hattmuber

I'm hoping some one has dealt with this before. I'm at my wits end.
here's the story.
had bad rheostat. Dash lights worked, but no dimmer. Either they were were on, or off.
no left signal self cancel.
no brights. Rod out of adjustment.
inaccurate tach.
wobbly steering column.

got a new directional switch from Hawk's.
got a new headlight switch, same source.
got a new tach chip.
fixed wobbly column.
adjusted dimmer rod.

now everything works perfectly.. until the headlights are turned on.
with the lights on, I get no warning chime, no dash lights. But both directional lamps are lit, bright lamp is lit. Half of gauges go haywire.
With lights on, directionals do not work
the brights indicator turns off, when I turn hi beams on.
But, when I turn dome light on, all goes normal, except a constant headlight warning chime.

heres what I've done.
verified proper power on headlight switch, and relevant wires.
verified proper power to cluster.
tried 4 different headlight switches. Original, one I had laying around, 2 new ones.
tried old directional switch.
checked pin out on all correlated connections.
checked cluster PC board for shorts and continuity.
tried old tach chip
all same results.
please help. I'm seriously about to destroy this car, I've already stopped my self mid swing, As I've been struggling with this for over a week.
thanks in advance..

hattmuber

Also just discovered, if I shut the door and the dome light goes off, all the gremlins come back, the same as if I turn off dome light via switch

hattmuber

Also works when the cluster lights are turned off via dimmer switch.. IE directional lights and brights indicator go out, and head light warning chime turns on as it should.

hattmuber

Thinking maybe because the cig lighter and defrost not being plugged in had some thing to do with it, I plugged them in, and turned lights on. Same results, just with a really loud buzz added that's not a even a sound the car normally makes.... WTF.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Check the ground for the inside, I think there is one under the center console, I'd have to look for the other one. Also check the grounds for the head lights, I think they are on the back of the radiator support behind the headlights.

hattmuber

Thanks scooter. I'll check them. Even though I was never in those areas, and didn't have the issue beforehand, I'm not ruling anything out.
I did notice and inspect a ground that is located under knee panel against center console (near heater/radio). That checked out.
I'll check the others after work. Thanks again.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

I agree 100% with scooter , the fault description sounds like the classic case of missing Ground(s) .

I say "Ground(s)" because I don't want hattmuber to discount the possibility that more than one ground connection could be missing here . Were this mine to troubleshoot ? i'd be checking every single ground connection starting at the battery and not ending till I found the open connection(s) .....

hattmuber

Thanks Orange.
I agree with the concept of a ground being the issue. Just don't understand how it could have failed in an area I haven't been. I do wonder aboutdirectional switch wire colors were not the same, as Factory but all terminals align, except 2. Which go into the same terminal on switch. So I didn't think much of them thinking they were grounds. How ever there is a difference on the switch I now question, but don't take much respite with because of having tried the old one.. I'll take a pic of what I speak of later to see what y'all think.
thanks again dudes!

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I can look in the Firebird service manual to tell you where the grounds are inside the car. I think there may be 3, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

hattmuber

You guys are awesome. I thank y'all very much.
here's a visual.
Key on, lights on, dome light switched on. All normal. Signals work fine. Bright indicator works fine.

Please dont take my thinking out loud as my distrust in any ideas. I only do so, so there is no information missed, to give yall a better picture. Thanks again guys. Ill post pic of switch question later.


Key on, Dome light off. Fubar! Flick the brights on, indicator goes out, and warning chime on constant..

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

What happens when the key is OFF and you perform the other operations described in your previous tests ?? Headlights, Dome, Beam should all work normally when the key is off.

Your column had more than a couple problems,..... I'm wondering if the ignition box at the base of the column is screwed up. ( good idea to try what you tried already - but without touching the key. )

Also wonder if there might be a bad/melted/burnt headlight switch plug. ( seen melted headlight switch plugs several times over the years. )

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I don't think this is as simple as a loose ground. This really is FUBAR. Do you have proper wiring schematics, like found in the GM service manual? This is complicated enough that I don't think you're going to figure this out without those schematics.

Maybe tackle the most simple problem first and work your way up to the most difficult and look for common themes. I'm getting this info from a '88 Firebird service manual. Having access to a service manual for your car would be better.

A) High Beam Indicator Lamp (in the gage panel) is powered only by the Headlight Dimmer Switch that gets power from the Light Switch. The High Beam Indicator Lamp is literally on the same circuit as the Headlights, so the headlight high beams and Indicator Lamp should be in synch. If the headlights aren't doing the right thing either then the problem is likely in the Light Switch. If only the High Beam Indicator Lamp is misbehaving then the problem is probably in the wiring between the Headlight Dimmer Switch and the light bulb in the gage panel.

B) RH and LH Turn Indicator (in the gage panel) is powered by the Turn/Hazard Switch. That can get it's power from the Turn Flasher or the Hazard Flasher and each of those is on a different fuse. The Hazard Flasher will turn on both lights at the same time and the lights could stay on if the flasher is bad. Pull the STOP HAZ fuse and see if the RH and LH indicator lights go out in the dash. (Pulling that fuse will also remove power from the warning chime too.) If the Turn Indicator Lamps go out then you know the lamps are being powered by the Hazard side of the switch, not the turn signals. If the lights don't go out then there is probably something wrong with the Turn/Hazard Switch. Well actually... I guess there is probably something wrong with that switch no matter the result. Probably need a new Hazard Flasher too.

C) The warning chime is a bit more difficult. The Audio Alarm Assembly has 3 power sources and 4 grounds. The STOP HAZ fuse is constant power input, and the GAGES fuse is switched power input. The Light Switch is the third power input. The door jamb switch is one of the ground paths, and that just happens to be common ground with the dome light switch. Your symptoms are strange and I still don't know what to think about it.

I've just got a gut feeling the headlight switch is wired wrong or not correct pinouts for your year vehicle. Probably the case that your turn/hazard switch is bad, too.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I would tend to agree. But if all of those things are sharing a common ground, which I think most of them are, and the ground is not great/bad, then since some of them share wiring on the ground side, putting power to one side of another circuit that shares the ground, but no ground, may cause the circuit to be complete through the other circuit. That is how the fog lights work on these cars, later years anyway, the fog light or fog light relay grounds through the high beam filament, this could be a similar situation. He hasn't mentioned anything about wires being hacked, so if everything is factory correct a ground issue could be the problem.

One thing that also leads me to think it is ground related is that the door switch is part of it working properly, since that is ground side switched, it would be another path to ground for the other circuits

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Concerning the Audio Alarm Assembly, the only ground of real importance is G200 that is attached to the metal dash rail just left of the steering column.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

So I notice in the pictures below that a lot of the dash light bulbs turn off when the dome light is turned off. Definitely need to see real electrical schematics for your car. All that feeds from the interior lights dimmer. Another sign the Light Switch is wrong part or wired up wrong.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

This site has a mix of 1992 schematics from Chilton's style manuals and GM service manuals. I'd not have much faith in the Chilton stuff but the GM stuff is always great.

http://www.austinthirdgen.org/index.php?pid=44

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

So I found a little more info about how the audio alarm works. The STOP HAZ fuse powers the unit and powers the Ignition Key Warning. The GAGES fuse powers the Seatbelt Warning. The Light Switch powers the Lights On Warning but the warning will be deactivated if the unit senses voltage from the GAGES fuse.

So there is more than one power source for the alarm (and more than one ground). Probably worth your while to figure out which is the source when dome light goes off. That will probably lead you to one of your problems.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Looking at the factory schematic for the 91 Firebird, Instrument cluster, light switch, convenience center and many others are all on the same ground, all connect to G200. Book says this connects "Behind LH side of I/P, on convenience center bracket". This bracket is grounded to the firewall, so it is possible you have bad grounds connected from the bracket to the firewall

Seeing the exterior light circuit and knowing that all those lights and gauges are connected to the same ground, an open or high resistance ground makes perfect sense with the symptoms you described. There is a logical path to ground through all the filaments in the lights. The door switch is also connected to the G200, so when that closes there is again a logical patch to ground, so everything works as it should.

To test, pull that ground off the bracket, put a screw through the eye and a decently heavy piece of wire wrapped around the screw. Tighten the nut up on it all and connect the other side to the body, take a piece of sandpaper and clean the paint off somewhere unnoticeable, and put the wire to the bare metal and see if that fixes everything

hattmuber

You guys are awesome! Thanks for the time put in for this! I didn't get to look very much tonight due to work being a real drag , but did get to read this and can give some more knowledge.
the wiring has no hacks, she is Clean and unmolested. (Ummm,, ya.)
there was one thing I thought of that changed between the time it was a-OK and fubar, (beside the already stated) was that I had to repair 3rd brake light (a relevant circuit) connection and got that operational for the first time in over a decade.

I'd love to think it was a bad head Light switch, and directional switch but what throws me is that I put the "functional" old Factory switches back in and had same results, of course keeping in mind that the switches could have been faulty and caused damage elsewhere. They are aftermarket So, anythings possible.

I don't have service manual. all I have is what's available from Austin.

I have given the schematics to 2 electrical engineers I work with (industrial) and have a current auto mechanic neighbor (young graduate of UTI) on this as well. One of each will be stopping by tomorrow afternoon.

first thing I'm going to do is check my 3rd light circuit.

I ASSURE YOU the info you have already given will be help full, it helps me and I'm just a clown.. lol, so please the more ideas, the better!
if I have to wave the white flag, and take this in, it will the first service I've ever had to pay for! As an ex auto tech. A motorcycle builder and machine tech, I just don't think my ego could take that at my age.... LMAO!
I'll check in later,
Cheers!
​

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I work in a building with probably 1000 engineers. I solve problems the same way you do!

hattmuber

I hope it's a successful tactic! One looked at the diagrams started laughing, and said "this is why I became an engineer, so could afford cars under warranty,,, " the other said "I hate car wiring it sucks".. so, I'm not out of the woods yet! But at least I'm not alone!

MikeP_82

Take the bulb out of the dome light. Problem Solved,sorta. Otherwise, you've got a bunch of electrical to trace out.

hattmuber

Ha! Mike, that was tried, but I still have mirror lights.. and I enjoy having a dome light. But I assure you, I'm not above that tactic.. I've owned this car since 95. The column went wobbly in 96. The left signal stopped cancelling in 98 brights rod came out if adjustment in 97. I bring this up because I'm obviously not opposed to living with a few ailments.. but it's a different time now, and was out to straighten her all out. If taking the bulb out was a viable fix, I wouldn't have it to fix because I would have never replaced the things that were flawed in first place that led me here and wouldn't have this to fix!! Lol
cheers!

MikeP_82

I would focus my electrical investigation near the column. Sounds like that might be the catalyst to this whole thing. Maybe a wire is frayed and grounding out on the column or something like that??

LT1/TA

If your steering column has been wobbly for 22 years,it may have rubbed the wires coming from the turn signal switch assembly inside the column and shorting out causing your problems just like MikeP_82 pointed out.I have seen the wires shorted before due to the column being loose.

hattmuber

Alright dudes, Sorry for all the suspense! I know you guys were all holding off on future plans with baited breath on this! Ha!
we got'r.
As was suspected, we had a ground issue.
one of my electrical engineering Co-workers came over, looked at prints, pinned out one of my extra switches. he then again looked at the prints for about 2 minutes, then got in to car, fiddled for about 1 more, than asked, "is this how it's all supposed to look?" As he's holding the rheostats ground tab from making contact from the frame of the switch, and a Normal dash!
​​​​​turns out I had a break if a few strands with in the casing of the headlight switch harness down line, no where near where I was in all my repairs.. All the fubar lights would search for a ground and use the dopers ground when it was switched on, and thus it would than go normal. In my fubar state, I also had a draw..
I only wish I could have that knack,, I can only imagine he knew visually what was under my dash before he even sat in it just by the prints. I did test that wire.. he also tested that wire. He just knew, no matter our test, it WAS THAT WIRE! so, he temporarily jumped from that lug on the switch to frame, and said , "replace that wire".. in total 20 minutes he was gone.
I replaced the wire, and we all good, lest my ego. But, I feel good about this humbling, as it only cost me a steak!
dudes, I can't thank y'all enough! I very much appreciate y'all having my back, beers for everyone, and cheers to it not being traded on a c5 Z06!

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I'll be damned. He's good!

I'd still get the C5 Z06. My friend's stock C5 Z06 with 3.90 gears and headers will walk LS3 Camaro and 5.0 Mustangs all day. It's stupid fast for what it is. Only going to faster if he touches the engine.

hattmuber

Ya, some people are impossibly talented.. its really cool how he doesn't even get into cars at all, and he humbled me, and a trained tech..Lol.

the Z06 is still on the potential roster. It's IMHO the best sports car bank for buck on earth right now. The 3rd Gen of the new era of you will...Getting in a Decent one is quite attainable for many.
truth be told, this concept is a driving factor to my repairing what I have been fine with for a long time, be a worthless sale if those basics on my car were in operable.
but, I gotta say, my car is no slouch, not Z06 fast, but enough to be fun when I'm not Riding a bike.
between that the other thing that made me question my Z temptation? I called to put "covered if you give it cross looks" insurance on it last night, I laughed out loud when he told me its upping my insurance by a whopping 18 a month Even with a higher claimed value.. That's appealing as hell! I can't have both, with 5 bikes a Camaro and a daily driver, my lady would torture me...
life is fun, there was a time when I paid over 200 a month to insure that car!
cheers!

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Maybe we should talk...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/mid-...ne-peoria.html

hattmuber

dang dude.. wasn't planning on having even more to contemplate! That thing sounds like a hoot!