looking for proof.. If there wasnt anyone doing that we would have about 10* the info here with about 1/20 of it maybe just maybe being actual useful pertinent info...

My sopabox is off for now i think
Jeremy

 

Alright guys. I think everyone can give the mods some credit on this one due to allowing the post to go as far as it did. But - it's now time to lock it down. Jesse, if you disagree please contact me via e-mail.

Tim