allright, before you socialists on the board get your panties in a bunch, let me explain.

Ive been around watching this prom burning thing evolve for quite some time. It seems like on an almost weekly basis we hear about someone else coming up with some sort of software to help us tune cars usint a variety of hardware interfaces. We are at the point now that there are a variety of things you can monitor using a variety of ways.. theres a program out there to calculate quarter mile from what the ecm spits out, theres another that tells you hp for a specific rpm, there are a bunch that log BLMS and whatnot for different blocks of your map, there are still others for monitoring WBo2 and still others with an RPM input in the equation, and so on and so forth.
Its like there are a million people starting their own little projects using ways to get there that limit them to that one function that the software writer envisioned

then it struck me, like a vision of heaven, why not consolidate everything that we have out there into one peice of software using the edge card scanner concept, no more worries about ALDL rates, could in the future rig up a way to flash program flash eproms still in the ecm,and leave room for a WBo2 sensor input. Youd virtually never have to leave your neighborhood to get your car tuned to run like a swiss clock.

Now im no computer programmer or Electrical engineer, and I really have no desire to become one just to write one piece of software. Im also a capitalist and i like to reward people that have become those things. This is why i would gladly pay upwards of 300 dollars for such a setup.
I dont know the whole logistics of the thing and dont pretend to so im just putting this out there, i couldnt tell ya if it would be hard to make useable for a variety of ecms, but details just get in the way of dreams

discuss

 

It already exists,
Just a matter of time to see what path it takes.

What needs done is folks getting together and developing source code. Til that happens your stuck with just running in the circles GM wants you to run in.

One other piece of software needed would be something that lets you run dataloggec info on a ecm bench.

There is stuff going on in the background, but it may never see the light of day due to the clown in Australia. But, everyone was so quiet and greedy he got away with his piracy, and killed so much, and basically no one gave a damn, so for the lack of action or even writting a letter, folks just killed off alot of neat stuff.

Keep trying, never know when you might be first with an idea.

 

Also, I would prefer these things to remain "not for profit". Money does funny things to people.

 

I think trying to keep things not for profit may be the bane of many things in the first place. The whole concept is diametrically opposed to natural human tendencies. I think if you want to get things out there, in the hands of hotrodders, youd be further ahead to provide those very things at a price that would cover the cost of you not only developing it, but, also manufacturing it.

Money and greed will drive more progress than altruistic purposes any day, sad but true. Thats why marxism doesnt fly.

 

Fine go commercial, but do it off list, since this if DIY.
Seems like folks slip a gear on that.

It's the ready acceptance of well, it's the nature of things that will kill this hobby. No one gives a damn. If it takes more then hitting the reply key, folks can't be bothered, and half the time they are even to lazy to do that. Just look at how many folks are accepting piracy as a *norm*, it;s discusting.

Yep, DIY, means Do It Yourself,
to some of us it matters that money not be part of it.

 

I agree with Grumpy, in that diy is the only way to go. It not only helps people to learn a new way to do things but also gets our minds to think on a different level. Most not all who want to buy a plug-n-play, put it on and go system, also have someone else build their cars too. The members at TGO are better served ( just like a parent with a child ) to learn to think for themselves with help comming in the areas that are the hardest to learn. I didn't know what transpired with the Austailian guy when it happened and I wish there wasn't any more like him but I'm afraid that that's just wishful thinking.

Grumpy, Glen, Traxon and all those who pioneered this diy ecm board and opened it up to all who dare wish to attemt to program the own ecm, more power to you guys for leading the way. I will take the time hear and give you my sincerest

Thank You.

Please don't give up on us yet, we have to have mentors like yous guys.

Steve

 

nevermind, too off topic

 

Well,

I wouldn't pay 300+ dollars for such a setup, but I would gladly spend 300+ hours and $300+ in parts trying to do it myself. But that's where I get the enjoyment. Then again, I'm the kind of guy that would rather smelt his own steel than buy a new door hinge. Not to say that's the most efficient means.

With my software, I keep it open-source so that if someone has the ambition, they can easily take my work as a starting point to their own end. Don't know what else I can do. A few people have done some things like that, but nothing's really taken off.

There are a few programs out there and, admittedly, they have a variety of capabilities. I guess it's just a matter of what you want to do. Profit's not a bad thing, just gotta make sure it's not at the expense of the folk you're getting all the ideas & knowledge from. Like Bruce, I mean, if you get something from him idea or knowledge-wise, you ought not to try and turn a buck off it.

Anyways, my $.02. Not much of a profit margin I suppose. My break-point on money is if I'm making more doing for someone else than I would make in the same time spent at work, then it's wrong. Maybe that bar height is too low, I don't know. Then again, I'm not a Socialist, just a Republican.

-Craig

 

craig, i hear what you are saying.. and Im totally for people doing what they love to do. In fact im so much for it, that I think you should be rewarded for your efforts and the best way i can think of that happening is if you made a buck or two off of providing that product for others (im as right wing and capitalistic as the next guy- at the RNC maybe)


thing is, im not all that interested in learning to program in windows and the like. Im more interested in the mechanics of what gets a car down a track. I liken it to a crew cheif on a pro stock drag racing team in relation to an engineer at snap on tools. THe crew chief jsut needs a wrench so that he can accomplish some task at hand that may use that wrench, and many other things to get where he wants. Hes not too interested in how the wrench is fabricated or designed etc.. he knows what wrench he wants and maybe he has an idea for a better wrench but he doesnt have the drive or the means to design a fancier wrench. Thats why he buys them.. maybe he tells the snap on tool truck guy about a wrench hes thinking of, and that guy builds him one. He then buys it and goes on about his day. The snap on guy plays an important part in the prostock crewcheif doing his job because the crewchief cant be the snap on guy and the crewcheif all at once and the snap on guy cant be the crewchief.

hopefully what im getting at makes sense here

 

Hey, makes a lot of sense to me!!! I enjoy doing my own porting, turnin' wrenches, and custom fabricating a new bracket to stiffen the frame; so yea, my time is in short supply, and there are a lot of "tools" that personally I'd be better off to buy than to make myself. And I'd gladly pay for that tool or even better I'd offer to barter!

 

I think that sometimes the crew cheif is also the snap-on guy, and then a marketing guys jumps on it to try to grab some cash for nothing. So what are the prices........Snap-on or K-Mart?
I think that is you design something and want to make a buck off it............go ahead. Because all of the other work (billing, complaints, updates, etc) is what takes all of the time. The initial design is nothing compared to all this stuff. If someone makes something they are willing to support then they probably should sell it. If it is a little hacked up thing that works sometimes and doesn't work sometimes then it is probably better to just give away cause no money in the world is worth the headaches.
I am sure some people will take offense to this, but this really has nothing to do with DIY PROM anyway. It should be on the CASH PROM board.
J

 

I never realized there were some many philosophers on the board.... That is one of the reasons this place works so well. We have an extremely diverse cross-section of humanity here. (including the somewhat less-than-desireable it would appear...)

Pablo has some valid points. His insight into human nature is actually fairly accurate. Money is an excellent motivator. However, it would seem to me, that most folks on this board hang out here because they enjoy what they do, and want to help others enjoy it as well. (and that is an extremely wonderful gift) As for the folks that are just learning (this would be the category I fall into), this board is by far the best resource I have found when it comes to things thirdgen. I have been around here for a couple years now, and have come to recognize several folks that are always willing to help out someone with a question, at no charge, which I thought was the whole point of this board.

In any event, if someone wants to spend the time, effort, and resources to develope a tool that combines all the neat tricks I have seen separately, that would be really cool. If they want some compensation for it, then they better be ready to support it as well. (working in the computer industry, I can tell ya that support is a black hole for money and time..........) Finding someone with the skill set required, and the drive to do so may be a good trick though. Maybe, in a few years, someone will do so, but, I am not going to hold my breath.

Thanks for all the help folks.

 

Unfortunately, once "something" starts getting done "for profit", soon EVERYTHING gets done for profit.

Imagine what this Board would be like if EVERYONE was out to make a buck? Bruce (Grumpy) - the most knowledgeable person would not be here. And you'd have a Moderator like Edmond Indres (aka Blade, Synergy, crucial, NRG, Prodigy) ripping people off and then telling them to take a flying leap.

Half the members would be "sharing" all the software behind everyone's back (piracy) anyway and the other half would be trying to figure out how to "crack it" or develop a "slightly new and improved version for a few pesos more". Then, for a lot of people that cannot afford TunerCat or Diacom would not have the benefit of a free scan tool like Craig's (though Craig does accept donations) or WinBin.

And last, but not least, how can you trust a "recommendation" from someone that stands to make a financial gain? Right now, when I tell someone that a Hypertech, ADS, or even a custom prom burnt by someone that didn't have access to the car is going to be less than optimal - I say this because "this is the truth"....not because I have some "financial motivator".

Be careful for what you ask for....you may just get it. And when you do, you may not like what you got.

 

Money is BS.
It so trivial, as to be hardly worth mentioning.
Yes, you need ot have some income to afford things, but it shouldn't play a role in what motivates you. If it does you in for a long sad life.
BTDT
Life's too short for doing otherwise.

Having a WB frees you to have more time enjoying your car..

 

One of the problems with the profit motive in a project (projects) like this is that since the likely market for a product is not of really huge size, the per unit price of software must be high to ensure a return of significant size. This implies that the software designer must protect it from copying and only distribute the executable code - not the source code. Immediately there goes the option of easy collaboration on software improvement. Craig's code could be (and some are interested in this) be made compatible with Windows (or Linux or Palm OS) since anyone can look at the underlying code and do what is required. The only ethical requirement would be his approval and an understanding NOT to profit from his work.
Once profit enters the picture, this kind of collaboration gets really messy. This DIY project is of the size where "open source" is the way to go. Anyone who has played around with Linux/KDE can see how well this can work.

Profit is a good thing. Doing something for the love of it, however, doesn't make one a socialist :-).

 

What I find funny, is the people that probably could make money and stand the most to gain if they became "profit-oriented" are the one's trying to keep it a "free world" and try to help guys out from the goodness of their heart.

In fact, I bet if Bruce (and pals) were to charge for the DIY WB material (but left a "hole" to get it for free), there were be even more people interested in DIY WB O2. But, because the info is free, not as many people are interested (that should be). Human nature is really funny sometimes.

 

Probably done in C. There is C source for ALDL reading that has been freely available before Craig's code.

Yes, linux code = free. Want support too = Redhat, Caldera, etc.

You make some good points.
J

 

Lets face it, money is an enabler, and a well executed product can snowball profits and development like nothing else. Id hate to see (sarcasm) what some of these guys could come up with if they did this full time, and had a decent budget to do R&D for any kookey idea they might have.
As it is now, the whole theme of some sort of collective that brews up some new gizmo every now and then just is not the case. 95% of the people here are just waiting around for A) advice, or general knowledge on how to do the most basic things or B) more tools and gadgets to do those basic things even better. Every time there is some sort of new thing abrewing, it almost never ever ever happens in the open anyways.. its "behind the scenes" because sometime way back when I imagine some cliques formed and so and so doesnt like so and so so they dont want htem knowing what they are designing cuz so and so will do this or that with it, I get so tired of reading that BS. Spare it and just sell the stuff! you name a price. I can hack that much better than all the "mystery" and whatnot.
You can slippery slope this all day, the what ifs, etc but fact is, if it hasnt happened allready, its not going to happen "all of the suddne" *ding!* like a light. Natural human tendencies apply to the consumer aswell, get as most for your money or preferebly free. Its a natural balance, they can try commercializing it all they want but there will always be competition, and people dont have loyalties. Trying to guide it one way or another is like when you let a centrist or your run of the mill democrat get ahold of our economy.

My personal take on it can be summed up in one cliche "Why be a small fish in a lake when you can be the biggest fish in a pond"

 

bah im just stirring up stuff! hah