i was just wondering which big block would you suggest putting in a 90 camaro rs it has a 305 tbi in it right now.

 

Don't do it.....

I placed a 454 into my 86 IROC, and although I got it running real well.... I've had endless problems trying to get it inspected.

If you find some tech who doesn't know what their looking at (engine 'size' wise) like I did, then you'll be fine, but considering how much space the BB takes up.....

Go with a SB 427/454 set up via crate, and believe me.... you'l be much happier in the long run. You'll lose a little torque compared to the BB, but this can be made up with better gearing and/or a blower...

Good Luck!

 

As long as you keep all the emissions equipment from the Camaro and it passes the sniffer, it shouldn't be a problem.

Engine swaps to larger CI's are legal. Gotta read the fine print... Going with a truck engine would be a no-no... So if you use a truck engine just tell 'em it is a crate engine.

At least that is what I am doing with my '91 Caprice wagon.

 

The fine print states that you can swap to any engine the year of the car.... or newer. Plus, it has to be an engine that was offered in that model.

From 86 (my car's year) to 2002 (the last model).... the 454 BB was never offered as an option in the camaro, and the reason why it is illegal, is not because of the increase in cubic inch displacement, but because of the weight transfer. They feel that it will effect the drive-ability of the car.

Although I myself feel no difference, there is no changing there mind.... especially here in the Tri-State.

 

The fine print varies drastically from state to state, and sometimes even within a state. What you can get away with in Mississippi, you can't even cross the border into California with.

Find out exactly what you local laws are, pay no attention to what they are in some other place, because those people aren't the ones who decide whether you get to drive your car.

Personally, if I were to go to all the effort to swap a big block into my car, I'd go with the biggest one I could conveniently get, which would be a 454. If I had gobs of money to spend on a new motor I might get a 502. They're all the same on the outside, just like a 267 and 400 small block are the same size on the outside.

This is the single most popular actual "swap" (IMHO replacing a 305 with a 350 isn't a "swap") on this board. Use this button right here, it is your best friend. Several people have pics, links, parts lists, track results, etc. etc. etc.

 

Not necessarily....

The 400 SB has three freeze plugs on both sides of the engine, whereas the other's only have two.

This (along with the steam holes), is the best way to determine if you have a true 400 SB.

But as far as the actual size, yeah... the 267 through 400 are the same size, just not identical.

 

i vote dont do it too... if its a daily driver

i had 454 that i was gonna put in my 83z. after talking to people on this board and others, i decided to spend my money on my rs. but if you have a daily driver and this is going to be your project then go for it.

 

I read the laws from some of the most restrictive states before doing my BB swap (although I live in central IL and it isn't a problem) and from what I have read you are incorrect.

It only has to be and engine that was offered in that car IF you are swapping from another car. You should be able to use new crate engines w/o a problem. Think about it... otherwise you are saying it would be illegal to, say, drop a 2003 LS1 into a 1969 Camaro.

Also, weight as NOTHING to do with the swap. The only thing they are inspecting for is emissions. Truck engines have a totally different class of emissions that cars. So, technically, it is illegal to put any truck engine into a car (even though many years GM used the same basic 305/350 in their cars and trucks.

 

Exactly where am I incorrect?

What???

Oh really? Not all (especially BB engines) are smog legal via crate....

I've done it.

I am not saying this, you are! Dropping in an LS1.... into a non-computerized 69 camaro is VERY legal indeed (but this is off subject). We are talking about a 454 BB into 1990 camaro though (in which THIS chassis was NOT designed for it's torque, nor weight), aren't we?

Re-check with the EPA....

Wrong! If you'd like, I can post what the EPA (Enviromental Protection Act) faxed to me when I did my swap....

I know that....

Because most come diesel....

 

I love how people are trying to tell a NJ resident what the laws are in his state lol

dude I lived there for 20 years, NJ is a bitch when it comes to inspections...unless of course you have the hookup Shame I don't live in NJ anymore...


Personally I think visual inspection is ****in BS..who the hell cares what motor is in the car as long as it passes emissions. Another classic example of dumb**** politicians not knowing a ****in thing.


Back to the question at hand...don't do a BBC swap unless you're doing a track only car. It's a pointless swap for a cruise car that will see a lot of street time. You can get ample, streetable power out of a SBC..no need to dump a ton of $$ and time and end up with a bunch of headaches.

 

Why do people who have never even owned a 400 continue to post this sort of thing? As if that had anything to do with whether it would fit...

The truth is, the early 400 blocks, 70-72, had 3 freeze plugs in the side; those also mostly have 4-bolt main caps, and are the ones with the thinner webbing material cast around the mains. Here's a 73 400 block, 509 casting:

 

ok... first he said they were the same size.. ie, they have the same external size. you just repeat that after you spout what you "know" about 400s.



the BEST way to check if its a 400 is the CASTING NUMBER. short of pulling the heads and checking the bore.

 

RB.... I've owned 400 SB's, and I did not say that it wouldn't fit, only that they were not identical to the other blocks (appearance wise). Of course it will fit.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong... but I never seen a standard 400 block with only 2 freeze plugs per side.

Incidently, I've owned a 73 Monte Carlo with a 400 SBC, and it did have 3 freeze plugs per side. Whether it was an original 73 engine, or an extra 72 utilized by the factory, I don't know, but it was the original engine.

I'll get back to regarding the pic above.... thanks for posting it. BTW, are those the stock heads?

 

That's what I was trying to say.

If someone looked at a 400 SBC inside a 90 Camaro, it'd be impossible to tell if it were a 400 or not. There are certain things to look for, which will determine this (eg; I mentioned the freeze plugs).

As for RB stating that in 73, they offered the 400 with two freezeplugs per side... I'd like to research this, and if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

Very true...

 

Okay... first, lemme just say that 400 cubic inches, is 400 cubic inches. It does not matter where you obtain it, whether it's Chevy, Pontiac... or Mopar, they've all made 400 engines.

Second, if you wanna get right to it, GM stopped making 'true' 400's in 1972.... as what is pictured above is a 1973 2 bolt 350, with a bore and stroke increase from 4.00•3.48 to 4.126•3.75.

True 400's had 4 bolt main's, and three freeze plugs on each side of the block (different design to that of the 350). GM stopped production of that design of engine to save money. They utlized the standard 350 (2 freeze plugs on each side of the block, hence different design, hence different engine) although all parts do in fact inter-change....

So my OPINION <smile> stands, true 400's have three freeze plugs on each side of the block.

Basically what I'm saying is, during the three years of the 'true' chevy 400 engine (70-72), it utilized an additional three freeze plugs on each side of the block. This makes it a different design (obviously), and seperate from the other small blocks.

Even though everything inter-changes, and they are the same size.... it's a different design (although basically the same block in a whole).

 

If you do the math and the numbers come out at 400ci, then it is a 400 sbc

And I think RB knows what he is talking about... that pic he posted is his 400 small block.

 

lmao... where did you find this load of bullsh!t?!

if you got it from a website, can you tell us what one? the owner needs to fix is info.



one.. we are talking FIRST GENERATION SMALL BLOCK CHEVY. we dont have to put SBC after every mention of 400 block... its just implied most of the time here.


second. EVERY STOCK 400 small block chevy had a 4.125" bore and a 3.75 inch stroke.


do you even know what a freeze plug is from?

when they cast the block, the plugs are formed from where they are holding the molds....

so in other words, there were 2 diffrent castings for a 400 block.... they all ahve the same bore and stroke, and are totally diffrent blocks then the 350..


stop trying to be a dick thats always right, accept that there were other blocks, and learn. noone wants to hear you play simantics "oooh, theres 400s that arnt chevy.. oooh i did not have SEXUAL relations with that women... oohh"

 

It's funny.... you people judge knowledge by how many 'posts' one has. Unbelievable....

I never said that RB doesn't know what he's talking about, and just so you know Adam.... we're discussing the difference between the 400 BLOCKS (not bore) to the other small blocks.

If you have an opinion, then tell me.... if the 70-72 400 block is 'exactly' the same to the other small blocks, then WHY did GM offer them with 3 freeze plugs on either side, only to GO BACK to only 2 in 1973?

 

You know, my son reads these threads and enjoy's learning about cars. I can't believe that you would resort to this type of language.

Any respected moderator would remove this garbage. How old are you, 16? Grow up!

 

i dont.. i know a ton of people that have a higher post count then me that dont know dick.

all a post count is, is how much time you spend on the computer.. lol

i have a fact.. not a opinion.

the way they are cast is what makes the plugs.
they cast them diffrently later on. making the change.

 

im 21.

bullsh!t. =


i have yet to meet a mechanic that didnt swear.

your kid is going to have to live in a world where that language is used.. im sure you teach him to accept what others say, while teaching him not to speak that way....

the world is full of people that use "bad" words... if you dont teach him they're wrong, when he hears them, he'll use them. he needs to learn how to live in that world without using them.. sheltering him from it doesnt help the prob..

 

Enough arguing, I apologize if I sounded extreme, it just annoys me deeply when technically inaccurate stuff gets posted.

The block in the pic is indeed a "true" 400 block; I have no idea where it came from though. Some years back, my late little brother bought a 69 Chevelle SS396, and after he'd had it for a few days, he decided to see what was in teh trunk; and lo and behold, there was a second engine!! Improperly installed of course, but still. It was a block, all cleaned up and no paint, a little light rust but nothing terrible. He called the guy and asked if he wanted it; the guy goes "Is it a big block or a small block?" He told him it was a small one, the guy said no, he could keep it. So we got to looking at it, and it was a std bore 400, with the cyls in runnable condition. So there it is, still std bore; although I've put about 140,000 miles on it since then, and it's kind of getting around to needing bored. Not bad for a free block I suppose.

I can't imagine what about the later 509 casting is not a "true" 400, as opposed to the earlier 509 and 511 castings. It still has the same 4.125" bore, and the same siamesed cylinder assembly, and therefore the same need for steam holes. The later 509s are the ones with the more meat around the main webbing, that's considered more desirable for a high-HP platform, because it's much stronger with splayed 4-bolt caps than the early blocks were with the stock 4-bolt caps. Nothing about the block is a different "design" that I know of; just the typical slight differences between one casting and another that are so common through the years, and of course that one glaring external visual cue.

The heads are 186s; 69-70 double-humps, with bolt holes. So I guess they're "stock", just stock for something besides any 400.

 

same here... i was just even more annoyed when he kept on fighting fact with opinion.. *shrug*

 

That's all cool...

Keep your built SB that will not idle, hard to start, and overheats in traffic. Meanwhile, I'll have the same power, more torque, and a very docile BB.

Thatoneguy... Actually LOOK UP the emissions laws in your area and build to those rules.

 

strange... my old 82s 400 idled just fine, started with a flick of the key.... faster then my stock 91, and faster then any other FI car ive ever driven.... and it never overheated. heck, i had to swap the 160 thermo that i had gotten for the heck of it to a 180 just so it would warm up when im going down the hwy.


nothing wrong with big small blocks, or big blocks....


but you sir do have some misconceptions.....

for example, i would understand how you would expect a 450 hp 350ci engine to be more radical then a 450hp 454ci engine.... obviously one is more docile then the other.

but when the displacement is the same, whats the diff? build a 396BB and put it up agienst a compareable 400 SB.

the only real diff will be the fact that the small block weighs less, and can change the plugs easier.

 

Why would anyone do that?

 

heck if i know.... probly the same reasons people mod 305s....



but you see my point right?

 

Do the big block if you have patience.The only issues are fitting of the accesories and a custom y pipe. You can get stock BBC to make 500HP.Stock means cheap(just check ebay for BBC heads and youll see).The bigger engine making the same power as the smaller engine would be more docile and less stressed(generally speaking),which means increased reliability and streetability.A complete BBC is only around 100-150lbs heavier than a BBC.but you gain better flowing heads,bigger rods and better crank retention.Im still in the process of tuning my car but Im already driving it daily.

The hardest is to find a good complete motor.The rest is easy.BTW Dont listen to people saying that you cant drive it everyday,people that said it never owned one..I think Street Lethal doesnt own one either...lol

Daz

 

I forgot to say.When it comes to emissions,look for rules for "specialy cars/hot rods".There are places that have different rules for "custom cars".If not youre on your own...lol

Daz

 

All I was saying, is that a 400sb is a 400sb is a 400sb is a...

Wether it has 4 bolt mains, 2 bolt mains, 3 plugs, 2 plugs... whatever. Its still a 400sb if it has a 4-1/8" bore and a 3-3/4" stroke. And I know it has no relation to the 265-350ci engines, as far as the casting goes.

 

i thought that 400's were small blocks and 405 and up were big blocks... what does it matter about freeze plugs?!

 

They are easy enough to look up! Here is a good start...

http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/cleanair/

 

yep, and some inspection places do a visual inspection, it's not only emmisions.

 

big block and small block in the world of domestic V8s can be kinda confusing...

but atleast as far as chevys go.. big block motors and small blocks are totally diffrent designs.

so here the displacement has nothing to do with the name of it... the design does.

 

I never said they didn't do a visual inspection. I just said that the laws are not that hard to look up.

I would think that all the inspections in the same area would be the same, though, wouldn't they?

 

not all the time, depends what lazy *** guy you get inspecting your vehicle :sillylol: seriously.

 

well. lets see. its actually VERY simple.

the big block will be stronger and have MUCH better heads. meaning less cam is needed, which, again, means a better street motor. also, the big block has canted valves, which means much larger valve capacity, and better flow.

500hp 396 cube small block VS 500hp 396 big block, the big block will make much better torque, and idle, an drive much easier.

 

you DO know this thread is 3 years old, right? lol