zer0321

tell me all you know about this swap

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

To my knowledge it has never been done in a thirdgen. Most people doing a motor swap would opt for a V-8. Which probably can be had cheaper and easier than a 3800 Series II. Also consider than it has about the same HP and less torque than a 305.

I have never had a problem smoking a V-6 Camaro or Firebird with my 305TPI. Granted the 3800 Series II is a great motor. I don't know if you would have to do custom motor mounts or not. I also don't know if it would mate to your transmission. You would also need all the computer equipment from the donor car.

Then you would have exhaust issues to consider. If your sold on keeping a six I would use the Buick engine found in the GN/GNX and the Turbo Trans-AM. Theres alot more information on that swap and you would get a more powerfull combo good for the 11's with the right amount of boost.

Also consider this. What are your goals for the car? What do you hope to accomplish? Is this being done with a budget in mind? Are you just out to prove that it can be done?

If your looking for a go fast and cheap motor swap, Depending on how you answer those questions you may find that it is not worth the trouble to do what you are asking about.

zer0321

considered it, planned it out and then got stopped because of it not being legal (where I live anyways) to put an engine from an older car(86.87, or 89) into a newer one (92), lame huh..?

My goals are to have a daily driver that gets decent gas mileage, while still having moderate power, nice handling, and cheap insurance....while avoiding 305s/350s because everyone and their dog has one, I'm kinda wanting something that stands out a little, but still has some potential for aftermarket go-faster goodies I'm not too concerned about costs, just as long as its not ridiculously expensive..I know it would be cheaper to sell my car and buy a 4thgen 3.8 or a V8 thirdgen, but I've already got alot invested in this car, more than its worth, but that's what a project is all about

z28monster

iTrader: (1)

you could alwase put a 4.3 in it that is also a v 6 i guess you would still be being different beign its a 6 cylinder and also id think that a 4.3 swap would be alot easyer then the 3800 type 2 would be any day.

amish_Z28

Illegal to put an older motor into a newer car, I have never heard of anything like that in my life. The only v6 I would want would be out of a GNX or GN, or maybe a GTP grand prix, but thats just me.

OR.......

You could just supercharge the seriesII.......

.............that would work.


Why not try an LS1 or LT1 swap there is probably more info on those than a seriesII V6 swap?

wm_sorg

What a cool idea. There is a guy on another board who has a 12 second NA 4th gen v6 firebird. It would be worth it just for the fun factor. I am sure you can base mounts and trans off the parts used from the tt trans am or even a fourth gen setup.

I am sure these engined are relitively cheap compared to V8s.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

The LS1 swap is a good idea. Not to many people have done that and it would meet all your criteria. If you don't want to pay the insurance hike just don't tell them about it. They have to go on your VIN number. Never have I seen an insurance company ask me to pop the hood to have a look at what's really in there.

LS1 is going to get really good gas mileage. Not quite like the six. But pretty damn good. It would also be alot easier to do than to get that six in there. My $0.02.

BigErns90IrocZ

You can always do an L67(s/c 3800 from GTP) swap. I mean, the 3rd gen has a big enough bay, would just have to some custom work. The L67 has been stuffed into some weird cars, some guy has like a 91 or so Cavy with one.

Any swap is possible. Just matters on time, money, and what you want.

zer0321

Not a bad idea, but I fear my income would have a tough time supporting it, but hey maybe I can find a good deal

wm_sorg

Some of the 3800s are already supercharged. My friends parents had a supercharged 93 Buick Electra (saw one thin morning.) That car was a screamer.

Dennis91RS

ive seen that 3800 Supercharged motor stuffed into a fiero so in my opinion if you think it hell yes it can be done

zer0321

besides the eaton supercharger whats the difference between the L36 and the L67?

wm_sorg

Do you know what years they were produced. I know at some point GM introuced a counter balance shaft to reduce vibration. I think this happened in 89/90.

zer0321

so no one can think of a reason why this would not work?

wm_sorg

No. I think this would be a cool swap.

joezero

From my research on the topic here is what I gathered.

The 3.8 in the TTA and the 3800 series are different blocks so trying to use a bunch of TTA parts isn't going to help. Unlike the buick 3.8 the 3800 has different mounting points which means that you can't use the stock v6 mount locations. Both are 90 degree blocks which means new transmission as your 3.1L is a 60 degree block and thus a different bellhousing. When I inquired about the swap I was told that an LT-1 would be much easier. I definently understand your wanting to have something different, I wanted the same thing. I looked into turbo, S/C, and nitrous on my 2.8. I looked into a 3.4 L swap. In all of them it required radical modification and a guarantee that I'd blow my stock v-6 trans sooner rather than later. All of them had huge setbacks and all of them required almost all of the changes needed to go to a v-8.
So can you do a 3800 series motor? Sure. But for all the time and effort there are other swaps that can be had with better results. Heck, you could get an L98 from a corvette (or even just the aluminum heads with the vette valve covers) and poof, now you have a vette engine. Not a whole ton of people running around with those. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like what you're after is the shock value of having a faster car and telling people "it's only a six". That seems like the same reaction you'd get if you opened the hood and there was 'corvette' written all over the top of the engine. That's not to knock the 3800, it's a good engine.
As far as the turbo 3.8, you may want to double check your laws. Here in CA we have the same great ( ) laws, and probably even a few more. Sometimes there is a loophole that will allow you to put in an engine from the same body style as your car. So since 82-92 is considered the 3rd generation for f-bodies, they may allow you to use the engine from an 89 trans am. My ignition systems teacher told me there was somehow a way to even put like a 400 sbc into my car and have it be smog legal, tho I didn't quite understand how. The law is basicly intended to keep you from putting a blown 454 with holley carburators under the hood of a nissan sentra. If you could do that, maybe the import guys could keep up a little better.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do. I know I can't wait to do my swap this summer.

And if any of this is wrong, please let me know, it's been a while since I've looked into all of this.

Cronic3rd

All of the supercharged 3800s are FWD. FWD motors will not go into a rwd car the motor mounts are completely diffrent. You might be able to cram a RWD 3800 six into a 3rd gen with custom motor mounts but I think oyu will find the preformance severly lacking. Parts are gonna be more expensive and you will never have as much power as a comparable v8. Even a 305 will out preform a 3800.

zer0321

*

zer0321

I haven't physically checked this, but the people over at camarov6.com claim the 3800 seriesII to be a 90* motor with the 60* bellhousing pattern, so the problem is the 3.8 doesn't have a provision for a kickdown cable....so I'd either need to go 5spd or use an automatic trans from a 4thgen...still havent decided on this yet...

Longer91Cam

I do beg the differ on this one. My 91 camaro rs with a LO3 got beat by a v-6 firebird. Mine is a 5 speed and theirs was an automatic. I could hang with it for the first 3 gears then it took off and beat me by a cars length at least. THAT PISSED ME OFF!

Cronic3rd

yeah but an l03 is a crippled 305. My l03 bird was a turd but my 87 lg4 car hasn't lost to a 6cyl anything (I haven't raced a supra or 300zx yet ).

zer0321

I've heard the stock 4thgen 3.8 V6 cars with the 5spd can keep up with stock 305 guys, and I'm planning to do some mods too so.....

johnsjj2

I know you are planning on using a RWD version of the 3800. Keep in mind, if in the future you want to put the SC on it, aside from the CR difference, the rods, heads, and of coarse intake are all different. So, you would need at least the heads, and SC to make the swap. I ran into this when I wanted to put a SC on my Grand Prix. On the GTP engines, the intake makes up part of the head, like the 390 Ford, as well as others. On the N/A version, it is all separate. The rods swap would be up to you. Thrasher Performance makes a ton of go-fast parts for the L67, as well as the transaxle, which I know you wouldn't need. They have a guy running 11's in a Grand Prix.

JHens

here's a few things I know about 3800 series II's, I thought about swapping one in my grand prix for a long time, they have the same bell housing pattern FWD as 60V6 engines, so they can have the same transmissions, assuming FWD and RWD 60V6's have the same bolt patter, I'm not sure on this but It wouldn't make sens why they wouldn't. the main problem is that the throttle body is on the opposite side of the engine from the belts, fine for FWD, but it's a problem in RWD. Now it may be possible to rig up an intake that gets around this (I know f*rd mustangs with the 4.6 are like this, as are the supercharged one's and the lightning I'd assume, as they are the eaton M112) I don't think the starter on the opposite side is a problem, just re route the wiring. however with the $5k+ you'd spend on this swap I'd definately say it's not worth it. and $5k is a low estimate I came up with for my FWD Grand prix, and it would be even more for a RWD car I'd assume.

Cronic3rd

the 87 lg4 with flattop pistons. and a roller cam is. The flat tappet, dished piston lg4 is a dog. And any lg4 came with heads worlds better than LO3 swirlports.

Black363IROCZ

I dunno how often you guys keep up on the 3.8L, but I for one think they are underrated quite a bit. I know a few people running high 13s with a 3.8, 5-speed, 3.73s, and lid + cutout. it's no pushover, one guy with a V6 firebird came out racing and kicked two LT1 asses. he had a 14.2 sec timeslip in his car to, auto, stock converter, using 3.42 gears. more than enough to handle a 305 TPI.

wm_sorg

Some of the 4th gen guys are running low 12s with their V6 engines.

dennis6

People putting 3800SC in Fieros find it quite easy to get 300 hp out of the motor. As for the fwd, rwd issue all you should have to do is drill the starter mounts on the opposite side of the block. Not sure about the intake though.

Air_Adam

Correct me if I am wrong... but isn't the "L36" a Corvette 427ci engine from 1967?

Or do they use engine RPO codes over and over?

EDIT: Now I feel dumb... just remembered the LS6 and LT1 got re-used again in the '90s

Must be a re-used RPO.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

Any new status? I'm going to be doing this also. Motor mount brackets & getting y-pipe made should be the only engine related obstacles.

1)Why am I doing another 6cyl swap & not a V8?
2) What's wrong w/the 3.4 I just swapped in & am driving around right now?

1) I am getting a 95/96 engine, tranny, engine harness, ecm for $200. SOunds like a deal to me :rockon:

2) More power. My 99 GPGT is plenty fast for the family sedan, like stated earlier, how many 3800 Series II thirdgens are there?, and there are plenty of go fast goodies out there (more than the fulie 2.8~3.4 )
such as :
http://www.zzperformance.com
http://www.pfyc.com

both sites have goodies that can be used for both engines

http://www.tbyrnemotorsports.com/v6catalog.html


edit: also haven't read yet (sorry if skipped oer) but the 3800 Series II blocks are the same no matter if put in fwd or rwd cars. It's teh intakes & motor mounts that will dictake which direction it faces.