Hello All. It has been a while since i've posted here. That said, i've had a lot of things going on in life and only recently have had the time, money, health and ability to direct attention back to my car. I have been diagnosed recently (within the last 2 years) with Multiple Myeloma Cancer, and cant physically work on the car anymore, i have a buddy who does it for me, but at this point we're stumped as to what my car's issue is. I really just want it dependable so i can enjoy driving it again while i can.

So here's a brief recap:

1992 Camaro RS 3.1l v6 5 speed - is what the car was when i bought it (factory produced)

1992 Camaro Z28 355l Holley Sniper EFI converted T5(IROC) 5 speed - is what the car is now. I say Z28, because i've replaced every mechanical suspension and mechanical part on this car to make it into a z28. The Engine, is NOT TPI, it is a 355 with Edlebrock Performer RPM Heads, Cam, air gap intake, with Holley Sniper EFI.

The Problem :
Randomly the car will not start. When you turn the key, it is dead stick. I say dead stick, as no matter what you do, it will not start with the key.
1.) you can push the car and pop the clutch to start it.
2.) If you wait a while, the car will start. Sometimes its 10 min, sometimes its 2 hours, sometimes 2 days. who knows.
3.) when you turn the key, there is nothing. no starter click, spin, or anything. no noise, no buzzer, no fuel pump, nothing.
4.) the holley computer screen reports STALL at the bottom of it, when this condition is encountered.

The Details: The car Has a motor swap as mentioned. The car runs a Holley Sniper EFI system, that controls the Fuel pump and all EFI. So the PCM on the car does not do that anymore.

The Vats system is bypassed. The steering column is out of another 92 camaro (not the one that came with the car) I soldiered the factory ignition key to the two yellow and white cables coming off the factory vats. box in the car and thus its bypassed. Besides, if it was a VATS issue, would it not Start and shut right off, or at least let me hit the starter with turning the key just never fire over?

The clutch pedal switch is brand new, and functioning properly, we swapped that out.
we also swapped out the entire Master, and Slave cylinder system of the clutch due to the original failing. So that is also all brand new.

The starter is a brand new PowerMaster Mini-Starter that has been not only bench tested but also on the car and is in perfect working order. Its not a heat wash issue, as it will do this when the car is ice cold still, as much as it will do this when the car has been driven.

The car has had its door handles shaved, I mention this, because I use a Viper 500 alarm system to pop the door poppers on the car. Instead of lock and unlock, its Pop driver, and Pop Passenger Door with the key fob. The viper is not connected to the starting system in the car, as i mentioned above, its all analog except the Holley sniper EFI which is directly controlling the fuel system.

Ignition system in the car is an Accel HEI distributer system which is also being controlled by the Holley Sniper system to my knowledge (again im not the mechanic due to my health now)

Recap: My car randomly will not start when the key is turned. I get in, i put the key in the ignition, put the clutch in, take the car out of gear and put it in neutral and try to start her. nothing. dash lights flash, but thats it. Im getting power, im getting no sounds though, she wont start no matter how many times i turn her over. The steering wheel is fairly solid, but a little wobbly when i pull down on her to the left, so i have always wondered if it needs tightening. other than that, the only thing i think it could be is the ignition itself. I'm not sure though, so Any help is greatly appreciated. I apologize for the long post, but i'm at a loss.. and really want / need this car to be dependable.

Thank you.
-steve

This one is easy ......

Since your running an aftermarket ECM with your Holley setup , you don't need VATS . In fact , the only last possible functioning (or more like semi functioning it sounds like) vestage of VATS in your case is the starter interrupt relay . Have your helper locate that relay behind the left hand kick panel (where your hood release pull is) and eliminate it , jump the two big wires together and tape off the two small ones separate from each other , and see if reliable starting returns . It's a pretty simple circuit ; the key switch , the neutral safety switch (or clutch switch if manual shift) and the VATS relay . Sure either of the key or neutral switches could be bad , but since VATS is no longer in control of your ECM it may as well not be there to kill your starter when it feels like it either

Orangebird.

Thank you for the insight on the VATS relay in the kick panel. is it the only relay there? if not how would i know which one to do? Im going to have my buddy do this asap. i went back out to the car 3 days ago to try to start it agian and still it wouldnt kick over. It is still doing the dead stick. no nothing. it's quite frusterating.

thank you in advance.

UPdate.

Tonight i went out and had my kick panel removed. there are no, as in zero, wires in the kick panel, and thus, zero relays as well. so I think its safe to say the VATS relay had already been removed from the car. This to me points even further to an ignition switch issue.

heres another thing though. I use a viper alarm system to POP my doors open as i hve no door handles currently. well i reached up into the dash to pull the alarm system down, and now it is no longer functioning either. so it wont open the doors, arm the alrm, or anything. which makes me wonder if the viper alarm isacting like the old vats and. electronically disabling the starter. I'd remove the viper entirely, but if i do that there is literlaly no way into the car again door wise, as i'd have to crawl through the hatch to get into the car. I personally cant do that anymore due to my health.

im just at a loss here now. i hve no idea what is the cause of the fail to start.

this below is my kick panel area, there is no relays as you can see. so i'm at a loss...



I was surfing youtube looking for examples /others who have the same problem and this guy had a similar issue.


if you watch his video, when he turns the key the car does nothing. his case he stated was resolved with.a new neuteral safety switch being adjusted and charging. his battery.

my car is a manual, so a neuteral safety switch is non existant, instead i have a clutch safety switch. this works fine last i knew, and the battery is perfectly charged. So yes, i could / can try to bypass the clutch safety switch again, see if that fixes it.... but other than that i have no clue... and lean towards issues in the column...

any help is greatly appreciated.

no ideas anyone? i really could use help here.

I think you're going to figure the issue out on your own. You're doing all the right steps, and searching in the right areas for issues.

I've seen problems with the starter solenoid circuit in the car before. The larger gauge yellow and purple wires run that through the ignition switch and neutral safety switch eventually send power to the starter solenoid. The ignition switch is the usual suspect on this. If develops a lot of internal resistance, which prevents the solenoid from engaging (voltage drop). I think VATS is in series with that circuit, and still something to inspect on your 92. Try checking the voltage at the solenoid with the key in the cranking position. If there is a large drop, (down to 5-8 volts or so) I would suspect that portion of the wiring.

Try bypassing the neutral safety switch/clutch switch like you were thinking. It would help in eliminating them as the issue.

Give your battery cables a good tightening. Inspect the positive lead going to the starter lug. I've thrown everything but the kitchen sink at starter issues in my car, and it turned out to be an internally damaged positive lead going to the starter. Sometimes it really is the simple things.

Thank you. I've not done anything with the car since i posted last because i Have cancer and cannot work on it myself anymore. I tried when i was getting the alarm and photos and hurt myself too much to do it again. I've since reached out to a friend of mine who has over 20 years in the car audio / security business and we're going to replace the Viper alarm entirely with a code alarm system. totally taking the old viper which is probably around 20 years old itself out of the equation. he did say hes seen viper alarms do this in the past and they have to be reprogrammed by a viper authorized dealer in order to function properly, and that is of course if they can be successfully reprogramed. What i'm hoping is that its a Viper issue, and that we can remove it and replace it with a modern unit that will controll my door poppers alone and be good to go otherwise. cause at this point im at a loss. If of course the alarm change out doesnt fix it, i would then have to lean towards the steering column itself, and the ignition cylinder/ wiring / controls in the column.

I will have my buddy check the voltage on the starter solenoid though while hes here getting into it and see if that is an issue. I'm also going to see if there is any point in keeping any of the remaining VATS left in the car. Since there is no more vats relay, and no more vats power in the kick panel, why have the VATS key soldered in the line anyways? its like to me Vats is pointless at this point and may not even be alive/ needed to be alive. one more thing i can remove from the wiring in the car is one more thing that simplifies things in the long run. or so i think, especially since the Holley Sniper EFI unit is controlling the fuel and everything to do with firing... The only other thing i will need to address is to get my Tachometer working on the dash, as it no longer does anything even with a new tach control board.

I'll also have my friend bypass the neuteral safety switch on the clutch to ensure that it is not an issue as well. better safe than sorry there again.. double check it as well.

thanks for replying at least someone did.

This is the wiring chart that i was given by the new alarm company to wire in the new alarm. It shows color of wires and what not i'll have to tap. this will be helpful to see how the old viper was /is wired versus how the new code alarm is supposed to be wired as well. It also hopefully will tell me if there is any current wiring issues witht he existing wires there.

Are you able to connect to the Sniper EFI unit to see if there is an immobilizer or some sort of security mode that may be enabled? In my opinion, anyone intelligent to install a standalone EFI system SHOULD have been smart enough to get rid of the VATS BS. I use the EBL Flash on my car, so I'm not super familiar with the Holley system. When the system reports "Stall" maybe there is an issue with re-allowing the starter to engage? Pretty uncommon, but does the Holley system have any output to trigger the starter solenoid?

As a last resort, you could try adding a remote switch/button for your starter. There are plenty of places under the dash to pull a key on +12 volts. That would for sure tell you if the problem is in the circuit between the ignition and solenoid.

The Holley system is stand alone from everything else in the car from what ive been told. I dont know for sure as i didnt install it, my mechanic shop did. It controlls the new fuel. pump too, as i know the mechanic also bypassed the factory wiring to control the fuel pump so that the holley would have full control over the fuel system. I dont know if the holley reporting Stall is something that is actually

I dont remember if i mentioned this before, but last time it failed to start with key, i got it home by having it pushed down hill and me popping the clutch. So the fact that popping the clutch fired it up, tells me it isnt vats / security related too... thoughts on that?

I've thought about having the push button start/ remote start button installed. i thought that may fix my issues regardless of the key cylinder issue. other than having the key and putting it to the on position, then pushing the clutch in, and pushing the start button it should fire up. it would bypass the issue im having with it starting with the key at least. its not a option i would consider eliminated either. i'd be open to it as a last result type solution.

i think that one of the hardest things about this is that im not the one working on it directly anymore because physically i just cant get down there to do it. . my body just wont let me without serious pain and problems.

So i have updates.

My buddy who is a car audio/security installer with 21 years experience under his belt was here for about 3 hours tonight working on the car. we first removed everything from the old alarm. we found that the old viper did not have a starter kill solenoid installed, and in fact didnt have anything starter kill at all associated with it. He then spent some time tracking /tracing the wires back and seeing what each wire went to, and installed the new code alarm. the new code alarm is now installed, and is functioning properly for the doors and the alarm system itself. It actuates the lights properly, as well so at this time, we know for a fact its not the alarm system and its not the VATS system.

While troubleshooting, he noticed a wire loose in the column/ignition harness and when he investigated it it pulled free from inside the base of the column, it was a thicker wire, and yellow in color. See the photo i've attached below :


that thick yellow wire usually was under that black plastic column peice that it is now above. from the wiring diagram definition i posted a post or two above from crutchfield, they say that the yellow wire in the ignition harness is the starter wire. when my buddy checked the wire out, it had 12v positive going from it. So what we think has happened is that the little bit of play in the steering column has caused the wire to be sheared off, split, or cut, somehow. thus causing me not to have the ability to start the car. in the past the intermittence must have been because the wire was close to being totally sheared off but just not quite yet, and me using the tilt steering wheel effect only caused more issues over time causing it to totally split. or at least this is my working theory at this time. any input is appreciated. thoughts? comments? anything helpful please say something.

thank you.

Well tonight my buddy came by again tonight to help troubleshoot again. He wanted to double check the Clutch Safety starter switch to be sure since he himself never verified it and only the first mechanic did. I said fine im all good with double checking it, cause it would be an easy fix if it was just mis-aligned or something. so he pulls it down, and tests it with his electrical tools, and wouldnt you know. intermittent function. We finally think we found the issue. Why the simple thing is always the issue i'll never guess. I also have learned to double check things yourself, because evidentilly the first. mechanic was wrong. In his defense though the old switch did seem to be a bit loose and not fitting securely so it could have been the culprit the whole time that it just needed adjusted like the neuteral start switches on the automatics do. who konws.

Long story short, it was the clutch safety switch. It cost 6.09 at O'reilly's auto parts. its in the car now and starting every single time. Im so relieved its nothing in the steering column itself.

Thank you all for your help, input, thought, and just reading my whining.

Fan-freaking-tastic. Glad you got it sorted out. I wish more people would have chimed in towards the beginning, but you still got it figured out. At the very least, this thread may help someone in the future with a similar issue.

RJ,
so did i . i must admit i was disappointed in the lack of responses. I pray that this is the actual issue, and is now completely fixed as it appears to be now. I too hope that this does help others who may have a similar issue. In the end, being a help to our other third gen members is the goal of all this, not just solving my issue, but solving it and making a record so others who need info like it can have it to fix what ever issue they may have.

but yeah, im glad its sorted now, and pray that it really is the culprit, and that it is now fixed permenantly as it appeared to be when we were testing the switch in the car and having it start up repeatedly with the new switch. Thank you for your kind words and help.