acidpad

I have a '91 camaro RS with a V6 right now. Ive been looking into doing an engine swap on it but im not sure which engine to go with. A good frined of mine is building up a big block for his 69 firebird, and hes trying to convince me to build up a 454 for my camaro. I want to be able to still use my car as a daily driver though, but the person that owned my camaro before me beat the hell out of the engine, and it only gets about 10 mpg in the city, so im looking to attain at least that. if i do a big block, i think im looking to go MPFI rather than carbs, but is it worth it and will i be able to attain a minimum of around 10 mpg ? i have also been thinking about going with an aluminum block for the 454. my other option is to go with a 350 and build that up, or to even buy a crate 350 / 383. Im planning on replacing the transmission with a 6 speed richmond (i have an automatic right now, so that should be fun too), and i know i need to replace the rear end, but i need suggestions on that to. any input on this swap would be helpful. thanks.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Welcome aboard.

A question for you 1st: Do you have to go through emissions inspection/testing? If so, forget the big block. It will also limit your options for a small block.

The V6 to V8 swap is a pretty big chunk to bite off by itself, but if you're willing to talk about things like MPFI on a big block, then the swap itself is just another part of a big project. That's assuming you have a clue what you're up against, that is.

Most any small block should be able to give you 15 MPG. Big blocks don't necessarily reduce it that much, though. But, a 10-mpg V6 is just sick.

You won't necessarily have to change the rear end, either, as the V6 and V8 factory parts were the same (with regard to strength). But, a healthy SBC or BBC will likely bring it to an early death anyway.

acidpad

as far as emissions go, i live in NW ohio, and as of right now, there arent any emissions testings that im aware of, at least none that i have heard about. so i guess even if there are emissions testings around here, nobody abides by them, so im not ENTIRELY too worried about emissions. Holley just put out a MPFI kit for a BB, its like the commander 950 or something like that, so thats how im going to go about fuel injecting it. thanks for the info on the rear end also. i was looking around here, and i saw some people runing 454s with stock V6 suspension .... is that really a good idea ? Also, will i need to go fuel injected to obtain > 10 mpg on the BB ?

86 sc

why mpfi over carb? not saying it's bad just wondering what your reasons are.

acidpad

the reason that im looking at a MPFI system rather than carbs is simply because i dont think im going to be able to get the gas mileage that im looking for if i go carburated. Id like to go with cabs because it is a decent amount cheaper, but i want this to be a daily driver. so i think im stuck with the mpfi.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

How much does this system cost, $2500? $3000? $4000?

How much gas can you buy for $4000?

86 sc

thats a good point! but I think efi is more fun I took some classes last year and now i understand efi a little better it's pretty cool, but don't get me wrong when i build my bbc i will go carb just my two cents

acidpad

so back to the real question, 454, 383, or 350. aluminum, or cast iron block. crate or buildup. remember, gas mileage is an issue, more so at this point than money, because this is going to be a long term project.

acidpad

from the guy who is helping me build the engine on the fuel system debate "
$2600
MPFI kit is $2400 (intake, computer, wiring, and throttle body included) …..CALMAP software is $200
He is mounting a PC in his car anyway… just because he has one extra laying around. When ohio gets emissions testing (who knows how long but the democrats will eventually make it happen) you can adjust your air/fuel mixture to pass emissions (with a couple catalytic converters.)

$850
Carb x 2 @ 245/ea = $490 dual-quad intake for BB $320 linkage $40
Eats more gas, cannot convert pass emissions for your life, and don't forget about 2 hours a month tuning your carbs. Linkage is never fun to setup.

Difference is $1750 but you'll have to throw a ton of money at it or crank it way down to pass emissions within 10 years… assuming that you haven't wrecked your car or blown your engine. Its also easier to supercharge or add nitrous to fuel injection due to the CALMAP software by ACCEL. add this to increased throttle responce, being able to just start your car and go without warm-up time, and not having to worry about flodding your engine when you stomp on it.... you make the call... but plan on the same HP when its all done (probobly around 800-1000 HP the way he picks his parts)
"

RB83L69

A dual 4-barrel setup is not a daily driver. Don't fall for that. And, unless you have a 600 inch Pro Mod motor, your car will probably go faster with a single 4-barrel than with anything else made on top of it anyway.

If you want a cheap to build, fast car that's still cheap to drive, what I'd suggest is a flat-top 350 with Vortec heads; small-tube headers, such as Edelbrock TES or similar, for a 350 TPI car, and the whole rest of the exhaust system to match, all the way to the street; a Comp XE262H cam; Performer Vortec intake; Holley 6210 carb (650 CFM man sec dbl pumper); and a L69 air cleaner. Put a good high-flow cat (Catco for instance) on it and you'll have no trouble making it through emissions testing. Put a V8 700-4R in it (same as what you've got, just get a 90s V8 one instead) and 3.42 gears.

I would not recommend a big-block swap into one of these cars for a daily driver, especially not for someone who hasn't done motor swaps before.

Most likely, if you build the motor above, and your friend builds a dual 4-barrel 454 for his 1st gen, you'll win the race, from what I can see; and you'll be getting 18-20 mpg while he's getting 6-8; and you won't be fighting constant tuning issues, broken parts, special single-source stuff, etc.

acidpad

im not necessarily looking for a cheap to build, and i am definantly going to go with a 6 speed manual tranny. while i dont have motor swap experience on an F body, i do have a little experience in motor swaps from a 1966 scout 800 that i have. a bit more room, straight swap (same motor), same general concept. im looking to invest more than a little money into my car, so long as the performance that i get from it will be worth it.

Meyaht

you could always just build up a sbc and run tubos . you say your willing to spend big bucks, you get the extra power of a big block, but dont have to worry about the traction problems off the line as much. you also wouldnt have to worry about adjusting the firewall position like you would for a big block. theres a post around here about a 427 sbc with twin turbos getting 1200 HP at 7k on the tach.

im sure ill change my mind again and post a different opinion soon.

rich88gta

if money is not an option....I would go with a 502 and put this on it http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...56&prmenbr=361

92superram

I'd say go with the small block. Our cars already have too much of a front weight bias. If the car was purely a drag racer, a big block would be fine, but for a street car, you could build a sweet 427 sbc for less than a big block. And with that, you could use a modified lt1 intake($400) new injectors($? I don't know how much they would be, but you would need big ones. probibly around 300-$400) a thirdgen gen computer($40 or so at the junk yard) wiring harness ($250 or so) and all the prom burning stuff. You'd probibly want a big monoblade 1300cfm Throttle body too. You could have a custom efi system for under $2000. This setup could be capible of 600hp, and loads of torque.

9.0L Firebird

A 406 or 421 is a killer combination. MPFI on a BBC is getting easier to come by, but it is still expensive. Be realistic with your budget. it is easy to start talking about quad turbo 600 inch aluminum motors but those parts and the the requisite drivetrain parts will easily get you over budget. There is nothing wrong with a little bench racing every once in a while, but make sure you have the coin (and the expertise) to finish the whole job.

Soulrev

Well right now where I live you could buy 3,200 gallons for 4,000 dollars. :lala:

Meyaht

they sell 115 octane at the gas station next door to my appt complex for $4.20/gal. .. so that is 952 gallons. kinda makes you glad they inented recessed pistons huh?

Spifz

Well, you don't need to modify the firewall for a big block. Its a bolt in replacement. I know, I did it. I'm looking at a fuel injection system for my 454 at this time. I get 14 mpg and I have 3.50's in the rear with a .68 5th gear. You might do better with your 6 speed. Why do I want fuel injection? Because my grandfathers 454 gets 17 mpg in his suburban *while* he's pulling an airstream trailer. A big one. So well tuned fuel injection in a car, you might see 20 mpg highway? That'd be better than my 305 ever got.

Let me know if you have any questions about BBC in 3rd gen. Don't worry about the exhaust system, its a piece of cake too.

Some pictures of my install.

acidpad

spifz, you are my hero. i was just going to go and settle for an lt1 swap and you posted that, you have restored my faith in a 454. i will probably be getting back ahold of you with a couple questions a little later, but for now, thanks for the info.

86 sc

hey spifz i to have been considering a bbc or a sbc i want to go bbc but every one keeps saying it's to heavy, have you noticed a problem if not are you running alumminum or iron heads, also what kind of rear do you have and most importantly what 1/4 mile et do you run!

Spifz

Now I don't want to give away all the fun details ;-p

I have iron heads, iron block, and had an iron intake manifold (49 lbs) With all that, yes, i probably added 150lbs to the front end over my stock 305. The ride height hardly changed at all in the front, I had to measure it to tell the difference (which I don't remember) Its hard to tell a difference in the handling, my car still turns like crazy. I have a Moser 9" ford in the rear, but I ran with the stock rear end with 3.08's for at least 2 months and didn't break it. (I was 18, so it couldn't have been because I was being nice to it...)

Now I have 3.50's in the rear with a detroit locker, and 275 width tires in the back. 1st gear is 3.27, and with a careful launch, and normal quick (not flat) shifts, I am sub 13. My backyard 1/4 mile strip was measured with a 500ft tape measure (took a while) and any errors involved with my 1/4 mile time are only due to stopwatch reaction time. I recorded a 12.5, but I would say all day 13's, and into high 12's to be safe.
My engine is very much stock. Its far from built for performance.
Just mad crazy torque from 1250 to 5500.

I think with aluminum heads and intake, the weight would be the same as a small block. Remember the big block has bigger cylinders and air doesn't weigh much If you got an aluminum block, you'd be under the original weight by far.

86 sc

cool

Meyaht

well all know what you really want..

you want the sony leonard pontiac 712 ci. engine for only $42,000

http://www.sonnysracing.com/engines_may_2001.html (bottom of page):hail: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :hail:

86 sc

dude that is pure power baby yeah!!!:rockon: :rockon:

87RS402

Getting anything to last behind a BBC is all in the drivers hands. If you try to destroy it you will eventually. After you pay for a few expensive items you'll be nicer to whats left and things will last longer.