KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

OK so my car hasn't been able to crank for like 2 weeks already!!! I'm pretty confused! I don't think its a vats issue because i checked the pellet on my key for resistance and it matches the orange wire under the dash when the key is in the on and off position. Also the security light comes on and turns back off like normal. I have checked all my fuses to see if they were burnt out and they all check out fine. When I attempt to start my car everything is normal, guages, lights, ect but it wont crank, all i hear is my starter relay that is under my feet click.
What could it Be?

My car: 1989 IROC-z Camro
350 TPI W/T-56
it has an 88 wiring harness and 88 ECU

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Only one way to find out; check for power into and out of the starter relay when the key in START position.
If you have no power in to relay ( yellow wire ?)check the Ign switch
If you have power out there check your clutch safety switch for the same

Run a wire from the starter solenoid terminal ( purple wire ) and touch it on the Batt Pos terminal to see if the engine cranks.
If it doesn't ,your problem is with the starter itself.

Lynn1990IRocZ

Love seeing the detailed post with clear instructions of what to check, most people would've just said check the starter

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for the reply! so i just checked to see if my starter soleniod terminal (purple wire) was getting power, and it is. with the key in acc mode it gets 7.8 volts and in the on position it gets around 9.8 volts. i then hotwired it to the battery and it still didnt crank.


Could it be a vats issue?
or could the starter just be completely dead? i do have a spare one i will go switch them and see if that fixes anything.
Thanks again

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Most likely found you problem
Replace / get the starter working by hot wire 1st then go back and check what I outlined above if it still doesn't crank over

The purple wire @ solenoid should only have power on it when key in the START position.
If it has power when in RUN your starter would be operating when the engine is running

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

purple wire should have 0v in acc and on position, so i would check the relay and make sure it is not staying on all the time ... but if it has power in acc and on, it should have the starter engaged all the time ... maybe recheck that you have the right wire you are testing ... the purple wire will be going to the small post on the starter, that is also where you need to put the wire on it that you will touch to the B+ side to see if you can manually engage the starter (you can just jump it from the big post to the little post on the starter with an old screw driver, but there is not much room there)

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Is not relay problem , even if the relay was stuck in the On position ,it only has power going through it when the yellow wire is hot from the Ign switch

If the switched circuit of the relay has power to it in any position other than START then the Ign switch is faulty

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the help guys. I just rechecked everything, and everything is getting power. the purple wire that goes to my starter gets 0 volts on acc and gets 11 volts at the start position. I tried to hot wire the starter again and no luck. so everything is pointing to my starter or the ign switch! kind of a noob question but the ign switch is located in the key cylinder right? hopefully i have time to change my starter tomorrow and see if that fixes anything. Thanks again guys! i appreciate it

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

if it gets power to the purple wire at the starter in the start position, is not the switch (and that is lower in the steering column with a rod running from the key cylinder to it) ... you have it down to 3 things, one is a bad starter, the other is the B+ wire to the starter could be lose or your motor is not grounded

one easy way to test for ground to the motor would be to hook a set of jumper cables to the B- side of the bat. and find a good clean place on the motor (not the motor mount) and clamp it right to it or a clean paint free bracket (but i suspect it is going to be the starter is bad or a loose B+ wire at the starter)

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

So today I removed my starter and i tested it with a set of jumper cables and a screw driver. The starter checked out ok. I also replaced my B- and B+ terminals with new ones since mine were pretty wore out and the PO kinda hacked them. But i still dont think thats going to fix my problem, i think its more of a vats issue or maybe the ignition switch

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

if you are getting power to the purple wire with the key in the start position, it is neither the switch or the vats, either of those would not give power to the purple wire on the starter ... so, when the starter was in the car, did it even click at the starter when in the start position? ... if it did, it is still most likely the starter, just because it will turn with no load on it does not mean it is good ... if it did not click at the starter, it is most likely that the motor is not grounded right

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

When the starter was in the car and the key was in the START position it wouldnt do anything at all, everything else was normal, gauges, fuel pump priming ect. The car used to fire right up though, then about amonth ago the starter just stopped. Tomorrow ill install the starter and my new terminals and see if that fixes it but im in doubt...

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

check the block end of the ground too, i have had a few get loose at the crimp spot, give it a bit of a tug, and make sure it is holding tight ... also, if you have room, hook all the wires to the starter and let it lay under the car, use the jumper cables to ground the starter to the block and see if it will turn over with the key (it is going to twist, so make sure the power wires can not touch anything) ... if still nothing, move the jumper cables to the B- post, and try it again ... one of those two should crank the starter ... if it cranks hooked to the B- then you know the ground to the motor is bad

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

so, any word on what was wrong with this one yet?

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

well i hooked everything up and it still doesn't crank, it has to be a vats issue or the ignition switch. I'm going to try bypassing the vats with a resistor and if it still doesn't work im going to replace my ignition switch, i was really hoping that is was something simpler though. But on the bright side i get to learn something new. I always get to learn something new since my car always keeps on breaking on me!! i still love my thirdgen though

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

if you are getting power to the purple wire at the starter when the key is in the start position, i don't think its going to be the vats or the switch ... did you ever try to "jump" the starter while it was in the car, by putting a screw driver from the big post to the little post on the starter? ... if there is power to the big post on the starter, and power to the little post on the starter when the key is in start, it almost has to be a bad block ground

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

[quote=Barlow8869;5684831]if you are getting power to the purple wire at the starter when the key is in the start position, i don't think its going to be the vats or the switch ... did you ever try to "jump" the starter while it was in the car, by putting a screw driver from the big post to the little post on the starter? ... if there is power to the big post on the starter, and power to the little post on the starter when the key is in start, it almost has to be a bad block ground[/quote
i jumped the starter while it was out of the car. ill try to jump it tomorrow with everything hooked up like you told me too and see what happens. hopefully it is a bad ground somewhere, but i checked the strap, and the 2 ground wires in back of the cylinder heads and they all look good. i also got new terminals.

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

one other thing it could be is a bad battery ... it could be holding volts, but no amps ... did you try to jump the car with another car?

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

cool ... see, the thing is, the starter its self does not care about the vats or the switch, it only cares if it gets power to the small post with the key in start(or power from any other place), power to the big post, and a good ground ... if you give it those 3 things and it is a good starter, it will turn the starter, no matter what the vats or the switch is doing

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

well the battery was a little low so i switched it with the battery on my vette and it still does the same thing. Even the battery that was in the camaro works perfect in the vette

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

well i just went outside and i jumped the starter. the first method was with the screw driver and the starter didn't do anything. my second method was with jumper cables. i wired them to the battery then i hooked the B- side to the starter and the starter cranked.

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

ok, at least you know that is one less thing it could be

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

so, you grounded the starter with the cables? ... if so, try putting the cables from the B- to the block someplace ... like the header bolts or something

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

Well the starter only engages when i ground the B- cable directly to the starter. Im out of ideas

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

put a ground strap from the starter to the block, or try another starter ... although that makes no sense, if the block is grounded, the starter is grounded ... still sounds like the ground to the block is bad

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

could you post a pick of where the ground goes to the block?

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

yes, ill do it first thing in the morning

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

Pic

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

i know it is tough to see there, and i dont want to sound like an ***, but did you sand or wire wheel the head there before you put it on ... and did you ever try to run the jumper cables from B- to a nice clean place on the block ... unless there is some way the starter is not touching the block (and i dont see how that could be, unless it has rubber or plastic coating on the nose cone) it should be working ... if you run a cable from B- to the starter and can go in and crank it with the key, i just do not see how the the block can be getting ground ... hook a test light yo the B+ on one side, and hook the ground side to a clean place on the block ... then to the back of the starter (but not to a powered post) ... then to the nose cone of the starter (where the bolts go or anywhere around there on the starter) and make sure it lights in all those places ... if it does ... if it does, it may be something inside the starter that you could rig for now by adding a ground wire from the back of the starter to the starter bolt (just make sure it is a heavy gauge wire) and that would get you on the road till you can get a new one ... but i still think the block is somehow not getting good ground ... also, if you can get that ground out of there, use the test light on the B+ side and the other end of the ground cable just to make sure it is not broken inside the cover

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

I would like to thank you Barlow for all the help. i think im just going to let the car sit for awhile until im ready to work on it again since im pretty frustrated. Again thank you i appreciate it.

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

you are welcome, sorry we couldnt her her going

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

ok balrow last attempt here. i got myself a test light and the block is in fact grounded. the light turns on when i touch the block. also im getting no volts to the purple wire in acc mode and 12.1 volts with the ignition in the on position. the other wires on the starter are also getting a steady 12.1 volts. and now the cars does not start even when i ground the starter directly to the battery. everything is working like it should the car is just not cranking. could this be a faulty ignition switch somehow?

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

Or a bad starter relay

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

you should not be getting power to the purple wire on the starter with the key in acc or the run position, only in the start ... if you are getting power to the purple wire in the run position, i am at a loss and the only thing i could tell you from here, is try to find someone with a starter they could lend you, and try that ... if you are not getting power to the purple wire on the starter, take your test light under the the dash on the steering column and check power at the switch ... if you are getting power to the purple wire with the key in the start position and the block has good ground, it sure sounds like a bad starter

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

only thing the starter needs to work is 1.power to the post the purple wire goes to ... 2. power to the large post that comes right from B+ ... 3. a ground ... if you give it those 3 things and it still will not turn the starter, it is bad ... if you can get an alligator clip and some wire on the post that the purple wire to the starter are hooked to, and you touch it to the B+ the starter should turn right over for a quick test

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

yes, the purple wire only gets 12.1 volts when i turn the key to the START position. large post gets a steady 12.1 volts. the starter is also grounded, i checked it with a test light. i also bought a new starter and it does the same exact thing.

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

THERE!!!! its done. i fixed it!!!. replaced my ground cables on the back of the cylinder heads after that the car cranked once. took the starter out and it was burnt out replaced it now it works again!! thank you Barlow for everything i appreciate it!!

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

woohoo ... so glad she lives again ... hope i was of some help, and glad you didnt give up

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

HAHA So what do you know car wont crank again! This time my purple wire wasnt getting any power so Im done with the frustration and im going a different route so I wont ever have to deal with this issue ever again!! I made a custom push start button for my car Ill posst a little write up for anyone interested.

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

pics